[Media] 8.04 Servers - Wikipedia

[Knapp]

On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Steve Lamb <grey at dmiyu.org> wrote:
> Knapp wrote:
>> It involves learning a
>> whole new computer language and then writing the correct config file
>> using.
>
>    That's a few hairs over the hyperbole line, don't you think?  The Sudoers
> file is hardly a "new computer language".  It is a standard configuration
> file.  Now, if you had been talking about Sendmail's configuration I would
> have agreed with you since it is written the M4 scripting language.  ;)  But
> sudoers is a simple assignment with variable substitution.  Hardly anything to
> it.  The basics take maybe 5 minutes to grasp and another 5 to monkey poke it
> to taste.

Yes a bit. :-) But I will let this bit from the man sum it up. No one
that is not a programmer is going to read this and say, "Oh, ya,
obviously"

Here we override some of the compiled in default values. We want sudo
to log via syslog(3) using the auth facility in all cases. We don't
want to subject the full time staff to the sudo lecture, user millert
need not give a password, and we don't want to reset the LOGNAME, USER
or USERNAME environment variables when running commands as root.
Additionally, on the machines in the SERVERS Host_Alias, we keep an
additional local log file and make sure we log the year in each log
line since the log entries will be kept around for several years.
Lastly, we disable shell escapes for the commands in the PAGERS
Cmnd_Alias (/usr/bin/more, /usr/bin/pg and /usr/bin/less).

As a programmer, I read than and then drink some Coffee and then read
it again. Then look up all the things they are referencing and hope
that I understood it. How does anyone that is just some Joe off the
street make sense of that? You might ask why they would need to? Maybe
they are setting up a little home Apatchy server using OSCommerce to
sell plumbing equipment. They travel and use SSH to get onto their
home computer.

>> The problem remains unanswered but there is someone out there
>> that could answer it in 5 minutes and I don't have the time or the
>> will to do it. I know live with a small security hole in my computer
>> because of this but have decided to accept the risks.
>
>    Which is what?

I wanted to set it up so that users with sudo privilages that sign on
using their own normal name and password, the same one they would use
if sitting at the keyboard would not have Su or sudo privileges when
signing in using ssh. But that is a whole new thread. And as I said, a
small problem. On the other hand it could stop my server from getting
hacked through SSH, if there is ever a problem like that last one with
the faulty encryption.

>> To sum this all up, some people don't have the time or the will to
>> elevate themselves to computer guru levels. Sometimes you just need
>> the help of someone that has this notch on their belt. Sometimes you
>> are to busy doing what you are good at to learn something you are not
>> good at. This is why people come together and help each other. We are
>> each blessed with some skills being better than other and we share
>> them.
>
>    This is all true.  But that isn't to mean people who are under no
> obligation to help you at all are arrogant, rude, or otherwise unfriendly
> simply because they did not choose to answer your question in the manner that
> you wish it to be answered.  Key phrase in that sentence, "under no obligation".

If someone asks a question and someone writes back they are under no
obligations to do or say anything or be nice, but that does not mean
that it is nice or constructive to be rude, etc. My basic assumption
is that if I ask a question, I expect someone that can help and who
wants to help, to do so. All the others should keep their mouths shut,
if they just want to poke fun or show off etc. Obviously, we don't
live in this Nirvana.

>    Maybe it is the fact I have been a help-desk jockey for far more years
> than I wish to contemplate that I can understand the distinction.  It boils
> down to this.  If you are one of my customers and you call in for support on
> one of my company's products I am required to help you beyond any reasonable
> expectation.  Even simple questions that can be answered with a quick search
> and find of the documentation loaded onto every install has to be answered
> promptly, courteously and with a good measure of humor and grace.
>
>    At home, on this list and other lists/forums I am not obligated to answer.
>  When I choose to answer I am not obligated to provide answers to simple
> questions answered by an obvious 2-3 word Google query and 5 minutes of
> reading.  I choose which questions I want to tackle and I choose the manner in
> which I tackle them.  If I can find the answer using 2-3 words the author
> themselves have used and 5 minutes of reading an article or two out of the top
> 10-15 hits from Google you can bet they're not going to be told what the
> answer is.  They're going to be told how to find the answer because, in the
> long run, that saves them time.

I myself am good with Google, but not everyone is. I still have had
times where I googled for like 2 hours and then asked a question only
to be told that I should Google it (really, no exaggeration, this was
on IRC). I then asked what I should Google under. I got an answer that
is nothing like what I was trying and it worked. The long and the
short is that sometimes we all need help with things that sound stupid
to others.

This list expects you to treat people just like you would at work. If
you can't then don't write. As you said at work you must write but
here, if you don't want to help then don't. For sure don't help and be
rude about it because you know you can get away with it and you are
not being payed. When people write open source software they don't do
a half ass job just because they are working for free. Answering
questions is the same!

>    Arrogant though it may seem to some people I honestly feel that is the
> beth method of answering certain classes of questions.  Conversely if that
> search has been done and the person indicates they have done the research and
> explain on what concept they are getting stuck I'm more apt to try to clarify
> what they're having a problem with and also provide the solution complete with
>  the thought processes leading to that conclusion.

True that is best but it is yet more Nirvana. Some people are hungry,
dumb, crazy (medical condition), on drugs (legal and otherwise)
sleepy, mad, depress and just can't write. (Scary part is they drive
cars too) Some don't know enough to know where to look. How many times
have you seen the Subject to be something like, "newbie question". Ya,
lots and I think it is totally stupid but mostly I don't get up and
tell the other person how stupid it is. I might suggest that next time
they write something better and give them an example.

I used to be a teachers assistant at a local community college for a
basic computer class. I was shocked at how many people can't use a
mouse. More can't type at all. Ever watch a person try and use a mouse
for the first time? They get to the bottom of the desk and keep having
to pick it up and stuff, really pathetic. I had one man whose fingers
and hands where to big for the keyboard! Remember not everyone is on
your level but they still might need to use Ubuntu. What do you think
about a person who had to take 10 minutes just to type the message you
are reading? Want to find out? Turn your computer on and set it to
Dvorak keyboard and answer this email (Assuming you don't know it).

>    Never forget that the help offered here is offered for free by volunteers.
>  If one wants to be so crass as to assign a price to it then here's my pricing
> structure.  If you want complete answers you have to pay me by having done
> some research and attempted to noodle it out on your own.  If you want a
> partial answer maybe indicating you tried a search and found nothing.  If you
> want no answer, don't try to answer it yourself.  You get the same effort from
> me as you have put into it yourself.  No effort from you, no effort from me.
> Lots of effort from you, lots of effort from me.  It may sound arrogant but
> really, the more effort you put into solving a problem the less it seems like
> you're here for actual help vs. here to have a servant do things for you.  I
> don't think that asking people put time into their own problems before asking
> other people to spend their time is unreasonable, arrogant, or rude.  It is,
> to me, the core of what one would call community.

My question to you is, why do you help people here at all? I do it
because I like to help people and to promote Linux IE open source,
something I believe will truly help the world to be a better place in
some small way. In the end people on this list give because it makes
them feel good. That is a sort of payment.

>         Steve C. Lamb         | But who can decide what they dream

-- 
Douglas E Knapp

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