<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Carl Karsten <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:carl@personnelware.com" target="_blank">carl@personnelware.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, Rohan Dhruva <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rohandhruva@gmail.com" target="_blank">rohandhruva@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Thank you, I promise to also reply with short answers then.<br>
<div><br>
On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 6:24 PM, Carl Karsten <<a href="mailto:carl@personnelware.com" target="_blank">carl@personnelware.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Others have given more in depth answers, I would like to give some very<br>
> short ones:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 7:14 PM, Rohan Dhruva <<a href="mailto:rohandhruva@gmail.com" target="_blank">rohandhruva@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you everyone for your responses.<br>
>><br>
>> Someone on the channel said that there is no way I can come out<br>
>> looking good in this whole discussion. Another person suggested that<br>
>> while I had a point earlier, it has now been diluted by the ensuing<br>
>> discussion.<br>
>> I agree with both of those verdicts. If the whole conversation is<br>
>> going to be coloured by that, I fear it will devolve into the same<br>
>> points that were hashed on IRC.<br>
>><br>
>> To pare down my email, the things I felt distasteful were:<br>
>> * ops killing organic, non-insulting, non-inflammatory discussions by<br>
>> silencing people<br>
><br>
><br>
> #ubuntu is for tech support.<br>
><br>
><br>
>><br>
>> * ops basing ban decisions based on personal prejudice (e.g. towards<br>
>> words like blitzkrieg and dictator, drawing conclusions of World War<br>
>> II and Hitler)<br>
><br>
><br>
> ops have to make judgment calls. judgment comes from thinking, which will<br>
> be influenced by feelings.<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
</div>Judgement comes from evidence, not personal bias. Drawing implications<br>
that certain words are related to certain historical events is<br>
personal bias, not good judgement.<br>
<div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div>I disagree with your opinion of what judgment is, and is and isn't good judgment. <br><br></div><div>I also disagree with what you think is and isn't ok. I suspect it is because we have different ideas about what happens in the event that something is not ok.<br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Neither of our opinions alone will dictate the final outcome, so I am comfortable acting on my opinions knowing that if I make a decision that others disagree with there is plenty of opportunity for things to be rectified. </div>
</div><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><div><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
>><br>
>> * ops banning people in the main channel for discussions happening in<br>
>> a completely separate channel (and to be banned by the same op who I<br>
>> had the issue with is an obvious conflict of interest)<br>
><br>
><br>
> judgment also comes from observing behavior in other channels.<br>
><br>
<br>
</div>If so, judgement should be reserved to that other channel. Not spill<br>
over to #ubuntu, where there was no sign of misdoing by me.<br>
<div><br>
>><br>
>> * general lack of responsibility towards IRC ops -- shown by an<br>
>> attitude of "puppies don't die" if there are mistakes in judgement<br>
><br>
><br>
> There are many policies and procedures in place to contend with mistakes.<br>
> You seem to think they are not appropriate because they allow for an op to<br>
> make a mistake in the first place.<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
</div>There are procedures, but it seems like both #ubuntu-ops and this list<br>
are not an effective way to bring them up. All I have seen up to this<br>
point is irrational behaviour excused under the catchphrase "judgement<br>
calls need to be made".<br>
<div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Your ban got removed.<br><br></div><div>You are welcome to propose changes do the documented procedures.<br></div><div class=""><div><br></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>My ban was removed because the other op was being nice -- nothing else. It wasn't done as a realisation of a mistake (in my opinion) by the original op. If ban being removed was my only goal, I would not have started the discussion in the channel or subsequently this thread. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I would have been ok with the ban being in place -- my concern here is with the way it was meted out and whether there should be any policy against such unprovoked escalation. </div><div><br></div><div>
That said, I do appreciate removal of the ban (as I already said in the channel too). </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
>><br>
>> * overall hostility in #ubuntu-ops, mainly with people's insistence to<br>
>> leave the channel -- why is it so important to push people out of a<br>
>> channel?<br>
><br>
><br>
> When someone is speaking in #ubuntu-ops, ops notice it and stop what they<br>
> are doing to see what is going on. If it isn't going to be productive, it<br>
> would be nice if it stopped.<br>
><br>
<br>
</div>Inviting people to leave the channel because the discussion does not<br>
go the way you want or because someone disagrees with you is not<br>
"would be nice". It's hostile. (you refers to the people in the irc<br>
channel, not you, Carl)<br>
<div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I think the requests to part the channel were done politely.<br><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree with you. But being done politely doesn't mean it was not a hostile thing to do. </div>
<div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div></div><div><div class="h5"><div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Happy to hear thoughts about this.<br>
>><br>
>> Cheers,<br>
>> Rohan<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Rohan Dhruva <<a href="mailto:rohandhruva@gmail.com" target="_blank">rohandhruva@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> > Hi ubuntu-irc,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I hang on out #ubuntu as "rohan", generally a lurker -- once in a while<br>
>> > I<br>
>> > ask questions and answer things I know.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Today, I encountered something I found disturbing. There was a<br>
>> > misunderstanding between two users, and an op decided to silence one of<br>
>> > them. The discussion was civil (no swearing or flooding), but also<br>
>> > off-topic. I feel silencing a user in this case is overreaching and rude<br>
>> > --<br>
>> > especially a user who might have been new to the IRC community (and<br>
>> > maybe<br>
>> > new to Ubuntu itself).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On complaining about this in the channel, I was directed to to talk in<br>
>> > #ubuntu-ops, which I joined and then stopped talking on #ubuntu. On the<br>
>> > -ops<br>
>> > channel (which is logged), I had a few heated words exchanged with the<br>
>> > op<br>
>> > who originally took the wrong action (in my opinion). Eventually, it<br>
>> > boils<br>
>> > down to whether words like "blitzkrieg" and "dictator" are offensive or<br>
>> > not.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Since the logs are public[1][2], I'll cut a long story short: the op<br>
>> > chose<br>
>> > to ban me from #ubuntu for a week. This was without me talking in<br>
>> > #ubuntu or<br>
>> > provoking drama in the main channel at all. The reason given was that I<br>
>> > was<br>
>> > likely to misbehave in #ubuntu, without there having been any evidence<br>
>> > of<br>
>> > having done so. As the logs will show, I tried to make my point in<br>
>> > various<br>
>> > ways, sometimes being drawn out. In interest of list readers' time, I<br>
>> > can<br>
>> > summarise the ensuing discussion as unfruitful and borderline hostile --<br>
>> > in<br>
>> > (large) part due to my own insistence of remaining in the channel. I was<br>
>> > unequivocally told to leave the channel at multiple times, with various<br>
>> > people suggesting I get a life, or my insistent complaining as pathetic.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I apologise for an already long email (but as people in the channel will<br>
>> > tell you, it's much shorter than reading the whole scrollback!).. but<br>
>> > here<br>
>> > are the things I wanted to request members' views and comments on:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > * Is it ok to stifle discussion by silencing one person when an argument<br>
>> > seems to be happening in the channel, under the pretext of avoiding<br>
>> > drama?<br>
>> > ** This is also against the guidelines of when to ban/kick a person --<br>
>> > there<br>
>> > was no flooding, nor were there any swear words or unappealing language.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > * Is it ok for an op to ban someone in the main #ubuntu channel for<br>
>> > discussion happening in a completely separate channel?<br>
>> > ** Especially when the discussion was exactly about the op overreaching:<br>
>> > this seems like an obvious conflict of interest. Also, should an op's<br>
>> > personal bias towards words like blitzkrieg and dictator be allowed to<br>
>> > affect a user's ability to enter a channel?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > * What can be done to make #ubuntu-ops a more friendly place? The<br>
>> > discussion<br>
>> > was very obviously hostile, and I was penalised for speaking up against<br>
>> > the<br>
>> > very two ops I had a problem with, and in general the channel's attitude<br>
>> > was<br>
>> > "write an email and gtfo, you're just repeating the same things over and<br>
>> > over". I don't understand the insistence to leave the channel, nor the<br>
>> > very<br>
>> > obvious ganging up of the "ops vs. users" -- at least I felt that way<br>
>> > from<br>
>> > the get-go. After I left the channel, the logs show people suggesting<br>
>> > each<br>
>> > other to skip reading the scrollback and offer sympathies for people who<br>
>> > actually wanted to read it. If that can be written off as humour, I<br>
>> > would<br>
>> > like to ask why the same kind of humour leads to a ban in #ubuntu.<br>
>> > ** This is especially important, because #ubuntu-ops is the first forum<br>
>> > in<br>
>> > the appeals flow, and the experience there was extremely elitist and<br>
>> > hostile.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > * Why is it so bad to suggest an op be penalised? Why does doing that<br>
>> > instantly evoke allegations of being childish and immature (as opposed<br>
>> > to<br>
>> > people claiming they themselves are intelligent adults)? If an op can<br>
>> > ban<br>
>> > someone for a week in a completely unrelated channel for discussion in<br>
>> > another channel, why is it sacrilege that there should be at least some<br>
>> > kind<br>
>> > of disciplinary action?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > * Continuing from the previous question, the general feeling I got is<br>
>> > that<br>
>> > the accountability of ops in general is not up to the usual Ubuntu<br>
>> > standards. Whereas packages in the repo are vetted in several different<br>
>> > ways, there seems to be no similar vetting for the whole ops flow.<br>
>> > People<br>
>> > claiming that "puppies don't die" if an op makes mistakes shows that the<br>
>> > general feeling of responsibility seems low. Another way of thinking<br>
>> > about<br>
>> > this is if that puppies are not going to die anyway, why go out of your<br>
>> > way<br>
>> > to ban someone for a joke here and there?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > * Turning the tables onto myself, was I annoying? In short, yes. Could I<br>
>> > have done things differently? Yes. Feedback on my behaviour is as much<br>
>> > appreciated as the discussion on the above bullet points.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > If you actually made it this far -- thank you! I am looking forward to<br>
>> > hearing other points of view, and as someone on IRC suggested, I will<br>
>> > try my<br>
>> > best to ensure that this goes better than the discussion on IRC was :)<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Cheers,<br>
>> > Rohan<br>
>> ><br>
>> > [1]: <a href="http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/05/15/%23ubuntu-ops.html" target="_blank">http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/05/15/%23ubuntu-ops.html</a><br>
>> > [2]: <a href="http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/05/16/%23ubuntu-ops.html" target="_blank">http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/05/16/%23ubuntu-ops.html</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > Rohan Dhruva<br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Rohan Dhruva<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Ubuntu-irc mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-irc@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank">Ubuntu-irc@lists.ubuntu.com</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-irc" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-irc</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Carl K<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Ubuntu-irc mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-irc@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank">Ubuntu-irc@lists.ubuntu.com</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-irc" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-irc</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Rohan Dhruva<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ubuntu-irc mailing list<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Carl K
</font></span></div></div>
<br>--<br>
Ubuntu-irc mailing list<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Rohan Dhruva<br><br>
</div></div>