I gotta' agree with DW. -1. Kevin <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 11:24 AM, <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca-request@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Send Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list submissions to <a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca</a> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to <a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca-request@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca-request@lists.ubuntu.com</a> You can reach the person managing the list at <a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca-owner@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca-owner@lists.ubuntu.com</a> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Ubuntu-us-ca digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Leadership Appointment Process (Alan Ostlund) 2. Re: Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process (Larry Cafiero) 3. Re: Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process (David Wondelry ~DarkwingDuck~) 4. Re: Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process (Akkana Peck) 5. Re: Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process (David Wondelry ~DarkwingDuck~) 6. Re: Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process (Mark Garrow) 7. Re: Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process (Jack Deslippe) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 07:30:40 -0800 From: Alan Ostlund <<a href="mailto:mjolnar@sbcglobal.net">mjolnar@sbcglobal.net</a>> Subject: [Ubuntu-US-CA] Leadership Appointment Process To: <a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Message-ID: <1268148640.11713.3.camel@alan-desktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I vote +1, but only because if we don't do something about the issue, it will get out of hand. Neal has done a great job so far, but new blood is usually a good thing. At least we have more than one person willing to do the job. In a lot of cases, you will find no one willing to devote the time this job will require. Alan Ostlund ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 07:35:36 -0800 From: Larry Cafiero <<a href="mailto:larry.cafiero@gmail.com">larry.cafiero@gmail.com</a>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process To: Ubuntu US California <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:7a0d56081003090735y6c7c4ea4lae2c79bb501f7b0a@mail.gmail.com">7a0d56081003090735y6c7c4ea4lae2c79bb501f7b0a@mail.gmail.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It seem that this particular situation requires a leadership process, and the one proposed is sound. +1 Larry Cafiero On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Jono Bacon <<a href="mailto:jono@ubuntu.com">jono@ubuntu.com</a>> wrote: > Hi All, > > I just want to clarify my original question as there was a little > confusion reported to me earlier: I am asking whether you feel that the > leadership process is required at all. If you feel the team would > benefit from having that process in place, vote with +1, if you feel > that the team is running just fine without it, vote -1. > > Sorry for any confusion. Thanks, all! > > Jono > > -- > Jono Bacon > Ubuntu Community Manager > <a href="http://www.ubuntu.com" target="_blank">www.ubuntu.com</a> / <a href="http://www.jonobacon.org" target="_blank">www.jonobacon.org</a> > <a href="http://www.identi.ca/jonobacon" target="_blank">www.identi.ca/jonobacon</a> <a href="http://www.twitter.com/jonobacon" target="_blank">www.twitter.com/jonobacon</a> > > > -- > Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list > <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca</a> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/attachments/20100309/525cb20d/attachment-0001.htm" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/attachments/20100309/525cb20d/attachment-0001.htm</a> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 07:58:30 -0800 From: David Wondelry ~DarkwingDuck~ <<a href="mailto:ubuntu@darkwingduck.org">ubuntu@darkwingduck.org</a>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process To: Ubuntu US California <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4B967026.1090100@darkwingduck.org">4B967026.1090100@darkwingduck.org</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 03/09/2010 12:44 AM, Jono Bacon wrote: > Hi All, > > I just want to clarify my original question as there was a little > confusion reported to me earlier: I am asking whether you feel that the > leadership process is required at all. If you feel the team would > benefit from having that process in place, vote with +1, if you feel > that the team is running just fine without it, vote -1. > > Sorry for any confusion. Thanks, all! > > Jono > -1 For my reasons feel free to email me. DW ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:18:28 -0800 From: Akkana Peck <<a href="mailto:akkana@shallowsky.com">akkana@shallowsky.com</a>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process To: <a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20100309171828.GB1878@shallowsky.com">20100309171828.GB1878@shallowsky.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jono Bacon writes: > Hi All, > > I just want to clarify my original question as there was a little > confusion reported to me earlier: I am asking whether you feel that the > leadership process is required at all. If you feel the team would > benefit from having that process in place, vote with +1, if you feel > that the team is running just fine without it, vote -1. > > Sorry for any confusion. Thanks, all! Now I'm even more confused than I was before. I thought we were voting on keeping the current setup for a year, then letting the team vote on leadership after that. Now you clarify we're voting on whether to have formal leadership at all, ever. That seems very different from what you said in the first message. As a relative newcomer I don't know what all these smouldering issues are or even who a lot of the people are (you know, it would be really helpful to have a page somewhere that mapped IRC nicks to real names, or for folks on IRC in leadership positions to set their realnames). So I probably should stay out of the vote anyway, but I have to say this process is confusing. ...Akkana ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 10:24:42 -0800 From: David Wondelry ~DarkwingDuck~ <<a href="mailto:ubuntu@darkwingduck.org">ubuntu@darkwingduck.org</a>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process To: <a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4B96926A.8060708@darkwingduck.org">4B96926A.8060708@darkwingduck.org</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 03/09/2010 07:58 AM, David Wondelry ~DarkwingDuck~ wrote: > On 03/09/2010 12:44 AM, Jono Bacon wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> I just want to clarify my original question as there was a little >> confusion reported to me earlier: I am asking whether you feel that the >> leadership process is required at all. If you feel the team would >> benefit from having that process in place, vote with +1, if you feel >> that the team is running just fine without it, vote -1. >> >> Sorry for any confusion. Thanks, all! >> >> Jono >> > > -1 > > For my reasons feel free to email me. > > DW > There have been a lot of questions about my vote. I figured that it would be more productive to reply with my reasons here. The issues in the group stem from a leadership style that Neal (Flannel) has. The issues have brought up a lot of controversy with the northern group. Grant (Grantbow) is one of the people that have brought the issues to light. It's a philosophy issue between how those in NorCal think and deal with problems vice those in SoCal. SoCal thinking has a way of saying "Problems will take care of themselves." The NorCal thinking is "Deal with the problem ASAP, fix it and move on." This is where you can break down the issue. My problem is that when/if a change of power takes place the issue of philosophy will not change. If someone from NorCal takes over then the issue still remains as those from SoCal will stir that we are spending too much time focused on the problems and not enough on what a LoCo should do. This is why I feel this course of action is like a very small band-aid to a larger problem. What should be done is a set of bylaws on how to deal with issues, leadership and how to conduct business. Changing leaders will not solve this issue. DW ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 11:10:55 -0800 From: Mark Garrow <<a href="mailto:markgarrow@gmail.com">markgarrow@gmail.com</a>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process To: Ubuntu US California <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4B969D3F.9020506@gmail.com">4B969D3F.9020506@gmail.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed +1 On 3/8/2010 9:23 PM, Jono Bacon wrote: > Hi All, > > To those of you who don't know me, I am Jono Bacon and I am the Ubuntu > Community Manager, now residing in the Easy Bay in sunny California. :-) > > Aside from just being part of the team, I have also been helping to > resolve some conflict that has been happening in the team. I have had > some calls with Neal and Grant and spoken to many of you to gather your > input about the team and this conflict. > > Today I had a conference call with Neal and Grant and both identified > that a key issue is that sometimes unresolved issues are left open and > not resolved. Typically in most LoCo teams in these scenarios the leader > will help unblock and bring closure to these issues. While Neal is the > leader Ubuntu California, there was some uncertaintly in our call as to > how formally recognized this is. > > I made a suggestion in the call, but Grant, Neal and I all agreed that > we should not move forward with the suggestion without gathering > feedback from the team as to whether it is needed. As such, I would like > to ask each of you to provide feedback on the following suggestion - > some of you will want to mail me your feedback privately, and some will > be happy to reply to the list. Whatever method you choose: please > summarize *your* view, and not the view of someone who has asked you to > provide feedback one way or the other. The aim of this is for me to get > a barometer of opinion for this proposal. > > This is it: > > I recommend we have a leadership appoint process that works like this: > > * With Neal already the leader of the team, starting from April > 1st 2010 he would start a formally recognized one year term of > leadership (he would be grandfathered in). > * In March 2011 a leadership appointment process will happen > that works like this: > o there will be an invitation for people to nominate > themselves for leadership. There will be a standard wiki > template used for people to produce their case for > leadership and others will provide testimonials. > o a meeting will be scheduled and nominations will be > discussed, there will then be a vote using a voting tool > to identify the leader. > o if there is a draw or some conflict surrounding the > vote, the LoCo Council will evaluate the case and pick a > leader. > > What do you think? Please vote with: > > * +1 - you agree with the above proposal. > * -1 - you disagree with the above proposal. > > Again, feel free to provide feedback privately to me or publicly on the > list. > > Thanks! > > Jono > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 11:24:33 -0800 From: Jack Deslippe <<a href="mailto:jdeslip@gmail.com">jdeslip@gmail.com</a>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] Asking For Opinion: Leadership Appointment Process To: Ubuntu US California <<a href="mailto:ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:11eb8a5c1003091124p7eec0428q3a7f5496f8a25b5@mail.gmail.com">11eb8a5c1003091124p7eec0428q3a7f5496f8a25b5@mail.gmail.com</a>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all, I generally agree with what DW said (though the characterization of the SoCal/NoCal mentality may be a bit simplified...). I have always been of the opinion that the issues and personal problems in this group derive from a lack of a well-defined and fair structure/by-laws. A couple months back, I documented what I thought the root problem was and created a proposed structure to address them. I did not submit it to the group in deference for the ongoing process between Neal, Grant and Jono; though I thought this process mostly hopelessly mired in fixing ill-effects instead of the root cause of trouble. However, I find Jono's email from yesterday to begin to address the root cause (the lack of well-defined structure) of our problems. I think his proposed leadership model would ensure equality in the group (everyone gets to vote) and define a clear path towards leadership for those wishing to bring change to the group. The model, coupled with a some simple by-laws defining membership, the role of the leader and how decisions are made locally and statewide would in my opinion go a long way towards solving the structural and personal problems in the group. Here is the link to my document mentioned above for the record: <a href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVvuU9dbI-YnZGhtOWh6cHZfNDNmNzRoaDNkdw&hl=en" target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AVvuU9dbI-YnZGhtOWh6cHZfNDNmNzRoaDNkdw&hl=en</a> - I hope the forward illustrates why the problems in the group derive from the lack of structure. I am by no means attached to the particular details of the proposal in this document. It is simply an example. I think supplementing Jono's proposed leadership structure with some sort of by-laws would certainly be sufficient - without the need for council member from each area. If it is not clear, this email and the google-document represent my opinions only and not those of other NoCal members. -Jack On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 10:24 AM, David Wondelry ~DarkwingDuck~ < <a href="mailto:ubuntu@darkwingduck.org">ubuntu@darkwingduck.org</a>> wrote: > On 03/09/2010 07:58 AM, David Wondelry ~DarkwingDuck~ wrote: > > On 03/09/2010 12:44 AM, Jono Bacon wrote: > >> Hi All, > >> > >> I just want to clarify my original question as there was a little > >> confusion reported to me earlier: I am asking whether you feel that the > >> leadership process is required at all. If you feel the team would > >> benefit from having that process in place, vote with +1, if you feel > >> that the team is running just fine without it, vote -1. > >> > >> Sorry for any confusion. Thanks, all! > >> > >> Jono > >> > > > > -1 > > > > For my reasons feel free to email me. > > > > DW > > > > There have been a lot of questions about my vote. I figured that it > would be more productive to reply with my reasons here. > > The issues in the group stem from a leadership style that Neal (Flannel) > has. The issues have brought up a lot of controversy with the northern > group. Grant (Grantbow) is one of the people that have brought the > issues to light. It's a philosophy issue between how those in NorCal > think and deal with problems vice those in SoCal. > > SoCal thinking has a way of saying "Problems will take care of > themselves." The NorCal thinking is "Deal with the problem ASAP, fix it > and move on." This is where you can break down the issue. My problem is > that when/if a change of power takes place the issue of philosophy will > not change. If someone from NorCal takes over then the issue still > remains as those from SoCal will stir that we are spending too much time > focused on the problems and not enough on what a LoCo should do. > > This is why I feel this course of action is like a very small band-aid > to a larger problem. What should be done is a set of bylaws on how to > deal with issues, leadership and how to conduct business. Changing > leaders will not solve this issue. > > DW > > > -- > Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list > <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca</a> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/attachments/20100309/6ed01fc0/attachment.htm" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/attachments/20100309/6ed01fc0/attachment.htm</a> ------------------------------ -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca</a> End of Ubuntu-us-ca Digest, Vol 34, Issue 4 ******************************************* </blockquote></div>