[Ubuntu-US] Ubuntu-us Digest, Vol 5, Issue 4
Dan Shufelt
dshufelt at gmail.com
Tue Sep 11 00:26:17 BST 2007
Everyone,
I don't think I was the fellow to bring this idea up but it could have some
benefits. First, if we were to start a us based Shipit then we could accept
donations and second, some organizations are sticklers for paper work and
won't accept your non-profit applications with out having the legal papers
filed.
Generally I am entirely against bringing $$ in to the loco / lug scene this
is mostly because I don't see how the benefits would justify the headache.
I realize that the US Teams is a mentoring project however I don't think
such an idea should be completely ruled out if a few people want to do a
little leg work to find out what it would take and what some of the benefits
would be.
Again, finances (outside of my own personal) scare me and generate allot of
paperwork but I am willing to listen to the idea (perhaps given a different
forum and some input from the Community Council).
Best regards,
Dan Shufelt
On 9/10/07, ubuntu-us-request at lists.ubuntu.com <
ubuntu-us-request at lists.ubuntu.com> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Accounting Question (Chris Rohde)
> 2. Re: Accounting Question (Christer Edwards)
> 3. Re: Accounting Question (Martin Owens)
> 4. Re: Accounting Question (Chris Rohde)
> 5. Re: Accounting Question (Aaron Toponce)
> 6. Re: Accounting Question (Chris Rohde)
> 7. Re: Accounting Question (Martin Owens)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 17:21:00 -0400
> From: Chris Rohde <veritastic at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Ubuntu-US] Accounting Question
> To: US LoCo Teams <ubuntu-us at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID: <46E463BC.8060200 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hey folks,
> I don't remember who I was talking to last week, I believe it was
> dshufelt, but we were discussing the possibilities of a blanket
> organization for a 501c3, handling the money for approved US Teams.
> I was entirely against this, as I am an accountant by trade and I know
> exactly how ludicrously difficult it would be to track the financials
> for the entire country without a solidly built system and tight controls
> in place. I am still not sold on the idea, but I am, in the interest of
> my own sanity, drafting a battle plan should the decision be made to go
> ahead with the plan to form a national blanket 501c3...
> I am, of course, also writing up a bit of a how-to as far as basic team
> accounting would run should a team decide to form their own organization
> as recommended by the wiki documentation. I will get these out to the
> list here sometime in the next week when I find the time to finish them.
>
> I just wanted to know the status of everything, as far as blanket org
> goes, and if there are, by any chance, any other accountants within the
> US Teams web of contacts. lol.
>
> Anyway, thanks, and I eagerly await any input anyone can offer.
>
> Chris (bordy)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 18:58:07 -0600
> From: Christer Edwards <christer.edwards at ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US] Accounting Question
> To: US LoCo Teams <ubuntu-us at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID: <20070910005806.GA7907 at localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Sun Sep 09, 2007 at 05:21:00PM -0400, Chris Rohde wrote:
> > Anyway, thanks, and I eagerly await any input anyone can offer.
> >
> > Chris (bordy)
>
> The only input I'm going to offer into this is that the US Teams Project
> has no interest in forming
> or running a blanket organization for the national teams. Whether this be
> financial or legal. I
> understand that a few teams have run into issues on the matter but the
> current stance is that those
> are issues for teams to work out individually. As it stands currently the
> LoCo Project and the US
> Teams Project, including individual teams, should be able to do their
> advocacy without the need of
> funds.
>
> I appreciate your work Chris (bordy) in preparing something
> preemptively. If / when the time comes
> that we need something I'm sure we'll look into your expertise. In the
> meantime, again, I want to
> reitterate that it is not something required of any established or growing
> team to need funding or
> liability protection. I don't want talk like this to put off growing
> teams. I don't want fledgling
> teams thinking they are not able to function without something like this
> in place.
>
> I appreciate everyone's hard work. I think we are seeing fantastic
> success. I am glad to be part
> of this project and love to see initiative like this. Thank you again
> bordy for trying to do the
> responsible thing and at least put some research into the idea.
>
> Christer Edwards
> Founder, Utah Team
> co-founder, US Teams Project
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 21:46:11 -0400
> From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US] Accounting Question
> To: "US LoCo Teams" <ubuntu-us at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID:
> <69ff73b20709091846r7b4baa97y696de62ff41dd42a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> > The only input I'm going to offer into this is that the US Teams Project
> has no interest in forming or running a blanket organization for the
> national teams. Whether this be financial or legal.
>
> That is true, but...
>
> > I understand that a few teams have run into issues on the matter but the
> current stance is that those are issues for teams to work out individually.
>
> That sounds a lot like a wash you hands of the problem sort of stance.
>
> > As it stands currently the LoCo Project and the US Teams Project,
> including individual teams, should be able to do their advocacy without the
> need of funds.
>
> And that is just naive; I understand people are far more important
> than money, but to be honest failing to have the information and
> guides in place for each of the teams is worse than just being
> ignorant. There are so many things that teams want to do that require
> money; they require pooling of money and sorting out and organising
> everything; we can't afford to not keep records of this sort of thing
> regardless of our status as an 'organisation'
>
> > I appreciate your work Chris (bordy) in preparing something
> preemptively. If / when the time comes that we need something I'm sure
> we'll look into your expertise. In the meantime, again, I want to
> reitterate that it is not something required of any established or growing
> team to need funding or liability protection.
>
> You tone makes me feel like your giving up on the US teams, not only
> that but the attitude your showing Chris is quite extraordinary; Why
> not just say you think he sucks? I mean he's trying to help make
> information available and didn't ever suggest some of the things you
> seem opposed to and yet your on the attack. *sigh*
>
> > I don't want talk like this to put off growing teams. I don't want
> fledgling teams thinking they are not able to function without something
> like this in place.
>
> You shouldn't remove their ability to learn about proper accountancy
> for small teams either; don't be so harsh on the idea of recording the
> flow of money in a team it can save a lot of problems later on.
>
> I think we may need to talk about this issue further because all of
> what I just read in your message was so negative and depressing and I
> think your so against having Ubuntu-US as an organisation that it's
> making you reject other important organisational information.
>
> Best regards, Martin Owens
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:16:02 -0400
> From: Chris Rohde <veritastic at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US] Accounting Question
> To: US LoCo Teams <ubuntu-us at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID: <46E4A8E2.3000402 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hey Gents,
>
> I didnt mean to start an argument here, and I am in no way trying to
> preemptively guide strategy for an organization which I am neither in
> control of or able to influence in any significant way. I didn't want to
> step on any toes.
>
> My whole goal here, is that in the event that something along these
> lines ever comes to be, I'd like to know I was able to do my small part
> to side-step the inevitable headaches associated with this sort of
> accounting, especially when dealing with so many people who have
> absolutely no accounting experience (since it may not seem it, but is a
> gigantic step away from personal accounting).
>
> I will carry on finish out this plan, and the walkthrough for easy
> accounting for individual teams as well, regardless of the outcome here.
> I think it will be able to help people, from what I've seen.
>
> Thanks folks!
> Chris Rohde
> http://veritastic.net
>
>
> Martin Owens wrote:
> >> The only input I'm going to offer into this is that the US Teams
> Project has no interest in forming or running a blanket organization for the
> national teams. Whether this be financial or legal.
> >
> > That is true, but...
> >
> >> I understand that a few teams have run into issues on the matter but
> the current stance is that those are issues for teams to work out
> individually.
> >
> > That sounds a lot like a wash you hands of the problem sort of stance.
> >
> >> As it stands currently the LoCo Project and the US Teams Project,
> including individual teams, should be able to do their advocacy without the
> need of funds.
> >
> > And that is just naive; I understand people are far more important
> > than money, but to be honest failing to have the information and
> > guides in place for each of the teams is worse than just being
> > ignorant. There are so many things that teams want to do that require
> > money; they require pooling of money and sorting out and organising
> > everything; we can't afford to not keep records of this sort of thing
> > regardless of our status as an 'organisation'
> >
> >> I appreciate your work Chris (bordy) in preparing something
> preemptively. If / when the time comes that we need something I'm sure
> we'll look into your expertise. In the meantime, again, I want to
> reitterate that it is not something required of any established or growing
> team to need funding or liability protection.
> >
> > You tone makes me feel like your giving up on the US teams, not only
> > that but the attitude your showing Chris is quite extraordinary; Why
> > not just say you think he sucks? I mean he's trying to help make
> > information available and didn't ever suggest some of the things you
> > seem opposed to and yet your on the attack. *sigh*
> >
> >> I don't want talk like this to put off growing teams. I don't want
> fledgling teams thinking they are not able to function without something
> like this in place.
> >
> > You shouldn't remove their ability to learn about proper accountancy
> > for small teams either; don't be so harsh on the idea of recording the
> > flow of money in a team it can save a lot of problems later on.
> >
> > I think we may need to talk about this issue further because all of
> > what I just read in your message was so negative and depressing and I
> > think your so against having Ubuntu-US as an organisation that it's
> > making you reject other important organisational information.
> >
> > Best regards, Martin Owens
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 21:49:28 -0600
> From: Aaron Toponce <aaron.toponce at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US] Accounting Question
> To: US LoCo Teams <ubuntu-us at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID: <46E4BEC8.4070907 at aarontoponce.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> This has been discussed on and on and on. Here are the reasons why this
> is not appropriate for this project:
>
> 1) As a state-run LoCo team, they have the opportunity if they wish to
> go after that status. It is up to that individual team, and not this
> mentoring project, to look for financial help/protection.
>
> 2) 501c3 status from a national standpoint doesn't make a lot of sense
> anyway. Each state has different laws concerning how funds can be
> distributed and handled within the organization. Creating a national
> blanket would only create problems internally and complicate matters
> between teams.
>
> 3) The mentoring project is about getting approved LoCo teams in each
> state. Not about providing legal protection. Not about providing tax
> breaks. If someone or some team wants 501c3 protection, this project is
> not the channel to go through. Canonical would be the appropriate means
> of getting something like that accomplished.
>
> If a new team, say a US Legal Team or US Tax Team needs to be created
> within Ubuntu, then great. It will not be a part of this project. We
> are about states helping states. We are about recruiting members. We
> are about advocacy. We are about install fests. We are about community
> involvement. We are not about financial help. We are not about tax
> breaks. We are not about legal protection.
>
> However, I see no need for such a blanket. For several years, LUGs and
> SIGs have operated just fine without any of this. I understand that
> there have been isolated incidents where investors would not help fund
> an install fest, because the LUG/SIG did not have that status. However,
> these cases are the extreme minority. I have yet to hear of any LUG/SIG
> needing legal help.
>
> So, again, if a state wants it, that state can get it. If a new Ubuntu
> team should be created, then great. However, there will be no
> accounting or legal team or council in the US Teams Mentoring Project.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> _
> Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign
> www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org
> / \
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 00:38:05 -0400
> From: Chris Rohde <veritastic at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US] Accounting Question
> To: US LoCo Teams <ubuntu-us at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID: <46E4CA2D.40805 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it seem this is bringing up
> much more animosity than is necessary?
>
> I for one am generally against the idea, but all I wanted to do was to
> provide a bit of guidance just in case it went through (I have been
> unable to follow many meetings given my ridiculous schedule).
>
> While it is most definitely possible, and not a bad idea in theory, the
> in-fighting that would ensue would be terrible, not unlike what seems to
> be cropping up now, and this seems to be mostly aftershocks, which is
> sad to say what I hope for, since I haven't done anything yet to draw
> the fire :-P
>
> Anyway like I said in a previous email, this topic is one that evidently
> does need to be addressed, if only because some people have shown an
> interest in it and at the very least those teams that wish to pursue
> this option need to be given some sort of guideline for accounting for a
> nonprofit.
>
>
>
> Aaron Toponce wrote:
> > This has been discussed on and on and on. Here are the reasons why this
> > is not appropriate for this project:
> >
> > 1) As a state-run LoCo team, they have the opportunity if they wish to
> > go after that status. It is up to that individual team, and not this
> > mentoring project, to look for financial help/protection.
> >
> > 2) 501c3 status from a national standpoint doesn't make a lot of sense
> > anyway. Each state has different laws concerning how funds can be
> > distributed and handled within the organization. Creating a national
> > blanket would only create problems internally and complicate matters
> > between teams.
> >
> > 3) The mentoring project is about getting approved LoCo teams in each
> > state. Not about providing legal protection. Not about providing tax
> > breaks. If someone or some team wants 501c3 protection, this project is
> > not the channel to go through. Canonical would be the appropriate means
> > of getting something like that accomplished.
> >
> > If a new team, say a US Legal Team or US Tax Team needs to be created
> > within Ubuntu, then great. It will not be a part of this project. We
> > are about states helping states. We are about recruiting members. We
> > are about advocacy. We are about install fests. We are about community
> > involvement. We are not about financial help. We are not about tax
> > breaks. We are not about legal protection.
> >
> > However, I see no need for such a blanket. For several years, LUGs and
> > SIGs have operated just fine without any of this. I understand that
> > there have been isolated incidents where investors would not help fund
> > an install fest, because the LUG/SIG did not have that status. However,
> > these cases are the extreme minority. I have yet to hear of any LUG/SIG
> > needing legal help.
> >
> > So, again, if a state wants it, that state can get it. If a new Ubuntu
> > team should be created, then great. However, there will be no
> > accounting or legal team or council in the US Teams Mentoring Project.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > _
>
> > Aaron Toponce ( ) ASCII Ribbon Campaign
> > www.aarontoponce.org X www.asciiribbon.org
> > / \
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 00:54:46 -0400
> From: "Martin Owens" <doctormo at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US] Accounting Question
> To: "US LoCo Teams" <ubuntu-us at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Message-ID:
> <69ff73b20709092154i35c70a5v7e05275bae04ff5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 10/09/2007, Chris Rohde <veritastic at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it seem this is bringing up
> > much more animosity than is necessary?
>
> It does and it baffles the logical mind as to it's root cause; we
> don't deserve to be shouted down just because we'd like to see more
> guides aimed at fiscal recording and a decent chat about the pro's and
> con's of organisational status.
>
> > While it is most definitely possible, and not a bad idea in theory, the
> > in-fighting that would ensue would be terrible, not unlike what seems to
> > be cropping up now, and this seems to be mostly aftershocks, which is
> > sad to say what I hope for, since I haven't done anything yet to draw
> > the fire :-P
>
> Infighting is always a bad idea, any group is supposed to have a
> strong leader which quells such heavy and unwarranted arguments
> though.
>
> Although I'm going to try and keep my head in this debate, from what
> I've seen so far I expect it to get needlessly ugly.
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of Ubuntu-us Digest, Vol 5, Issue 4
> ***************************************
>
--
Best regards,
Dan Shufelt
"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a
nail." -Abraham Maslow
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