GuTSy is slow!

[Mario Vukelic]

On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 10:02 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:

> Great idea.  I'm really not stupid Mario.  I did that.  It got
> reinstalled...

I know that you aren't, that's why it annoys me so that you pretend that
removing the packages is impossible. How where they "reinstalled"? Must
have been depended on by another package, I and I'm pretty sure you know
that. Please explain if I misunderstand.

> What on earth makes you think I did that?  That's my complaint.  It should
> be possible with all the (very smart) hardware identification we have, for
> those things to only be activated if the hardware is there. 

Sorry I misread and was harsh.

>  I have two
> laptops without bluetooth, and the damn things are still running the
> bluetooth daemons.

So the solution is "fix/add the detection code and just run when
hardware is there". I may have misread your statements as arguing for
not defaulting to use these services altogether, which IMO would be
misguided.

Still, how hard is it to click menu System | Administration | Services,
and remove the check mark from "bluetooth management"? Which immediately
shuts down the daemons on my machine. The applet can be removed from
startup in System | Preferences | Session (where, incidentally, you can
also disable trackerd).

> Absolutely.  The point is that there was an almost working solution, and it
> was replaced by another _almost_ working solution that was vastly more
> complex.  I've got no problem with adding complex solutions if they improve
> on the simple ones, but it hasn't happened in this case.

Sorry, but editing /etc/networking/interfaces and playing with
wpa-supplicant was so far from an "almost working" solution it's
laughable. It was perfectly usable for server admins, and ok for linux
geeks, and ok for users with a plugged-in desktop machine. It sucked for
everyone else.

NM "just works" for vastly more people of the type who need this
property most, because they otherwise can't help themselves. I agree
that NM should work better, but in Gutsy it has improved greatly for me.
In any case, the solution is to fix remaining issues, not to get rid of
it. 

> > And I really don't know wtf you are bitching about. 
> 
> I wasn't.  I was explaining why the other poster might reasonably see NM as
> a problem. 

Well, you will understand that words such as these can easily be
understood as bitching instead of explaining the other poster's POV:

"But they're still there.  Like ttf-baekmuk!  It's bloat taken to the
logical limit when it seems drive space is limitless.

How about bluetooth?  I _can't_ manage to turn that off.  How about the
ridiculous network notification daemon, which makes it impossible to use
konqueror to browse a localhost website, unless you're actually
connected to the Internet"


> You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. 

Please explain.

>  I've used _all_
> the alternatives.  NM is the best of a bad lot.  As I said in a prior post,
> I use it and I like it, but I can well understand why many don't, and for a
> desktop machine, it _should_ be possible to use the much
> simpler /etc/network/interfaces method 

But that's what I said. Define the interface in /etc/network/interfaces,
and NM will leave it alone.

> and never even start NM - _without_
> needing my level of expertise.

IMHO no, they should not. They should be provided with a working NM that
does all they need as transparently and efficiently as possible. 

The thing is, I reacted so harshly because I am sick of an opinion that
I (subjectively) notice increasingly more often on the list, namely that
Ubuntu was too "bloated" and should be more efficient, or configurable
(but with GUI), or whatever. I thing that such a direction would not be
in the interest of Ubuntu's targeted user group, and not in mine
either. 

You did not address this point of mine:

> > It's the logical result of a distro working automagically in all
> > circumstances.

I should have added "... as long as it isn't perfect". I say, of course
bluetooth should only be started if the hardware is there. Of course it
would be nice if NM did not load any code needed only for wireless
cards, when the NIC is plugged in. Etc. But I think Ubuntu should
continue to be as inviting and simple as possible for those that need
it. It has little need to expose lots of configuration options to users,
but it should be configurable for those who want to edit files and run
command lines. However, those who want leanness and configurability more
than anything, could you please move to another distro like Gentoo or
Debian and stop trying to ruin, for me, a distro that I chose because it
"just worked"? I don't think Ubuntu deceived anyone in its ambitions and
direction. It was never looking like it would be a roll-your-own type of
distro. And I like it.

Hugs
Mario