I happen to agree that, low income groups who are trying to climb the economic ladder should not be targeted for FOSS. Kids will learn anything, I've seen 3rd graders do as well with edubuntu as windows... but as the guy says, if the idea is to get them to compete in mainstream then they need to compete with mainstream tools. If I may make a parallel observation - composting toilets (sustainable sanitation) is often targeted at the very poor, it's been found that they soon give it up (as soon as they can afford to), because they want to be like the rich. It is the mainstream we need to change, and that'll not happen by changing the fringes. I have no objection to introducing FOSS to a school with mixed socio-economic group kids, but I'd stay away from ESL (or low income) teens and adults. Yes, true, people will learn MS very quickly, but they probably won't get past the interview and get a chance to learn. For example, I'm helping to hire a bookkeeper right now, if they don't know Quickbooks, they don't get an interview.... sad but fact. just my thoughts :) ~sanjay "Jeremy C." <jeremyc4@gmail.com> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> So let me get this right ... he has kids with no "real" computer experience but he thinks them learning in a non-MS environment is TWO layers of learning? If they don't have experience then anything new will be the same as MS. Seems like I've heard somewhere that kids learn new languages real quickly. C'mon ... this guy is not an educator. If he was, he'd understand these kids can learn ANYTHING and the logic, appearance and operation of a solid GUI on Linux would expand their brains with new information and set them up to VERY quickly learn MS when they do encounter it. <div class="gmail_quote">On Feb 13, 2008 8:04 PM, Kevin Cole <<a href="mailto:kjcole@ubuntu.com">kjcole@ubuntu.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> And the word back is: Willing to discuss, but... "If it ain't Microsoft kids ain't interested."  Followed by FUD. I say "If they're really turning down Macs as well (as claimed below), something's horribly out of whack -- unless those machines are REALLY ancient."  Still, in spite of being an MAR, he sounds like he's not thrilled with that -- even if he does use AOL for his mail. ;-) -------- Original Message -------- Subj: Re: DC computer refurbishing and open source software... Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:20:51 EST From: <a href="mailto:FirstTimeCmptrs@aol.com">FirstTimeCmptrs@aol.com</a> Kevin - good to hear from you. I've wrestled with the FOSS question in the past, and after trying out a Linux machine [from MicroCenter with Linspire installed] and thinking a lot about it, decided not to go that route. My concern is this -- we are trying to bridge the digital divide, level the digital playing field -- however you want to think of it. This inevitably means bringing kids into the digital mainstream -- unfortunately, and ruthlessly so.  We can't even interest the kids who get our computers in Macs -- because they are different.  This is true even of the ones who go to charter school where they learn on Macs. Getting the kids to go freeware would be like layering a second learning curve on top of the first.  the first being get the hang of a computer and its uses, the second doing it in a non-Microsoft way. It would be too much.  So here we are in a basically Microsoft environment, like it or not. We are a MAR - Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher, so that we get most stuff free or nearly free from them - e.g., $5 per install of XP. That helps some, but makes us feel like we are a part of extended their monopoly. I am no fan of Microsoft - we run into their nastiness every time we do a PC [e.g., if you set up a new username in Windows, and then go to open Internet Explorer logged on as the new user, you find the home page has defaulted to MSN, even if there are 10 other usernames all with non-Microsoft home pages.  and the same is true if you upgrade from IE6 to IE7]. Happy to talk further about it. Lowell Dodge, Exec Dir. First Time Computers 3619 Georgia Ave NW Washington, DC 20010 202-722-2822 - office 202-722-2877 - fax ______________________________________________________________________________ <a href="mailto:1stTimeComputers@gmail.com">1stTimeComputers@gmail.com</a> <a href="http://www.firsttimecomputers.org" target="_blank">www.firsttimecomputers.org</a> <<a href="http://www.firsttimecomputers.org/" target="_blank">http://www.firsttimecomputers.org/</a>> You can drop computer stuff off at our office, 3619 Georgia Ave NW, Washington DC, at the corner of Georgia and Princeton, two blocks south of the Petworth metro stop. There's still a big red "Mario's Pizza House" sign left by the previous tenant on the front of the building.  The building is set back a bit off Georgia Avenue and there is a small parking lot in front. You can pull right up to the front door. Please call first to make sure someone is there. *First Time Computers - A Thumbnail Description* First Time Computers accepts donations of computers and computer components from individuals, families and organizations. We put them together into usable systems for students from lower income families in the DC area who can't afford to buy them. We also provide computers to organizations serving low income children and youth. We wipe incoming computers clean, and load the essential software from scratch.  Before we deliver a system, we run it through a series of exhaustive checks and complete needed fixes/upgrades.  Each computer is equipped with everything needed to be a fully-functioning system for educational and personal use.  We typically deliver these systems to the homes of recipients or to organizations, set them up, provide any needed orientation, and leave a handout on how to keep the PC running reliably.  We ask recipients to make a $25 donation per computer. So far [as of January 2007] we have taken in 2050 computers and placed about 1600.  We are incorporated, tax-exempt, and are a Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher. We are located in the former Mario's Pizza House at 3619 Georgia Ave NW [the big red "Mario's" sign still hangs on the front]. We have 7 part-time staff, mostly from the communities we serve.  Our website is <a href="http://www.firsttimecomputers.org" target="_blank">www.firsttimecomputers.org</a>. Lowell Dodge, Founder <div class="Ih2E3d">--  Kevin Cole                 |  Key ID: 0xE6F332C7   (GPG/PGP)  Ubuntu Linux DC LoCo Team  |     WWW: <a href="http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/" target="_blank">http://dc.ubuntu-us.org/</a> </div>  Washington, D.C.  (USA)    |   Phone: +1.202.234.0213 (home) <div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">            ". ! 1 |" -- Rene Magritte's computer </div></div>-- Ubuntu-us-dc mailing list <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-us-dc@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-us-dc@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-dc" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-dc</a> </blockquote></div> -- Ubuntu-us-dc mailing list Ubuntu-us-dc@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-dc </blockquote> -- Intellectual property can stimulate innovation, so can war... in both cases the negatives don't justify the 'progress'.... In recent times, humanity has spent more effort in producing smaller mp3 players and cell-phones than clean water and sanitation for everybody... isn't it time to reevaluate how we motivate people? -- <hr size=1>Looking for last minute shopping deals? <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping"> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.</a>