[OT] was Ubuntu has gone!

Thorny thorntreehome at gmail.com
Fri Apr 24 10:34:14 UTC 2009

On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:09:51 -0400, Michael Haney posted:

> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Thorny <thorntreehome at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:13:49 +1000, Res posted:
>>> On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Lucio M Nicolosi wrote:
>>>> (but not all) and most users do not trim their messages at all, while
>>> My pet hate is those who don't trim, but I don't go after those who
>>> don't do it, IMHO, top posting is no worse then those who bottom post,
>>> especially those who bottom post 3 words, making you scroll down 5
>>> pages of crap to read those 3 words.
>>>> a few overtrim to the barely understandable, like they were in a IRC.
>>> That is a danger, people when trimming often think the other person
>>> will know what you mean, when you have omitted just a tad too much, so
>>> long as there's enough there to the point of your comments it should be
>>> OK, but I do know what you mean.
>> Of course, that's why some of us use clients to read the list that show
>> the posts threaded and read them from first to last, rather than just
>> the last post of a thread.
>>>> It's a real mess, uncomfortable, really hard to follow and
>>>> collaborate.
>>> its been that way since day dot way back then...it'll never change.
>> That isn't true Res, in the old days there were fewer "newbies" than
>> "regulars" and lists and newsgroups "policed" themselves. People learned
>> to fit into a community's standards in order to get the community's
>> help. This is similar to the old saying, "when in Rome, do as the
>> Romans". Granted, I'm talking about the old days and what we have today
>> is a result of an increase of new inexperienced users looking for help
>> and some (perhaps many) list members who have an attitude that no one
>> should tell them how to act. So, it's not that it'll never change Res,
>> it already has, thus I think it could again. Or, at least shift some.
>>>> Thus I'm beginning to appreciate our (your) eventual fellow "nazis"
>>>> and their persistence in requiring good manners for those waiting at
>>>> the soup line.
>>> perhaps, but the danger lies within, you cant have a bunch of misfits
>>> deciding based on their personal beliefs what anyone else needs to do,
>>> moderation is why we have moderators :)
>> There is the code of conduct and mailing list etiquette for Ubuntu
>> lists. I'm not sure you want to call the people who set those, "misfits"
>> and since they were probably decided on by a committee, they likely
>> don't fit anyone persons "personal" beliefs exactly. However, there is a
>> framework of guidelines that people could follow most of the time and
>> advise others of in order to have efficiency and organization in the
>> list. I don't think there is much danger that the "enforcement" is
>> likely to be too rigorously applied any time soon. Not every person who
>> tries to inform people of list standards is being repressive, it just
>> isn't that "black or white".
>>> It is very childish of those who publicly state in here they refuse or
>>> may refuse to help someone just because that person top posts, I mean,
>>> most of us (I know not all, but the vast majority) are adults here, not
>>> 8yo's in a school playground, a lot of people in here need to seriously
>>> grow up.
>> How is that "childish". Adults in society have to follow laws and rules
>> all the time in order to take advantage of the services society offers,
>> it's more generally children who expect to demand and "get their way" as
>> a matter of "entitlement" and who have to learn how to fit in, or "grow
>> up".
> Excuse me, but it is childish.  I've seen people throw fits over top
> posting, like a child who throws himself to the ground crying, "No I won't
> help you until you bottom post, waaaa!"  Those people need to be wearing
> diapers.

Perhaps you have seen what you describe, that doesn't mean that all people
who make the suggestion to follow Ubuntu etiquette standards are all being
childish just because you have witnessed childish behaviour from some in a

> Its childish and petty to refuse to help a newbie because
> they're not following some set of rules you think everyone should follow
> but are not set in stone by the Admin.  Unless the Admin of this group
> sets such rules in stone they are suggestions only and "cannot" be
> enforced by anyone as "the rules".  

Suggestions from posters to follow the guidelines are just what they are,
suggestions. Not all posters make the threat you dislike, just some, and I
would think you would defend their freedom to do so. And, a community can
(and does all the time in meatspace), use social pressure to "enforce" the
"rules" it accepts as standards, it isn't always necessary to have "law
enforcement" involved. With freedom comes the freedom to choose who one is
willing to help. However, a point I've made several times is that by
structuring ones requests for help in specific ways one can greatly
increase the efficiency and quality of help one receives, that's the
reason for following standards, it's effective. The bottom line is that
when one wants help, one will probably be happier if one seeks help
efficiently or/and learns how to do so.

> Only Elitists use their opinions are
> justification to impose their will upon others. There is no room for
> Elitism in the Linux Community any longer, especially in a group founded
> on the philosophies of Ubuntu.

Exactly! Read what you wrote over again with an open mind.

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