3 questions about new installations & updates

[Liam Proven]

On 27 November 2011 20:33, Robert Holtzman <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 01:23:01PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 25 November 2011 23:11, Robert Holtzman <holtzm at cox.net> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 06:59:44PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>> >
>> >         .........snip.........
>> >
>> >> So, to answer #1, no, don't switch to Debian. It's less friendly,
>> >> rather more old fashioned and does not include useful things that
>> >> Ubuntu does. It also does not have a relatively friendly, welcoming
>> >> support community like Ubuntu. If you have to ask, you don't want it.
>> >
>> > First, Debian is no more or less "friendly" than Ubuntu, Ubuntu being an
>> > outgrowth of Debian...
>>
>> The point for Ubuntu's creation being that building a working desktop
>> out of Debian was too hard. It is much better now, but it's still not
>> as simple.
>
> Not sure what building you're referring to. The squeeze installation
> installed the Gnome desktop. It was fully functional at that point.

Erm, one of us is missing something here. Debian "Squeeze", i.e., v6,
came out in February. Ubuntu shipped in October 2004 when Debian was
on "Woody", v3, and was a *lot* more primitive than now.

Yes, *now* it's quite easy to install a standard desktop using Debian
- but it's had 5 or 6 years to catch up with Ubuntu by the time
Squeeze came out.

>> > and Debian's default Gnome 2.30.2 desktop is more
>> > like Windows than Ubuntu's Unity or Gnome 3.
>>
>> And this is an /advantage/, is it?
>
> It can make the transition easier for a windows user. Other than that,
> no.
>
>>
>> > Other than some proprietary drivers, what useful things does Debian lack
>> > that Ubuntu doesn't? The only thing I had to install was
>> > flashplugin-nonfree.
>>
>> Proprietary graphics-card drivers, proprietary wireless card drivers,
>> or a tool to install them?
>
> That's what I just said.

True enough, but without working networking, you can't install at all
from a "netinst" CD - you need a whole CD set or the DVD. And once
it's installed, without networking, you can't update or install new
packages - such as the additional drivers you need to get online.

>> Actual known named Mozilla apps, as opposed to renamed ones with the
>> icons changed?
>
> That's certainly not a show stopper.

No, it's not, but it's not very newbie-friendly. I get confused
between Iceweasel and Iceape and Icedove and so on myself!

>> > Squeeze (Debian 6.x) worked for me out of the box.
>>
>> Debian 6 won't recognise any of the PCMCIA *Ethernet* cards on my old
>> Thinkpad, let alone Wifi. It doesn't work with /wired/ Ethernet cards.
>> I had to get a USB Ethernet adaptor in the end. The 3rd or 4th one I
>> tried (I forget) worked. None of the others.
>
> Not to be snide, that's your problem. Probably hardware. I had no
> problems with wifi or ethernet.

Well, good for you! But it /is/ a problem and it's a biggie for
newbies. I read of enough people having problems with Ubuntu,
*especially* wireless connectivity; Debian is worse.

>> > The Debian support community is as welcoming as is Ubuntu's and about as
>> > populous.
>>
>> It must have changed dramatically in recent years, then.
>>
>> > As far as it's being friendly, check the debian-users archive
>> > and read the recent (current?) "Debian: A noob query" thread. The only
>> > thing I find lacking in the Debian-users list is the entertainment
>> > factor this list provides.
>>
>> I will!
>
> Now for the snide part. You might do a little research before firing up
> the FUD machine.

I didn't mean to spread FUD, honestly. I have been fiddling with
Debian myself since the late 1990s. I can get a useful server install
out of it, but I find it hard work to get a full, updated, current
desktop. I've lost count of the number of installs I've broken by
fiddling. I honestly don't think it's ready for nontechnical beginners
yet unless they get very lucky with their hardware.

For the sake of comparison, with my Simplicity Computers hat on, I
currently have 3 models of new hardware that neither Ubuntu nor Mint
will install and completely function on - 1 MSI notebook & 2 Asus
all-in-one touchscreens. In the past, as of the Ubuntu 10.04
generation, we've had to do custom tweaks to enable proper graphics
function, Java, Ethernet, WLAN and webcams, including shipping our own
custom-built kernels.

And that is on a base OS that makes a point of including binary drivers.

-- 
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
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