[Ubuntu-SG] [Bulk] Re: South-East Asian FOSS Collaboration
Maung Myat Thu @ Billy Aung Myint
billy at ubuntu.sg
Tue Aug 12 07:41:47 UTC 2008
On Tue, 2008-08-12 at 15:29 +0800, John Thng wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Maung Myat Thu @ Billy Aung Myint
> <billy at ubuntu.sg> wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 11:15 +0800, Rui Boon wrote:
>
> > Maung Myat Thu @ Billy Aung Myint wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 07:47 +0800, Muhammad Heidir wrote:
> > >
> > >> I am utterly disturbed by this loop. I know about its
> existence, but
> > >> now I know more why it happened.
> > >> Billy, your loop is well understood.
> > >>
> > >> Is it possible that we penetrate the use of FOSS starting
> at
> > >> educational instructors? If only they are guided and make
> known about
> > >> the existence of free alternatives and its benefits, I'm
> sure it can
> > >> be taken into consideration. Once we are able to set
> their mind open,
> > >> hopefully, they are able to extend this among their
> learners. That is
> > >> for educational part.
> > >>
> > I agree that if we focus our efforts on educational
> instructors, the
> > multiplier effect will be high. However we have to be
> mindful that they
> > have a certain inertial to changes. We will have to put
> forward our
> > argument on what can FOSS applications do for them that the
> common
> > applications cannot, bearing in mind that the latter group
> of softwares
> > has been conveniently made available for them (training,
> pricing,
> > implementation, integration)
>
>
> I do agree that they have certain inertial to change. But then
> everyone
> does. If we use this logic that some people have certain
> inertial to
> change then there will be no change at all. Singapore will
> still belong
> to Malaysia.
>
> Someone , somewhere , have to push for it. If later group of
> software
> have been conveniently made available for them then made them
> inconvenient. Teachers should teach what is good for the
> children and
> nation's future , not what is convenient to teach.
>
> If MOE believes that Windows is the future then go ahead with
> the
> training their teachers Windows. If you believe that FOSS is
> the way
> then complain to MOE why they are crippling the children with
> paid
> software when there are free and open software available
> everywhere.
>
> If you are a parent here and if you believe that your children
> future
> and learning can be further developed by using FOSS , then
> write to ST
> and ask MOE why they are forcing children to learn only one
> platform.
> Mind you , children should learn Windows too. The point is why
> they are
> learning ONLY Windows.
>
> > >
> > > Yup , thats definitely my point. Actually schools do have
> Linux. When I
> > > was in NP , they used to dual boot windows and fedora in
> the computer
> > > labs. I am not sure they still do but the problem is not
> that Linux
> > > isn't available to school , but its the lack of good
> teachers at the top
> > > level such as poly and uni thats cripples the whole thing.
> Its hard to
> > > teach something that you rarely use in practice and you
> will definitely
> > > will have no passions.
> > >
> > IMO, I will recommend strengthening the user base of open
> source
> > applications, like firefox and openoffice, first. As users
> get used to
> > those applications, and realised that they have no real
> needs for
> > windows, it will be the ripe time to introduce ubuntu.
> > >> In business organizations, (in my opinion) the reason why
> they adopt
> > >> redmond products, are in terms of resources (as
> highlighted by Billy)
> > >> and the amount of paid support that businesses can turn
> to should they
> > >> encounter problems, including the added security of
> receiving timely
> > >> patches.
> > >>
> > >> I know Red Hat Enterprise Linux is well-received because
> of paid
> > >> support. So much so that some adopters turn from free to
> paid support,
> > >> not from paid to free. This are one of the areas, FOSS
> might consider
> > >> if they have resources and the user-base is large.
> > >>
> > While there is definitely one group that depends on paid
> support,
> > conversely help from the community is sufficient for another
> group. See
> > Slashdot article on "Paid Support Not Critical For Linux
> Adoption" [1]
> > >> Anyway, thanks Billy for the heads-up!
>
>
> First , community isn't very strong as we would like to here.
> Sure ,
> there are about 50+ members here and 600+ members at LUGS. Of
> course , I
> have a feeling most members here belong to there as well so I
> am feeling
> there are less than 1000 Linux advocates. Out of all that ,
> only about
> 40 or 50 are active on the mailing list and less are active
> when there
> are events.
>
> So slashdot article is definitely correct for US , not for
> here. One
> reason is , Singaporeans are very uniform in their thinking ,
> I am not
> sure you realised it or not. There isn't much social deviants
> here.
> Think of Steve jobs or Bill Gates or Thomas Edison or Henry
> Ford or
> Michael Dell or Jeff Bezos. They are all weird by any mean.
> Gates was
> the guy who started micro-soft with Paul Allen( in the
> beginning they
> have dash in between) in 1975 by dropping out of Harvard.
>
> There is always a feeling to obey the authority here no matter
> how much
> we dislike it. How many people in Singapore like ERP? I can
> almost
> safely say none. How many protests? none. Here , everyone
> complains but
> everyone also obeys. And for that Linux is bad. If teachers or
> authority
> figures uses Windows , then windows is the right choice.
>
> Thats why teachers/MOE must be the first to start the ball
> rolling. And
> thats also why no matter how much we push , there are tons of
> resistance
> from everyone. Even my poly IT classmates refuses to use Linux
> and even
> go as far as buying original Windows.
>
> Think of it, how many people are using Linux exclusively now
> because of
> you? Your families not counted since you stay with them , I
> mean your
> friends. Can we have some figures?
>
>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 00:08 +0800, Maung Myat Thu @ Billy
> Aung Myint
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Sun, 2008-08-10 at 20:14 폍㐲驦鴝誼⮢힇裘鲆襚낋炊奛
> 秇ꮵꢧ霨⭹ꭢ缇鲢 come up for a meeting. I'm sure
> > >>>
> > >>>> we can share ideas, experiences and plan about
> promoting FOSS adoption
> > >>>> in the region. This will bring great benefits to each
> other culturally
> > >>>> too.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I heard that Malaysia and Indonesia has a lot of FOSS
> users due to its
> > >>>> low-cost(..free) and can be tailored to different
> languages such as
> > >>>> Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia. My guess is, FOSS
> can be readily
> > >>>> accepted mainstream, its just a matter of time. I would
> like to know
> > >>>> you thoughts about this.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Whereas in Singapore, most of the companies here
> prefers Microsoft,
> > >>>> because they come pre-installed, and Microsoft provides
> support
> > >>>> including most of the Administrators are MCSE
> certified. The problem
> > >>>> starts at the educational level, where students are
> overly exposed to
> > >>>> Microsoft based Operating Systems and Applications. Due
> to this
> > >>>> familiarisation and training conducted on Microsoft
> products,
> > >>>> naturally they are more accustomed to use it. If only
> we could project
> > >>>> to them the benefits and advantage of using an Open
> systems, they will
> > >>>> somehow understand.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Actually the problem is a recursive loop. Teachers
> themselves are not
> > >>> sure about anything other than windows so they will make
> a hell of a
> > >>> noise if schools buy non-ms systems and of course they
> can't teach any
> > >>> other than windows.So they teach windows to students who
> only learnt
> > >>> windows.
> > >>>
> > >>> Since everyone who got out of IT school knows windows ,
> they are
> > >>> everywhere and are dirt cheap to hire and fire.Therefore
> companies love
> > >>> them. And the companies only buy windows systems because
> the people they
> > >>> hire only knows windows.
> > >>>
> > >>> Since companies only hire windows admins/programmers ,
> schools only
> > >>> teach windows stuff saying market only wants windows
> skills. and this
> > >>> goes on and on and on and on and on.... sort of like a
> recursive loop
> > >>>
> > >>> Ramblings from former vice-president of NgeeAnn
> Polytechnic Linux Users
> > >>> Group,
> > >>> billy
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Anyway, I look forward to meeting with South-East
> Asians FOSS
> > >>>> enthusiasts!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best Regards,
> > >>>> supervivid
> > >>>>
> > [1]
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/09/0121210
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Rui Boon
>
>
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> Ubuntu-SG at lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-sg
>
>
> And by the way, the Higher Learning Institutions normally ask people
> to own laptop. And usually they come with microsoft, office, and other
> proprietary licenses for students. This pose one of the great problem.
That depends on the institution. If that institution says laptop comes
with openoffice and firefox, I have no doubt HP and Toshiba will do
that.
>
> Btw, I start to see GIMP and 7-Zip on the library computers in local
> uni. But too bad they load Office 2007 and not OpenOffice.org in it. I
> felt Office 2007 is a poison because of the new interface, once people
> got addicted, how much you advocated it's quite difficult to adapt
> back to the menu interface of other alternative office.
Yes , I never understand why they have to upgrade the office ... amazing
waste of public funds.
>
> And greatly we need to spur the interest of using open source
> applications. Competitions of creating stuff(audio/video/graphics)
> using open source applications, is one of the ideas. Example: if we
> show people we could create good graphics, audio, video using open
> source tools as comparable to proprietary ones, it would help much.
There are a few competitions .. such as google summer of code. I can't
think of local competitions though.
>
> Linux comes after we can teach those windows-only people to use
> cross-platform tools on their windows first in their daily life. Be it
> proprietary like Lotus Symphony, or Open Source Stuff. Cross-platform
> tools is the key.
Thats why we should start with schools and MOE. No parents here? I sure
would like to hear from a parent.
>
> Btw, Asia is a very competitive place, and further more neighbouring
> countries are starting to embrace linux and open source, hope we can
> become competitive too. If we don't step fast, the moment Open Source
> runs over Proprietary, and we are at the losing end at that time
> because we can't depend too much on Proprietary and also the cost of
> running proprietary is high.
That you gotta talk to the govt. We been kissing asses everytime. BSA ,
RIAA and so on. Singapore economic depends on stability of govt and
people and business. Change is not what govt wants. The same people are
doing what they been doing the same things over over 40 years. Why
expect any change soon?
>
> From
> John
>
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