Using Ubuntu absolves the user of personal responsibility?
Gilles Gravier
Gilles at Gravier.org
Thu Aug 3 14:34:32 UTC 2006
Hi,
Alexander Skwar wrote:
> Gilles Gravier <Gilles at Gravier.org>:
>
>> So Michael got the spirit of the response, though not the words. :)
>>
>
> No, Michael did NOT get the spirit of the message. He invented something,
> as he's annoyed by me, or something like that.
>
Up to the "you moron" he had the spirit. Granted the last 2 words
destroy the spirit as well.
>> I really think that in many cases, giving the immediate answer helps a lot.
>>
> Disagreement. It doesn't help, it's actually bad help, as people
> might not understand what they're actually doing.
>
It's good that people disagree. It fosters discussion.
> Eg. somebody might suggest to read the mail from root by doing
>
> sudo rm -rf /
>
Practical jokers tend to get away with it one time... then nobody
listens to them.
On the other hand, one could answer to that same "mount an ISO file"
with "please google "horseback" and "dump"" and that would also lead the
user on a useless treck.
> If people get into the habbit to just copy'n'paste a command, they
> might get hurt.
>
Agreed. Or in following blindly ANY kind of advice. See above example.
>> Let's be realistic, many of the Ubuntu users don't really WANT to be
>> techies... Ubuntu is "Linux for human beings"... not for geeks.
>>
>
> Fine.
>
>
>> So don't try to make a geek out of every user who asks a question.
>>
>
> I don't.
>
But you try to make them an educated Linux user / admin (mount isn't for
users, it's for admins)...
>> Those
>> who want to be geeks, once they see the mount -t iso9660... answer will
>> go and man mount to learn more.
>>
>
> Or they might not, as the command works right away. It's much more
> straight forward, to point people to the documentation, so that they
> can find out for themselves what to do.
>
If they want to learn, they will. If they don't want to, they won't. And
if they are discourraged by having to go search for information
somewhere on the web, they might remove Ubuntu and re-isntall Windows.
>> I think it is important that in the non geek population of people who
>> try out Ubuntu (instead of Windows), we make their life easier... Not
>> their study of Linux, some of them don't care, just as they don't care
>> how the internals of Windows XP tick... so giving the immediate answer
>> let's them continue happily with their test of Ubuntu (instead of giving
>> them the message of "you can't find it by yourself, so go back to
>> Windows" - which they might).
>>
> I did NOT give that message.
>
You did not INTEND to give that message. But think how the person who
wrote the question felt when reading the answer? And look how many
people interpreted it that way. (Not necessarily as "go back to Windows"
but at least not feeling helped by the community as much as they could.)
>> We want more people on Linux... and yes, newbies as well. In fact, the
>> more newbies on Linux, the more we get newbie questions that help us
>> make Linux a more newbie and grandmother friendly operating system.
>>
> Hm. That might be VERY arguable if "we" really want that.
>
>
At least, it would let the user chose between user friendly admin, and
command line admin... when Windows makes that choice hard.
>> No
>> way am I going back to Yggdrasil.
>>
>> Oh.... and... as Michael points out... if you do find a newbie question
>> irritating, why not take a deep breath, and let somebody less irritated
>> by it answer it. While I certainly find that when you go into details
>> your posts here are extremely valuable, I would prefer less drama and
>>
>
> NOW: *I* did not make a drama here...
>
>
But your post generated a lot of drama from the group.
>> more direct help to the newer users. Let them learn at their pace.
>>
>
> I do let them learn at their pace. But I reserve the right to
> point people to the documentation, if I know where the documentation
> is.
>
>
Yes. Point them to the documentation... As I posted elsewhere, I would
give the immediate answer and a more educational pointer to
documentation in the same post. But different approaches from different
people. I suspect we won't agree on this one.
Gilles (now going back home).
--
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