Debian Unstable vs. Ubuntu

[Rami Kayyali]

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:56:32 -0800, Matt Zimmerman <mdz at ubuntu.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 12:14:12PM +0200, Rami Kayyali wrote:
> 
> > I didn't know that JEdit doesn't exist in Debian either, except that as
> > far as I know, Debian's universe is much larger than Ubuntu's, I might be
> > wrong though.
> 
> Ubuntu includes all of the packages available in Debian, and more from other
> repositories, at least in source form.  A number of them don't build
> correctly, and need to be fixed.
> 
> > My gripes with Ubuntu:
> > - To some degree, there's certain incompatibility with Debian
> > packages, I can't use Debian's repositories in Ubuntu and sleep sound.
> 
> Our intention is that it should be unnecessary, as we provide all of the
> software from Debian directly.
> 

Then why the double work? Why not be very compatible with Debian, but
still provide cutting-edge packages?

> > - Too many Ubuntuized packages? Why not just merge with Debian?
> 
> Debian and Ubuntu are separate projects because they have different goals,
> and approaches to pursuing them.  It could as easily be asked why Debian
> doesn't merge with Fedora.
> 

Well, I don't think you could discuss merging Debian and Fedora, since
both are of very different natures. However, you could discuss merging
Fedora with Mandrake for instance. If Ubuntu could be somehow merged
with Debian, I think we wouldn't have the need to do the work others
have done before. It's a combination of efforts.

Keep in my mind, that I haven't heard any reasoning on why Ubuntu
shouldn't be merged with Debian, or why not just track Debian and
provide extra packages from a certain repository that would generate a
Debian => Ubuntu desktop while still maintaining close ties to
Debian's own repositories.

I'd say the exact thing if somebody talk Fedora and developed a newer
Linux called Cabantu, I'd ask why is there to many Cabantuized
packages rather than just merging with Fedora's RPMs; just an
off-topic note.

> > - Still very small in comparison to other free (as in beer) Linuxes
> > (Fedora, Slackware, Knoppix, etc.)
> 
> Small in what way?  The community has grown very quickly and continues to
> expand, and in terms of the amount of packaged software available, Ubuntu is
> possibly the largest.
> 

Small as in popularity, number of experienced sysadmins (although that
fact that Ubuntu is based on Debian minimizes that effect), books and
coverage.
However, I totally agree that Ubuntu is growing fastly enough, and I'm
expecting it to hit the Debian-Desktop market hard. At least for what
I know is that most of the current "user-friendly" Linux desktops
simply suck.

Give Ubuntu a better-looking installer, some cool graphics, and you
have the desktop market for Ubuntu.

By the way, I really love the current installer. It doesn't ask many
questions, it does almost everything right from the first boot, it
installs and boots *way* faster than a Fedora box, and it's completely
useable in almost no time, without a huge amount of useless packages.

Many say that Ubuntu "forces" its own choices. If you ask me, by all
means do that. The desktop doesn't need tons of questions, and
nitty-gritty details about every other little aspect of the system.
Users need simplicity, they just want a system that works (trust me,
this is the only thing that got me to try Ubuntu and ditch Gentoo for
a while, the fact that I got the system up and running in less than 10
mins).

> > - Lack of proper documentation. Like I couldn't find any description
> > of the kernel's available with stock Ubuntu.
> 
> We have an excellent documentation team who discuss and prioritize these
> issues.  They can be found on the ubuntu-doc mailing list.
> 

Well yes, the team is probably excellent, but what about the
documentation? All Ubuntu has right now is a bunch of HOWTOs, some
"unofficial" Ubuntu guide, and fairly small-to-medium user forums. I
know it's great to have a question answered immedietly, but I'd still
love to find it myself in a manual or a book, you know, just in case
:)

To be fair though, I'm quite astonished with how this thread is going.
I love the intelligent remarks, the non-flamable replies, and that
everyone knows that if we're discussing this, then it's only for the
better of Ubuntu; it's called constructive criticism. You guys just
don't know how rare this is. I can't stop liking Ubuntu. Like many
people said, it's not just the quality, it's the whole end-to-end
experience (downloading => installing => finding help => getting
things to work => etc....)

> --
>  - mdz
> 
> --
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> ubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com
> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
> 


Thanks again
-----
Rami Kayyali