couple of problems

[alex stone]

Henry, if you're in the mood to experiment, then i respectfully suggest you
do a clean install of Hardy, rather than a overbuild. I've tried that, and
got burnt.
The Ubuntu desktop is a decent bit of craftsmanship, but if you're building
a dedicated Audio box, then you have choices. Before you step in, have a
think about using a lightweight desktop. What will happen here is you'll get
a more sprightly working environment. When you install deb packages, and
some GTK, or KDE dependencies are required, they'll generally get picked up
in the repos, as part of a package install process.

Some other observations i made:

When i install up to date packages like Ingen, Patchage, etc, they tell me
in the configure stage if my installed dependency packages are 'modern'
enough. I found that is was easier, if a bit longer, to downloaded some
required libs from source. (and that was the case with the example i gave of
libsoundfile 1.0.18. Debian has this now as a deb package, but at the time,
i installed it from source.) This process takes a while if you're new at
linux like me, so patience is the order of the day.
The same is true of great apps like linuxsampler, rosegarden, etc. Up to
date versions from source have many new features, and with all of these, you
can, from online repos, through SVN, CVS, GIT, and Waf, up date your source,
then simply compile and reinstall. It doesn't take long to get into the
rhythm of this, and i have found once a week works for me. Every Sunday
evening, i go through my list, and update the apps, and recompile in a test
partition. If they build without problems, then they get the same treatment
in the 'real' partition. It seems clumsy, but it works, and doesn't leave
with a broken app. (Not including the wonderful animal that is User Error.)

You mentioned the RT kernel.
In UbStudio, and other media oriented distros, there is (generally) an RT
build for your kernel, waiting to be installed. That makes it easy for us to
change a domestic use build to something a little more enthusastic, and of a
lower latency, by nature of the RT kernel intent. In Ubuntu Hardy, there's
an RT kernel ready to be installed, but in UBstudio, the RT kernel is
already installed as part of the UBstudio framework.

Jack.
When i first started with Jack, it was an exercise in confusion. It took me
a little while to figure it out, but when i did, it was easy to maintain,
install, use, and tweak. To put it simply, ALSA sits in the kernel, and Jack
is a layer above that. Jack will use the device you choose, be it Alsa,
Freebob, OSS, or FFADO, and it creates a server framework with which you can
cable multiple apps together in a 'live' environment. With an RT kernel, you
can tweak Jack effectively to lower latency to that sweet spot that is a
balance between extremely low latency and potential instability, usually
referred to as Xruns, and a generous enough allowance in latency that gives
you a reasonably live playing feedback and stability. Mileage with this
varies from user to user according to hardware, and it's a case of tweak and
try, tweak and try, until you find that spot that suits your working
environment, and the type of music you want to write. (Some will want really
low latency for live use, i.e. Sing along through a mike, or play an
instrument, and others may be happy with a slightly higher latency as they
do everything 'in the box.')

Since i started using Jack, i'm still amazed at how versatile and powerful
it is. The only limits are your hardware.

And that means, given the professional server that is Jack, versus the
domestic server that is Pulse, you decide which direction you want to take.
Jack and Pulse will play together, with a bit of work, but STRICTLY imho,
it's not a happy marriage, and i opted for sacrificing the UBDesktop, in
favour of an audio/recording box that works, and does what it says on the
tin, with up to date apps. I've just installed Debian 5 on my ppc laptop for
use on the road. I discover the LXDE, or lightweight X11 desktop
environment, and it's been impressive so far. I may well consider this for
the work box, as an alternative to a full Gnome, KDE, or Gnome based
UBstudio desktop scheme.

/ as the partition mount point is correct. It's the 'base' or root
directory, above which the directory tree is built.
It's after this, when you get to the choice of package installs, that you
can select which components you want to have in the initial installation
process. I'm still not smart enough with linux to do a barebones
kernel install to a terminal, then download and install a fast, small
desktop, and all the components for a lean build totally dedicated to a
working environment, but i'm working on it. More study still needed on my
part.........

There is no RT kernel for Intrepid. (8.10) There were so many significant
changes to the vanilla kernel at the time, that it would have involved a
hefty chunk of time, and effort, on the part of the UBstudio team to build.
We had a discussion about this not so long ago, and Cory from the UB team
gave us plenty of notice that there would be a delay, or possibly, a version
skip, to Jaunty. (9.0.4) So Hardy is your 'current' RT kernel. There are
reports which have been posted here, of intrepid users regressing to the
hardy RT kernel without problems, but it's strictly a personal choice of
risk. Personally, i've stuck with my barebone Hardy UBStudio, and source
built the significant apps, with some source libs installs as while.

Documentation.

There's a few gaps here and there, agreed, but there also a fair body of
reference available too. For regular apps, like Jack, Alsa, Ardour,
Linuxsampler, you'll find enough to get you going, and find your way around
the apps fairly comfortably. For Rosegarden there's a good manual (I can
vouch for this one as i've worn the cover off more than one copy.), and the
Musescore manual is growing fast. It's a case of googling, and reading.

Pre-install.

You won't have a choice to install Pulse or not. That's 'builtin.' (No
further comment needed here.) You either keep it, in an UBStudio
environment, or dump it, and lose the dependencies. To be fair and
objective, there is a matching pair of sink and source modules that will
enable you to run Jack through Pulse, but i never got this to work properly,
and just ended up using an .asoundrc file telling Alsa to route everything
into Jack. This worked for me, so if it aint broke........
The jack modules for pulse allegedly enable you to have an automated
process, which suspends pulse when you start jack, and automatically resumes
pulse when jack is stopped. It may be better now, or the process may enable
you to use both simultaneously, but i guess i've grown old fashioned and got
bored with trying to make it work, as the simplicity of using Jack, and an
.asoundrc file seemed a lot less complicated, and easier to setup and use.
Mine is a working box without all the domestic stuff, so pulse was redundant
anyway. Again, you have a choice.

I have a question for you here.

Which apps are you using the most? Maybe, even with my modest experience, i
can give you more specific information.

Finally, i was running a triple boot setup for a fairly brief period of
time, Win XP, Linux 32bit, and linux 64bit. I got rid of the win as soon as
i could, and have an all native linux box now. (Yahoo)
I have a couple more updated apps to test when i get home, but i'll plump
for a single boot source based 64bit parchment studios unique build for the
next and final challenge. (I don't use VST's any more.) It can be time
consuming to keep up with more than 1 workbased boot, imho, and i have the
laptop for admin. As is the case for linux in general, we are spoilt for
choice. (and then some.)

Alex.




On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Henry W. Peters <hwpeters at jamadots.com>wrote:

> Hi Alex,
>
> Thanks for your enthusiasm & sharing your experience/s with Ubuntu Studio,
> I think it really may be helpful, not only for me... but toward the
> continued development of a successfully functioning, truly useful
> multi-media on the Linux OS!
>
> I was going to suggest, as another part of this outlook you portray, that
> since one has already (i.e., as I have) installed a version that is not
> fully functioning properly, that experimental surgery might be done, as a
> part of the learning process... That is, until I went into the Synaptic
> Package Manager & tried to (started to) remove the Pulse Audio portion... &
> the manager informed me that it would need to remove the Ubuntu Studio
> Desktop also... This is a similar circumstance I found myself in Ubuntu
> (regular) 8.10, where I did this to a feature, the manager informed me, as
> stated above, I went ahead, & then developed insoluble problems from which I
> was unable to get help... & they involved  making my external partitions (I
> do dual boot w/ Windows XP) unavailable; in general, cd/dvd devices, trash;
> GNOME & Nautilus were largely disfunctional... & I had to do a number of
> sideways dances to get the files I needed saved... so that I could do a
> clean install... (I used my Windows formatted disk space for temporary back
> up, not so great, but it works for me).
>
> So, I downloaded the Ubuntu Studio 8.04.1 & made a dvd for installation, &
> I will try to do a migration backward... to try your advice... on building a
> useful install... (hopefully, I can get to see what the -rt kernel is about)
> but what I am now wondering, for one, if, say, I have a pre-install choice
> to install Pulse, OSS, etc... if not, removing will most likely be a
> possible problem; & for two, a question I have had since "upgrading" to 8.10
> is regarding the choices for mount point. I have found no documentation... &
> I do not really understand the implications for each of the options (at
> install time)? I have been selecting "/" as my mount point... & can one
> change this after the install (with, say, GRUB)/
>
> Thanks again for you very thoughtful expressions regarding Ubuntu Studio...
>
>
> Henry
>
>
>
> alex stone wrote:
>
> And i'll leave the flame suit in the locker as well, but i will say i don't
> think Pulse, which is a...domestic sound server, should be auto installed
> in what i consider a 'craftsman's' OS like Ubuntustudio.
> However some apps we use aren't built with Jack, and i can see why, given
> the continuity that Ubuntu seeks to maintain, pulse gets a viewing. But i
> maintain my view that Jack is a much better end result for a
> recording/graphic/mixing environment.
>
> That said, i faced the same situation as you when i graduated from Gutsy to
> Hardy, and i decided at the time to install a barebones setup with Hardy,
> and install as much as i could from up to date source, for precisely the
> reason you gave, of the multiple app dependencies that, when 1 app was
> removed, seemed to take a shedload of others with it.
> So i share the following based on my own modest experience:
>
> UbuntuStudio, like it's counterparts in the Ubuntu family, is based on
> stability, hence the lag in updates. Ubuntu isn't on its own with this, and
> it's worth remembering here that the UB team is a small one, and they cover
> a lot of ground maintaining the Ubuntu standard, for our benefit. We get
> good value as users, and we have the choice as to installation direction,
> either in Deb packages, or removing a handful of apps, and patiently
> reinstalling them from source, taking the chance that we'll be able to
> without too much angst. There are exceptions, Musescore being an obvious
> example, where user enthusiasm drove a fairly significant update, quickly.
> (Thanks Toby for doing this.)
>
> So I respectfully suggest here that you take a step back, grab a decent nip
> of cognac, and plan ahead.
>
> I wrote a list of apps that i use regularly based on experiments in
> workflow that i conducted over some period of time.
> After the list was done, and i'd collected all the source, SVN, CVS, Waf,
> and Git addresses, i then installed Hardy UbStudio, selecting NONE of the
> software install options for sound or graphic during the install process.
> The first thing i did when the install was finished, was remove pulse,
> through Synaptic.
>
> As i hadn't installed a shedload of apps, the 'damage' was minimal, and
> didn't pull much back out at all. I then scoured the bin, lib, share, and
> include directories for any vestiges of pulse, that may have got left behind
> in some obscure dependency requirement.
>
> I then updated Alsa, to a later build, installing only those modules i
> wanted.
>
> Then Jack.
>
> Then LAD/Ingen/Patchage, and LASH, including all the up to date libs and
> lib dev files from both ubstudio repos, and online. (libsoundfile being a
> good example here.)
>
> That's the sound server, and it's environment done, including any GUI's
> required.
> This a good place to check progress, and make sure the framework is sound,
> and reliable. (Good foundations, right?)
>
> After that it was LV2 and ladspa plugs.
>
> Then the main apps like Linuxsampler, Rosegarden, Ardour, Jconv, Aeolus,
> and so on, carefully reading install instructions, and taking note of any
> dependencies required, and importantly, their version numbers.
>
> I guess you could say this is a fairly methodical approach, but it's born
> out of clumsy user experience on my part, as i learnt to plan ahead, and not
> go through 1 step forward, and 2 sideways, trying to match dependencies, and
> not lose a handful of apps in the process. I got the message eventually.
>
> It's obvious to say this isn't windows, or simple out of the box stuff, but
> the reward for me was a lean, fast, powerful system, with ONLY the apps i
> wanted, and no bloat. (Within my very limited linux perception of what
> constitutes bloat.)
>
> You might well be happy with installing everything, and shuffling back and
> forth, and that's certainly more than suitable for those who like this
> approach. But after a lot of experiments, and associated mistakes, i finally
> get the wisdom of the modular mindset of linux, and the high percentage of
> satisfaction that comes with that.
>
> Henry, i have no idea of your linux skill level, or what you want out
> of your setup, so i only offer a personal experience of what works for me. I
> wouldn't go back to a 'install the lot then up date' approach, as the plan
> ahead and patiently install method, gives me a better result, with good
> stability, and the advantage of all those extra tools clever devs are
> building, and have done so in the last 6 months or so.
>
> I can't offer anything for your soundcard, as i'm using something else, but
> a trip to the ALSA site, and a browse in their soundcard matrix, may turn up
> something in changelogs that may give a clue to the current state of your
> particular module.
>
> So as far as Pulse goes, and only as my experience, i pulled it all out,
> and then followed Alsa and Jack instructions to setup a dedicated, or
> 'craftsman's' sound server.
> I find it easy now i know a little bit, and Jack's no bother at all. In my
> humble opinion, it smacks anything else i've ever used for ease of use, and
> i used to run 5 boxes, running the nightmare that was multiple Gigastudio
> instances, just to achieve the same result for 1 linux box, and the mighty
> Linuxsampler.
> Match that with Rosegarden, Ardour, Ingen, Aeolus and Jconv, and the extra
> effort to install up to date packages from source, in a 'craftsman's' build,
> is more than worth it.
>
> I've certainly rambled on here, but i'm enthusiastic about this stuff,
> because, with a plan, and a source based install and maintenance
> approach, it gives much greater end results, imho.
>
> I wish you luck and success, whichever path you take.
>
> Alex.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Henry W. Peters <hwpeters at jamadots.com>wrote:
>
>> I am having troubles with my Ubuntu Studio 8.10:
>>
>>
>>    - It came with Ardour ver. 2.5, aside from sound input problems (which
>>    I shall try to briefly address below), that version gave (& now again,
>>    gives) me problems. I believe I *need* to *uninstall* the earlier
>>    version to *reinstall* 2.7.1, is this correct... & if so, I do not
>>    have the source folder to do a 'make uninstall' command, & the synaptic
>>    package manager wants to take out 'ubuntustudio sound' if I go this route.
>>    Is Ardour 2.7.1 even compatible with Studio 8.10, & if it *is,* I am
>>    wondering why was it *not* included in this system upgrade, including
>>    the latest version of jack & qjackctl?   What to do?
>>
>>
>>    - There was, a while back, some discussion regarding Pulse audio (&
>>    possibly OSS), I *do not* wish to reignite that discussion (I think I
>>    do *not* wish to use them), but I do think some one mentioned taking
>>    Pulse Audio out (possible conflict w/ Alsa???). Is there some way to do this
>>    (or even determine if this might have some conflict with my sound card/alsa
>>    setup (including OSS?)? My sound card is MiaMidi (Echo Corp., manufactured).
>>
>>
>>    - The sound preferences control panel also has a very confusing array
>>    of options...  which I may need to get back on, that is if the possible
>>    solutions mentioned to the above are not resolving my no sound input
>>    problem... (by the way, the sound input I am trying to connect  *from
>>    (I say from, because I get sound out, just fine)* is a s/pdif *from *my
>>    Yamaha 01v digital mixer. & I do get internal sound to run some radio/sound
>>    players, the echomixer does seem to control the digital output of the Yamaha
>>    01v, but no sound to the above mentioned programs (& also, not exclusive to
>>    Ardour) etc., but cd players are another matter, or should I say, puzzle for
>>    me at the moment; first things first).
>>
>> Please feel free to ask for any clarifications (I have been trying my best
>> since my foray to Ubuntu, going on a year now to resolve with out adding to
>> the oft heard battle cry: "I can't get no sound), etc. Any help would be, as
>> usual, most appreciated.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>
>
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-- 
Parchment Studios (It started as a joke...)
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