complain about petty dictator op on freenode

[Thomas Ward]

I've been watching this for some time now, and although this message
only JUST got into my inbox today because the internet has been evil
here and blocking emails for no apparent purpose.  I feel a need to
comment on this now.

Disclaimer: I'm not an op.  I barely frequent the IRC channel, but when
I do, it's usually to lurk and provide some assistance where I can. 
People getting hostile like this usually immediately deter me from
helping other users, and brings down the channel overall, usually
requiring operator involvement if it doesn't stop.  However, I do
moderate even more dysfunctional chat rooms than #ubuntu, so I have some
insight to the process of dealing with people who are disruptive.


Now, I'm going to comment here, and whether it seems like I'm targeting
you or not, I probably am, because there's certain hostility that's
spilling over into email in an non-constructive manner and needs to be
addressed.

Moreover, you need to stop being condescending towards others in this
email chain, otherwise, nobody's going to want to read it, or worse.

On 01/12/2015 04:48 AM, Daniel Pecka wrote:
> Dear Achim,
>
> your story is cool, thanks for it, btw indeed, after second look I see
I detect condescension here.
> now that you removed a +q from me after several seconds, I didn't
> notice it when we were "in the action", but anyhow - you still don't
> understand to the essentials:
More condescension.  Stop it.  It doesn't add anything to the
discussion, and further proves the op's actions in quieting you were valid.
>
> 1) okay, I told it to you already in PM (and you attach it here, all
> good) "I overreacated a bit", that's the fact 1
 So you realize it.  Good.  You should have stopped here, and accepted
that you've overreacted and that this was necessary to prevent further
disruptivity to the channel.
> 2) whole ubuntu channel was unable to do a little favour for a random
> guy requesting simple thing (like the output from command) and the
> only what I received was bullying and a +q by local moderator (for
> indeed period shorter than minute, I didn't notice it until now),
> that's the fact 2
Correct me if I'm wrong here, as I'm still grepping logs, but if you're
joining a public support chat room and expecting people to just give you
the output of a command then you're wrong here.  (Thanks to Jose for log
trimming so I don't have to grep the hundreds of lines of logs.)  As
well, you ask for an xorg.conf that is 'generic'.  As k1l and cecja have
said in the channel, the `xrandr` output is going to vary system to
system and there is no 'generic' xorg.conf or xrandr settings.  The
video card used, the driver, what connection types, etc. ***DO***
matter.  Asking that repeatedly isn't helping, and in the span of what
appears to be ten minutes doesn't add to anything, and in fact becomes
spammy.

You also post the question THREE TIMES in less than 10 minutes. 
Constantly repeating your question and ignoring valid important
questions and input from others just means you're being disruptive. 
With each time you ask, you detract fom people wanting to help you
because `xrandr` varies insanely from one system to another.  And,
xorg.conf doesn't usually exist on its own in a default installation, as
k1l said.
> 3) moderators in channels should LEAD the others actively showing them
> behavioral instances worth to follow.
This is assuming that they were doing something wrong, in this case they
weren't.  You were somewhat condescending towards people on the channel
at 22:24 in the logs that Jose trimmed.

> No, sorry, it's sad and pathetic

More condescension.
> that "you do it in your free time" but in my opinion you're not the
> person who meets this criteria.
Everyone in #ubuntu is there on their own free time, giving their
valuable time to the channel, ops included.  I may not be an op in
#ubuntu, and instead in the bitcoin channels, but I do that out of my
own time - the operators in the #ubuntu channel are no exception.  Under
what basis do you determine that someone doesn't meet this criterion?
> You're now just only trying to save
> your +o elitists ass with pathetic excuses about your free time ..
> That's fact 3.
And once more you're showing your condescension.
> I really don't enjoy this situation, really and I really don't enjoy
> suing and being bloodthirsty like I am actually, 
If you don't enjoy being this way, don't get riled up over something
that doesn't need that kind of explosion in the first place.
> but let's say, that
> I'm doing this for a ubuntu community. 
I'd say you're not following the community guidelines, if you're going
to the mailing list and being condescending towards people, and in the
channel ignoring valid important questions being posed to you and your
friend to try and actually help get you the answer you're looking for.
> I'm also "ubuntist" (however
> not using ubuntu) and ubuntu moderator 
But you aren't a moderator, so this hypothetical isn't valid.  I'm not
either, but having opped dysfunctional channels for a while and brought
some level of order, I've got a viewpoint into operators that you
probably don't.
> (moreover paradoxly placed at
> top 5 positions in the poll "The biggest CZ/SK ubuntist" in several
> consecutive years)
Irrelevant - polls don't accurately grab the overall userbase, and most
of those polls are biased and likely wouldn't take into account anything
even REMOTELY relevant to the channel and support..
> and I'm "ALSO DOING IT ALL FOR UBUNTU (or suse for
> instance) IN MY FREE TIME without bullying other ppl and abusing a
> moderator rights !!!
I looked at the logs in #ubuntu for the time involved, pulling them from
the irclogs site, and I frankly agree with the channel operators in this
manner - you were constantly repeating your questions, and *ignoring*
important input and questions from the community to try and assist you
in getting an answer.  Doing that doesn't help, per my prior comments above.

I also fail to see any operator abuse here.

> regards, daniel
>
> S Pozdravem / Best Regards
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Daniel Pecka - dpecka at opensuse.org
> SCSA, SCNA, RHCE, CLP
>
I'm also going to mark up my observations here, for Achim's response,
because as someone who deals with drama on a much more insane basis in
the #bitcoin channels on a daily basis, I think it warrants a second
opinion on these things:
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 3:30 AM, Achim Behrens <Achim.Behrens at gmx.de> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> since i am the op involved in this incident and beeing accused of some
>> things here i will answer to this thread and explain my view and what i
>> itended with my (re)actions. Its gonna be somewhat lengthy, but i am
>> quite sick of beeing called petty dictator, nazi (last incidents), or
>> other insults while offering my freetime to support ubuntu users as a
>> supporter or beeing op trying to sort a dramaless climate which offers
>> user the chance to receive help to have a good experience with ubuntu
>> and in the community.
>>
>> So the user ntz joined and asked for someone pasting him an output. I
>> asked for more hardware and background information since it sounds like
>> a common issue with an easy fix (install the proper driver or having a
>> bad adapter). I receive the first "i know it all better than you all"
>> attitude demanding the output.
This attitude alone from ntz is bad for the channel, and using this
attitude is detrimental to the channel.  Everyone knows this, including
the non-ops in the channel (granted, some of those users could have been
better behaved).
>> I try to explain why i think there is a better solution and still think
>> we can discuss the issue and take a look what is the issue behind that
>> at all. Receiving a "i know everything" attitude.
>> That is the point where i told him that i dont like that attitude and
>> that i will step down from trying to help him.
>> So far i was only "a Supporter"; i could just have given him the
>> outputline but i thought it would not help him anyway and offered my
>> help instead and asked for more details.
Logs support this observation.
>> After that the user gets in some trouble with another user  (cecja), who
>> stated at the beginning, that he did not think that this paste would
>> help him anyway, after he (ntz) makes a statement which could
>> interpreted as calling all other users "rude and stupid".
The specific statement is here (these're pulled right from irclogs):

[21:22] <ntz> why the heck you want to discuss with random guy requesting a little favour from you ? can you just do that favour ? frankly I think it's rude and stupid - and don't take it wrong

And yes, I agree with Achim here, this statement can be interpreted as calling all others 'rude and stupid' and is condescending to the entire channel.


>> That leads
>> cecja to the statement: " 22:23 < cecja> ntz: stop plenking and gtfo".
>> I tell cecja that there is no need to become rude. This is where i start
>> changing from the user/supporter role to the Operator role. After that
>> ntz states clearly that he is not interessted in any technical support
>> anymore  but threatening he will escalate it to this mailinglist with
>> logs and insults cecja as "idiot".
>> On that second time i tell ntz to stop it.
Achim was correct here - switching from the 'support' role to the
'operator' role when cecja became rude.  However, it's not clear cut
that ntz didn't want technical support, EXCEPT for where they say "I'm
taking this to the mailing list" and then proceeding to paste for a
third time (in less than ten minutes) their question (which at this
point is now becoming 'spammy' and worthy of operator intervention).
>>
>> Cecja makes another comment, while ntz now starts pasting his first
>> question again. So i mute ntz for preventing the channel from more
>> drama. 
Replace "drama" with "spam" here if you want to be nitpicky, but
ultimately I agree here.
>> After 14 seconds i unmute ntz again.
>> I could have muted cecja, too, but it seemed to me that ntz was the
>> aggressor who started insulting and was not going to stop, neither with
>> insults nor with making more statements. which means other users, still
>> getting support, would have suffered even more from this drama.
Agreed with this statement - I see it in far more disruptive channels
than #ubuntu all the time, and when people don't stop, it usually ends
up with heavier op actions.
>>
>> so tl;dr:
>> ntz asked for support, was offered other support, showed some attitude
>> and then went to insulting and threatening leading into a 14 seconds mute.
I agree with this TL;DR assessment, not because Achim is an op, but
because as someone who routinely bans people for this behavior in far
more disruptive channels, I believe the assessment is valid.
>>
>> I will attach the log from the PM between ntz and me immediatly after i
>> unmuted him.
>>
>>
>>
>> to some other concerns mentioned in this Thread so far:
>>
>> the "!ask" factoid was not directed to ntz. It was meant for another
>> user asking for help just before ntz joined. If that was confusing or
>> read as rude, i am sorry for that. Usually i include the nicknames to
>> factoids to adress the users; i do not know why i did not here.
>>
>> The comments from cecja are not acceptable for #ubuntu and do not
>> represent the community. There is no excuse for this sort of comments
>> even when the other user starts insulting.
Agreed.  This does not mean the ops are accepting of cecja's actions,
but rather that their actions were the result of ntz's actions and that
the ops believed that ntz was the aggressor in the case (which after
reviewing the logs myself, I agree with).
>>
>> I did not remove ntz from the channel. I used my channel access to temp
>> mute him to prevent the channel from more offtopic (its a technical
>> support channel and at this time the involved users were beyond the
>> point of coming back to support and were just making statements meant to
>> harm others). I do not know where the accusation comes from i would have
>> removed ntz from the channel.
Agreed with this assessment as well - there's no indications anywhere
that ntz was going to be removed from the channel.
>>
>> best regards
>>
>> --
>> Achim Behrens aka k1l
>>
>>
>> --- Log opened Fr Jan 09 22:25:56 2015
>> 2015-01-09:22:25:56-!- Irssi: Starting query in Freenode with ntz
>> 2015-01-09:22:25:56<             ntz> if this is the reason for insulting me I really don't know what else and quietting me I really don't know .. I'm going to report you
>> 2015-01-09:22:26:24<             k1l> ntz stop making a drama on purpose
>> 2015-01-09:22:27:00<             ntz> sorry, damage taken .. it's too much .. I'm here on freenode since its beginning .. this is really too much
>> 2015-01-09:22:27:39<             ntz> I don't remember if I ever witnesssed (even not being involved) in similar incident in past 8 years
>> 2015-01-09:22:29:40<             k1l> i think your are standing in your own way here. or more the one from your buddies who need help. i told you that this is related to the video cards and driver setup. you dont need to fiddle with xorg yourself in the first place on ubuntu.
>> 2015-01-09:22:30:29<             ntz> reread what I said .. it should tell something like this
>> 2015-01-09:22:30:30<             ntz> Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1600 x 900, maximum 32767 x 32767
>> 2015-01-09:22:30:39<             ntz> maximum 32767 x 32767
>> 2015-01-09:22:30:54<             ntz> ^^ don't you see the difference in Screen 0: minimum 640 x 480, current 1024 x 768, maximum 1024 x 768
>> 2015-01-09:22:31:09<             k1l> i am ery disssapointed for you saying you are a long term freenode user and start to blackmail users immediately
>> 2015-01-09:22:31:52<             k1l> ntz not uncommon for a wrong driver setup. but since you dont want help on the issue from my side good luck with that
>> 2015-01-09:22:31:58<             ntz> no sorry, you asked ... I'm only going to finish my email to  ubuntu-irc at lists.ubuntu.com ... will be from dpecka at opensuse.org
>> 2015-01-09:22:32:06<             ntz> JFYI
>> 2015-01-09:22:32:25<             ntz> now have a nice day and sorry for PM, i'd really didn't plan to PM with you .. really
>> --- Log closed Fr Jan 09 22:37:27 2015
>> --- Log opened Fr Jan 09 22:54:18 2015
>> 2015-01-09:22:54:18<             ntz> http://susepaste.org/view/raw/af22d563
>> 2015-01-09:22:54:49<             ntz> ^^ bon apetit .. you forced me for FUCKING first time I'm on freenode to do something like that
>> 2015-01-09:22:55:17<             ntz> CONGRATS idiot ..
>> 2015-01-09:22:55:29<             k1l> ntz i dont get why you are going nuts at all?
>> 2015-01-09:22:56:57<             k1l> people did try to help you since you were asking for help on a solution that seems to be really difficult instead of going for a easy solution.
>> 2015-01-09:22:59:33<             k1l> i think this is the first time i will answer a claim that i am bullying as op. i think this pm will prove that i am not what you want to make me look like.
>> 2015-01-09:23:01:16<             ntz> question yourself, not me .. okay, maybe I overreacted a bit, but if it leads to one less petty pussycat being OP on freenode I'd be very glad .. yes, it's bloodthirsty but really, I tell you, if your brain have at least two cells you'll thank me later for saving your soul
>> 2015-01-09:23:02:08<             ntz> now enough, i'm not interested to any further discussing of this matter
>> 2015-01-09:23:02:13<             ntz> regards !!
>> --- Log closed Fr Jan 09 23:07:27 2015
>>
Further, the actions in PM are worse, and support my conclusion that ntz
is condescending and unwilling to follow the guidelines for community
members.

If it were my decision, I would have removed ntz from *all* the
channels, and left a ban in place.  This kind of after-the-fact
obscenity and rudeness in private message after the fact doesn't help
the case, and only adds to the initial observations i've made.  You've
blown a tiny little insignificant action into a massive explosion of
unnecessary rage and misdirection condescension.

Now, since you've likely gotten to the bottom of this message now,
you'll note I point out how many times in this email alone there's been
condescension.  To establish respectful discourse, you have to maintain
a level of civility and noncondescension in your discussion points. 
Failing that, respectful, meaningful discourse and discussion over an
incident or issue is not possible.  Throughout your emails, Daniel,
you've been consistently shown this condescension and inability to
interpret statements correctly.  You make statements pointing at three
'facts' which in fact when you rip apart your statements end up just
being full of condescending remarks and irrelevant items.

I suggest, Daniel, that you walk away.  Cool off.  Relax a while.  Leave
the issue alone.  Your additional condescension being added to the
mailing list is going to get NOTHING done, and in fact further support
the IRC operators in this case, as it only supports the conclusion that
you don't want to get help, have a 'I know everything' attitude, and are
condescending towards others.

And you're free to throw flak my way, however, I'm a neutral observer
here, and I am merely dissecting your statements, Achim's statements,
and comparing them against the IRC logs which are the only bit of
information actually available on this that is irrefutable,
publicly-logged fact.  Giving me flak in this case won't add to anything.


------
Thomas