<div dir="ltr">I think you hit it right on the head with that one.  That's the best example I ever heard. <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:38 AM, Jad/Hakam madi <<a href="mailto:Jad@ubuntu.com">Jad@ubuntu.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">another thing, people use what is classy, I dare you to ask for قهوه بارده بالحليب instead of frappuccino! 2008/8/4 Abstract <<a href="mailto:thikrat@gmail.com">thikrat@gmail.com</a>>: <div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">> You make some extremely valid points but the issue is that the masses decide > what the correct term is and that word becomes a de-facto standard and > becomes > part of the language.  The number of Arabic words in the English language is > astounding > but the words have undergone such a transformation and with time have become > somewhat > English in their own way.  Lets take the word "cipher" in English as an > example, derived from > "sifr" or "zero" in Arabic.  Cipher means a code of some sort but is still > based on the Arabic word for > zero.  Cipher is now more English than Arabic and I dare say, now has almost > no connection to the Arabic root. > > I understand and agree with the sense of pride that comes with having your > own word for > something in a language but if people don't use that word it becomes null > and void.  At that > point trying to use a word from the language itself can be viewed in a > somewhat negative manner. > If Arabic is to grow linguistically in the tech field then people at the > forefront (like people on these lists) need to use an arabic word at the > beginning (like your word for proxy).  Even if its wrong, it will make the > basis Arabic and then > the masses will use the word they heard the first time, not the new > corrected word 5 years later. > > People memorize, they don't necessarily learn... the sooner Arabic is used > for terms and taught in schools > the better.  Using terms in software NOW is a good way of setting a standard > as people will be forced > to use them.  Anyways, just my 2 cents, I love the open and intellectual > conversation. > > -rami > > > On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 4:56 PM, Khaled Hosny <<a href="mailto:khaledhosny@eglug.org">khaledhosny@eglug.org</a>> wrote: >> >> Borrowing words from other language is an option and it can be well >> tolerated it it is an exception done occasionally, may be with the idea >> that it can be very will replaced with a native Arabic word when a >> suitable one is present. Otherwise, with the massive number of new terms >> appearing every year, way may compromise the integrity of our language >> rendering it a heterogeneous collection of badly coined words with no >> connections to each other. >> >> Also, the common claim that English terms are "more obvious" than Arabic >> counterparts that we should simply borrow the English one is a very >> false claim based in the assumptions that every one knows the English >> term (and that every one knows it really understands it linguistically >> wise), which is very untrue. I'll give you a simple real example: I've >> been seeing the word proxy transliterated into Arabic for years, and I >> never happen to know what does it mean, until I encountered it in the >> translation, then with some research I realized that it originates from >> the legal term of وكيل or وسيط hence we now translate it as وسيط, now it >> is a really obvious term that I bet every one can guess its technical >> meaning with much little effort. >> >> Regards, >>  Khaled >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 03, 2008 at 08:40:03AM -0400, Abstract wrote: >> > Khaled, >> > >> > Yes, that makes perfect sense, as many words in English have Arabic >> > roots as >> > well.  I believe it's common >> > and no fault or weakness of a language to make use of some words from >> > another. >> > However, I do suggest >> > that classical Arabic be used as a Moroccan user may not completely get >> > "Baas" >> > because they use a combination of Arabic with French influence, but >> > they do understand the classical Arabic term.  You ever tried asking for >> > a >> > mobile phone in the middle east?  There are 4 words >> > for it, but everyone seems to understand 5elewi. >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Jad/Hakam madi <<a href="mailto:Jad@ubuntu.com">Jad@ubuntu.com</a>> wrote: >> > >> >     I'm not sure about Egypt but in Jordan Arabizi (Arabic Mixed with >> >     English) is very popular and English is very popular, actually in >> > many >> >     cases people prefer to use English terms as they are used to it more >> >     than Arabic ones, to sum it up, it's all about getting used to it >> >     rather than understanding the meaning 100% . >> >     for example in Jordan we call public bus a     although the Arabic >> >     term been there for long time        but we still use the word >> >     even in some official documents and that's because we are used to >> > it. >> > >> >     So it's not just about translating a term but about using it. >> > >> >     Now we are discussing Arabic translation issue in English :-) >> >     Happy translation. >> > >> > >> >     2008/8/2 Khaled Hosny <<a href="mailto:khaledhosny@eglug.org">khaledhosny@eglug.org</a>>: >> >     > Nice article, but if not so much interest in case of Arabic >> > translators. >> >     > Arabic is a completely different language with a different script, >> > using >> >     > English terms as such isn't a viable option, transliteration is as >> > bad. >> >     > In the same time, you can't depend on the common usage because of >> > the >> >     > diglossa status, what works with vernacular Arabic isn't (most of >> > the >> >     > time) suitable for the written classical or modern standard >> > Arabic. >> >     > >> >     > Regards, >> >     >  Khaled >> >     > >> >     > On Sat, Aug 02, 2008 at 09:11:19AM +0300, Jad/Hakam madi wrote: >> >     >> <a href="http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/33/1/" target="_blank">http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/33/1/</a> >> >     Technical-terms---translate-or-not-translate >> >     >> >> >     >> -- >> >     >> Your Freedom is worth more than you think. Take advantage of it >> > while >> >     >> you can. >> >     >> >> >     >> <a href="http://Ubuntu.com/" target="_blank">http://Ubuntu.com/</a>  Linux for Human Beings >> >     >> <a href="http://Nashmi.org/" target="_blank">http://Nashmi.org/</a> Ubuntu Jordan LoCo >> >     >> Mobile: 962 77 7795404 >> >     >> Skype: jadmadi >> >     >> 1024D/1BC049D2 >> >     >> CBBB C94C 7F28 8F65 1696 CF01 82DD 2C87 1BC0 49D2 >> >     >> >> >     >> -- >> >     >> Ubuntu-l10n-ara mailing list >> >     >> <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-l10n-ara@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-l10n-ara@lists.ubuntu.com</a> >> >     >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> > <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/</a> >> >     listinfo/ubuntu-l10n-ara >> >     > >> >     > -- >> >     >  Khaled Hosny >> >     >  Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team >> >     > >> >     > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >     > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) >> >     > >> >     > iEYEARECAAYFAkiUU+cACgkQRoqITGOuyPJmRACcDe3c9OWKgGSuQFmbJhDcFLIS >> >     > alIAnj0woUkfcD7p3Gs0YFi9IdtTYpJq >> >     > =ke0n >> >     > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >     > >> >     > >> > >> > >> > >> >     -- >> >     Your Freedom is worth more than you think. Take advantage of it >> > while >> >     you can. >> > >> >     <a href="http://Ubuntu.com/" target="_blank">http://Ubuntu.com/</a> Linux for Human Beings >> >     <a href="http://Nashmi.org/" target="_blank">http://Nashmi.org/</a> Ubuntu Jordan LoCo >> >     Mobile: 962 77 7795404 >> >     Skype: jadmadi >> >     1024D/1BC049D2 >> >     CBBB C94C 7F28 8F65 1696 CF01 82DD 2C87 1BC0 49D2 >> >     -- >> >     Ubuntu-arabic mailing list >> >     <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-arabic@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-arabic@lists.ubuntu.com</a> >> >     Modify settings or unsubscribe at: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/</a> >> >     listinfo/ubuntu-arabic >> > >> > >> >> > -- >> > Ubuntu-arabic mailing list >> > <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-arabic@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-arabic@lists.ubuntu.com</a> >> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> > <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-arabic" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-arabic</a> >> >> >> -- >>  Khaled Hosny >>  Arabic localizer and member of Arabeyes.org team >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) >> >> iEYEARECAAYFAkiWG3kACgkQRoqITGOuyPIlIACgiaYBa9OxhDfWN5q4n9X8TA7H >> o/MAn3YJQZZNtjDjapnxC7ZgB6b7tXVr >> =o5pD >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> > > </div></div>-- <div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">Your Freedom is worth more than you think. Take advantage of it while you can. <a href="http://Ubuntu.com/" target="_blank">http://Ubuntu.com/</a> Linux for Human Beings <a href="http://Nashmi.org/" target="_blank">http://Nashmi.org/</a> Ubuntu Jordan LoCo Mobile: 962 77 7795404 Skype: jadmadi 1024D/1BC049D2 CBBB C94C 7F28 8F65 1696 CF01 82DD 2C87 1BC0 49D2 </div></div></blockquote></div> </div>