Transparency, Community? (was Re: List-Id Changed why? )

Cybe R. Wizard cybe_r_wizard at earthlink.net
Wed Aug 30 22:38:34 UTC 2006


Derek Broughton <news at pointerstop.ca>  said:

> Matthew East wrote:

> > Please don't react so strongly to this - there are more important
> > things to focus on in the Ubuntu community. There is no stifling of
> > discussion, it is simply made clear that there are two lists for
> > two purposes -
> 
> No, it is NOT "simply made clear", and I'm as annoyed as Peter.
> Nobody consulted US, the users of this list.  Instead, you
> unilaterally decided to change it.  What the Ubuntu Community Council
> has to say about the lists is not relevant - they are an advisory
> body, and not the list community.

Total agreement from me.  Unilaterality in a community that calls
itself the distro for human beings is not a good idea.  Humans talk.
They may talk about anything.  That's called "user discussion."  If it
tkes place here a pointer to sounder is a good idea.  Changing things
around with no warning whatsoever is not a good idea and at least one
of us has already pointed out at least one good reason why the change
is not for the better; Palm displays.  Derek and I now point out more
reasons.  There will probably be more to come.
> 
> > discussion of Ubuntu related topics should take place on the sounder
> > list, while technical support should take place on this list.
> 
> That's what _you_ think.  It's not what most of the users of this
> list have expected for the years I've been here.
> 
Yep, it was at least a year for me before I even heard of sounder.  I'm
sure there are a lot of GNUbies in that same boat.  Besides, have you
seen the traffic on sounder?  Why would anybody use it when no one else
does?

> > You've 
> > suggested the list subscribers should be consulted, but that's
> > frankly not very realistic in circumstances where there are
> > thousands of subscribers, and people will simply not agree. 
> 
> Of course it's realistic.  You don't need agreement - you need a
> reasonable consensus and a warning that the change is coming.
> 
DANG!  Again I cannot argue with that.  It would seem that
communication is almost /always/ a good idea.  I know it has worked
out that way for me for numerous decades.

> > The delineation as 
> > described in the etiquette page, as approved by the Community
> > Council, seems to me to be the
> 
> I'm getting really damned annoyed about the jackboots in the Ubuntu
> Community.  First, it's yell "Code of Conduct" at anybody who gets a
> little hot; then it's change the list description when people point
> at it as validation of their post's content.
> 
The term, "heavy-handed" comes immediately to mind.  Will brown shirts
be far behind?
> > 
> > If you've got any more concerns about this subject, I think the best
> > place to discuss it would be at a Community Council meeting, or on
> > the sounder list (included in this mail). Please continue the
> > discussion there.
> 
> yeah.  Typical customer service response: "It's not my fault, it's
> policy. No, sorry, you can't talk to my supervisor".
> 
> And no, I will NOT continue the discussion there.  This change of
> policy is relevant HERE, not the community council and not sounder.

This is starting to sound a /LOT/ like the Libranet Linux list just
before most all of the community helpers gave it up; folks with
offensive .sigs, others with no forgiveness in them, then the Powers
That Be decided to censor any OT discussion or disagreement.  Thereby
they lost virtually all of their volunteer help givers.  Really, who
that is worth a tinker's damn will stay under those conditions?   I
wouldn't and I'm really considering whether or not I will stay here and
with Ubuntu.  A bad rep for stifling freedom of speech, especially when
the speech is friendly, is death to a distro. For instance, were I to
feel the need to leave I would definitely /NOT/ recommend Ubuntu to
anybody any more and would probably go out of my way to tell the sad
tale of why, too.

I really hope that doesn't have to happen.

Please, let's all just try to get along.  After all, we /are/ all human
beings, are we not?

Cybe R. Wizard
-- 
Press 'START' to stop
	Winduhs




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