Ubuntu IRC Dispute - Sent to you as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/AppealProcess

[Bobby Coop]

List members,

	First of all, sorry to bother you with this, I really tried every
alternative to e-mailing the IRC Council to settle this, but the last
straw was when an operator named Seveas banned me from #ubuntu-ops and
prevented me from trying to get other ops who were online involved in my
dispute.  Please do me the favor of reading about this dispute and
letting me know what your opinion of it is.

The situation (I'll put logs at the bottom) -

	There was an animal rights debate in #ubuntu-offtopic that got a bit
heated (in the operator's eyes) and Seveas and ompaul had said that it
must stop.  Someone made a comment directed towards me after this had
occurred, and I responded to it and was banned by Seveas.  I wasn't
happy, but this is not the basis of my complaint.

	I sent Seveas a private message roughly 5-10 minutes later asking about
the ban, as it had not been lifted, and received no response.  I tried
again to contact him via PM 5 minutes later with no response.

	I tried to get Seveas's attention in #ubuntu (I was unaware that there
was an op channel at this point) by making the comment 'Seveas: alll i
am sayyyingg is give cooop a chance', which was admittedly me trying to
be cute.  Seveas warned me about being offtopic, and persisted in not
responding to my private messages.  After 20 minutes of attempting to
contact him privately, I sent '!offtopic | Seveas, coopster would like
you to know that he loves you and that' to #ubuntu, causing ubotu to
address the message towards Seveas.  This was an hour after the original
ban from -offtopic, and I was not terribly happy with the fact that I
couldn't communicate with the op who banned me.

	At this point I was banned from #ubuntu.  I looked at the website and
went to #ubuntu-ops to try to talk about the situation.  I did not
appreciate Seveas's attitude towards me, but the logs are there so I
won't characterize it any more than that.  After prolonged discussion
with Seveas and his insistence that nothing would be done and he would
unban me no sooner than Tuesday of next week (6 days from now), despite
the fact that I actively do help out in #ubuntu, I tried to get other
ops involved.  Seveas was not happy with my description of what had
happened and banned me from #ubuntu-ops at that point.


	I was accepting of my ban from -offtopic, and wanted to ask about the
terms.  I was very unhappy about being banned from #ubuntu based on
three lines of chat over a 20 minute period, but the fact that I was
muted in a channel that supposedly serves the purpose of dispute
resolution among others is outrageous.

	I actively help in #ubuntu, as well as seek help there.  I actively
contribute to the wiki and help the community.  I am very very
displeased with how this op has treated me, and it is only because I
genuinely want to be in this community for quite some time that I am
taking the time and effort to resolve this issue as opposed to just not
returning to IRC or the community in general.

	Seveas's actions go against _many_ of the goals expressed in the
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ,
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct ,
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines , and
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/OperatorGuidelines codes of conduct,
most infuriatingly he muted me in a public dispute resolution channel
when the operator guidelines prohibit his muting me even on a personal
basis.

	Please forward this to the IRC Council with my request that they lift
my ban and consider action against Seveas.  I'm not requesting that the
operator be banned or de-opped or anything severe, I understand that he
may have just been having a bad day, but it's taken an enormous amount
of effort not to let him ruin my ties with the Ubuntu community, and I'd
appreciate it if he could be instructed as how to behave in this
situation.

	Please, let me know how you and the IRC Council feel about this issue,
regardless of who it agrees with.

Thanks,
Bobby Coop

-----

Logs of original ban from -offtopic:

2007-08-09T00:09:44 <DWSR> magnetron: First of all, I'm going to say
that not all religious people treat atheists like this, but many do.
2007-08-09T00:09:44 <DWSR> Especially in the US.
2007-08-09T00:09:49 <mc44> Seveas: I'd start with scooter jokes
2007-08-09T00:09:50 *** DWSR (DWSR!n=DWSR at xtreme-42-120.dyn.aci.on.ca)
has left #ubuntu-offtopic (requested by Seveas: "religion
--> /dev/null")
2007-08-09T00:09:59 <Stormx2> xD
2007-08-09T00:10:01 <Seveas> __END__
2007-08-09T00:10:01 *** DWSR has joined #ubuntu-offtopic
2007-08-09T00:10:04 <Stormx2> We all saw THAT one coming
2007-08-09T00:10:06 <DWSR> That's not very nice.
2007-08-09T00:10:07 <ompaul> edge cases
2007-08-09T00:10:11 <ompaul> are not tollerated
2007-08-09T00:10:16 <Seveas> DWSR, indeed, that's why you were kicked
2007-08-09T00:10:20 <DWSR> !return | ompaul
2007-08-09T00:10:20 <ubotu> ompaul: Please try to keep your
questions/responses on one line - don't use the "Enter" key as
punctuation!
2007-08-09T00:10:20 <mc44> DWSR: pay attention to the rules
2007-08-09T00:10:20 *** DarkED has quit IRC (No route to host)
2007-08-09T00:10:26 <Stormx2> xDD
2007-08-09T00:10:31 <DWSR> Seveas: Alrighty, me stop.
2007-08-09T00:10:39 <DWSR> All this debating, so I'm going to get food.
2007-08-09T00:10:41 * ompaul raises an eyebrow
2007-08-09T00:10:43 <coopster> heh
2007-08-09T00:10:59 <DWSR> i just missed out "has made me hungry".rofl
>.<
2007-08-09T00:11:03 <DWSR> wow, I need food.
2007-08-09T00:11:06 *** OldPink has quit IRC ("Leaving.")
2007-08-09T00:11:06 <Seveas> ompaul, I'm seeing your eyebrow and raising
you 5 eyelashes
2007-08-09T00:11:12 *** Kill_X has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
2007-08-09T00:11:13 <mc44> Seveas: are you flirting?
2007-08-09T00:11:16 <DWSR> rofl
2007-08-09T00:11:17 * magnetron folds
2007-08-09T00:11:20 <DWSR> This is so dodgy
2007-08-09T00:11:21 <Seveas> mc44, :)
2007-08-09T00:11:37 * Seveas folds up magnetron
2007-08-09T00:11:47 <magnetron> ty, Seveas
2007-08-09T00:11:51 <Stormx2> coopster: What are you doing on IRC when
you could be out commiting brutal sexually-motivated murders? Once
they're dead, the won't remember it! Remember?
2007-08-09T00:11:52 <ompaul> mc44, you don't what me and Seveas can do
to images and you don't want to :P
2007-08-09T00:12:01 *** Spaceman3750 has joined #ubuntu-offtopic
2007-08-09T00:12:06 *** Stormx2 (Stormx2!
n=Stormx2 at host-87-240-137-127.hi-velocity.net) has left #ubuntu-offtopic
(requested by Seveas: "__END__")
2007-08-09T00:12:12 *** Stormx2 has joined #ubuntu-offtopic
2007-08-09T00:12:23 <ompaul> Stormx2, did I mention the lack of edge
cases
2007-08-09T00:12:30 <Stormx2> Sorry, sir.
2007-08-09T00:12:32 <Stormx2> Anyway.
2007-08-09T00:12:34 <Seveas> next one to ignore the __END__ will be sent
to ##politics
2007-08-09T00:12:34 <mc44> ompaul: I'd like to see pictures :)
2007-08-09T00:12:52 <ompaul> mc44, you most likely have and did not know
what you were looking at
2007-08-09T00:12:53 <ompaul> :P
2007-08-09T00:13:37 <ompaul> Seveas, we should send a ubuntu and
gnewsense cd to someone who can figure out what we did - and is was not
at UDS
2007-08-09T00:13:45 <ompaul> is was?
2007-08-09T00:13:48 * ompaul smacks self
2007-08-09T00:13:53 <Xoris> Seveas: i know the end is coming, no need to
remind me thanks
2007-08-09T00:13:53 <coopster> Seveas, ... wait, so no ethics then?
2007-08-09T00:14:03 <Stormx2> !retu... oh nevermind
2007-08-09T00:14:10 <rodserling> politics is dead
2007-08-09T00:14:10 <Seveas> Xoris, THE END IS NIGH!
2007-08-09T00:14:19 <mc44> _NIGH_
2007-08-09T00:14:20 <magnetron> anyone tested OpenGEM?
2007-08-09T00:14:26 <ompaul> mc44, you are not the end
2007-08-09T00:14:30 <mc44> am too
2007-08-09T00:14:31 <ompaul> you might be the be all
2007-08-09T00:14:32 <Seveas> rodserling, politics == real life
trolling :)
2007-08-09T00:14:44 <rodserling> :D
2007-08-09T00:14:46 <coopster> ah, what the heck
2007-08-09T00:14:47 <coopster> Stormx2, i don't believe that it is
ethical to treat humans as objects. Your statement presupposes that.
2007-08-09T00:15:07 <Stormx2> coopster: I fear kicking.
2007-08-09T00:15:15 <coopster> yeah, it would be justified.
2007-08-09T00:15:27 <rodserling> I can't wait until Cannibalism is
legal!
2007-08-09T00:15:30 <coopster> but that was an outrageous extrapolation
and you know it.
2007-08-09T00:15:55 *** coopster (coopster!
n=bcoop at c-71-236-54-213.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) has left #ubuntu-offtopic
(requested by Seveas)


--------

Logs of ban from #ubuntu - 

2007-08-09T01:05:26 <nephish> h3lmut_: ok, changes are applied.
2007-08-09T01:05:30 *** UObean|Laptop has joined #ubuntu
2007-08-09T01:05:31 <kyncani> fungos: ha, well then, you're outta luck,
i dont know
2007-08-09T01:05:37 *** Hidan has quit IRC ("Ex-Chat")
2007-08-09T01:05:37 *** Creed has joined #ubuntu
2007-08-09T01:05:44 *** sharif has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection
reset by peer))
2007-08-09T01:05:51 *** Grungebunny has joined #ubuntu
2007-08-09T01:05:55 <zer0db> Seveas ok thanks ...i must do it from
command line the package manager doesn't remove with out taking the deps
with it i guess
2007-08-09T01:06:02 *** kuyky has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection
reset by peer))
2007-08-09T01:06:08 *** Anti has quit IRC ("Ex-Chat")
2007-08-09T01:06:09 <h3lmut> neph - hit the printers tab on the cups
page and make sure it's published
2007-08-09T01:06:13 *** frankydp has joined #ubuntu
2007-08-09T01:06:16 *** UObean|Laptop has quit IRC (Remote closed the
connection)
2007-08-09T01:06:19 *** battlecat has joined #ubuntu
2007-08-09T01:06:20 <Grungebunny> Hello, what are the Linux answers to
utorrent and p2p sharing?
2007-08-09T01:06:27 <battlecat> what package has the kernel source?
2007-08-09T01:06:30 *** UObean|Laptop has joined #ubuntu
2007-08-09T01:06:35 <Creed> Has anyone made an OpenVPN network to play
Battle.Net games (uses local UDP packets to advertise LAN games)? Would
appreciate some help as to how to set it up.
2007-08-09T01:06:42 <Seveas> Grungebunny, creative commons and freely
licensed music/movies
2007-08-09T01:06:42 *** DWSR has joined #ubuntu
2007-08-09T01:06:44 <coopster> !offtopic | Seveas, coopster would like
you to know that he loves you and that
2007-08-09T01:06:44 <ubotu> Seveas, coopster would like you to know that
he loves you and that: #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, #ubuntu+1
supports the development version of Ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic is for
random chatter. Welcome!
2007-08-09T01:06:47 <h3lmut> neph - open tcp/631 if you've got the
firewall turned on
2007-08-09T01:06:53 <neverblue> when I connect to my other box, I dont
have an X session, but its running, am I doing something wrong on the
server or client end of my vnc session?
2007-08-09T01:06:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Seveas
2007-08-09T01:06:56 <PurpleFool> Seveas Is it generally necessary to
build kernel packages for xen servers?
2007-08-09T01:06:59 *** coopster (coopster!
n=bcoop at c-71-236-54-213.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) has left #ubuntu (requested
by Seveas)

-----

Logs of ban from -ops -

* Topic for #ubuntu-ops is: Welcome to the home of the operators of all
Ubuntu (and derivatives) channels | This channel is for operator/abuse
questions only | Support in #ubuntu, #kubuntu etc... | IRC team info:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam | The IRC council reserves the right to
remove idlers from the channel
* Topic for #ubuntu-ops set by Hobbsee at Sun Jul 15 12:07:02 2007
-ChanServ- [#ubuntu-ops] Welcome to #ubuntu-ops - Home of the operators
for official K/X/Ed/Ubuntu channels. Questions, requests and complaints
about Ubuntu related channels and their people can be filed here"
<coopster> Seveas, I'm going to need to talk with you.
<Seveas> I warned you about being offtopic in #ubuntu, and yet you did
it again
<PriceChild> And were cheeky while you were at it.
<coopster> Seveas, I asked twice in the only channel that you were in
that I was in, #ubuntu, about my (questionable imho) ban from
#ubuntu-offtopic, in light of the fact that you do not respond to my
messages.
<coopster> Seveas, I am an active contributor to this community, and I
actively help those that I can in that channel.  This is somewhat silly.
<Seveas> questionable? Don't make me laugh.
<coopster> I caused exactly three lines of chat in #ubuntu to be
offtopic, nevermind that I couldn't actually be off-topic in
#ubuntu-offtopic
<Seveas> overdue is a more correct description
<coopster> Seveas, whatever, keep me banned from #ubuntu-offtopic,
that's no longer the issue.
<coopster> I'm not some 15 year old who was spamming goatse in the
channel.  Over the line.
<PriceChild> coopster, after being warned to stop the offtopic chatter
in #ubuntu. Did you chat about anything other than support?
<Seveas> he only wrote one more line, basically repeating the one line I
saw from him before. Asking for my attention
<Seveas> after his first attempt he was warned about being offtopic
<coopster> PriceChild, yes.  I was given a warning after I issued one
line of chat.  After that warning, over 10 minutes later, I issued
another line of chat in an attempt to contact an operator that would not
respond to me via PM.
<coopster> An attempt to contact Seveas regarding a ban from an official
channel, which was ignored via PM so I attempted to make contact via a
public channel, my only other means.
<PriceChild> Ok.
<coopster> That I was banned from #ubuntu, a channel in which I actively
take part in _helping the community_, over my attempts to contact an
operator who would not discuss a ban placed against me via PM is
somewhat ... over the line
<Seveas> you were not ignored, my channel list in xchat is simply too
big and your pm was offscreen
<coopster> Seveas, semantics.  That was precisely the reason I tried to
contact you in a place where you were liable to see my messages.
<Seveas> a little patience does not hurt
<Seveas> especially for banned people
<Seveas> and going offtopic in #ubuntu doesn't increase the chance of a
speedy answer/unbanning
<coopster> Certainly, I did not even say a single word in #ubuntu about
that ban for a good 10 minutes.  During which I sent you ONE pm that was
ignored.
<Seveas> so?
-Xoris- propose that you won't question the -offtopic ban and just let
him decide when to lift it, but that the ban in #ubuntu is lifted and
you're kept a close eye upon to make sure you do offer support, and just
that
<Seveas> <Seveas> a little patience does not hurt
<Seveas> <Seveas> especially for banned people
<Seveas> I have more things to do than discussing with people who
deserve to be banned
>Xoris< negative.  This is out of line.
* jrib (n=jrib at upstream/dev/jrib) has joined #ubuntu-ops
* ChanServ gives voice to jrib
<coopster> Seveas, I apologize for bringing my issue to #ubuntu, where
it should not have been.  However, forcibly severing my contact with the
ubuntu community over three lines of chat in a 20+ minute period is
unwarranted.  Particularly when those lines of chat were only directed
at getting your attention.  I respectfully request that you lift my ban
from #ubuntu.
<coopster> In light of the fact that I contribute both there in the
channel and to the official community wiki.
<Seveas> in the light of you being banned from -offtopic for very good
reasons and subsequently went offtopic in #ubuntu (and using the bot for
that), the ban will not be lifted
* Cannot join #ubuntu (You are banned).
<coopster> ...
<coopster> Seveas, and on what terms is this ban from #ubuntu?
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Seveas
* Seveas sets mode -c #ubuntu-ops
* ChanServ removes channel operator status from Seveas
<Seveas> in the light of you being banned from -offtopic for very good
reasons and subsequently went offtopic in #ubuntu (and using the bot for
that), the ban will not be lifted
<Seveas> it's in bold
<coopster> Seveas, I did not ask for the justification, I asked for the
terms.  The length, duration, attributes of the ban itself.
<Seveas> there's no fixed period set for that
<Seveas> but I'm not going to remove you before my holiday, so unless
other ops do it, tuesday is your soonest options
<Seveas> s/s$//
<coopster> Seveas,  Right.  So in light of the Operator Guidelines at
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/OperatorGuidelines that prescribe
warning followed by kicking as the appropriate measures to have taken in
this situation, I again respectfully request that you remove my ban.
<PriceChild> hmm <greenmanwitch> spam.... wonder whether to do anything
<Seveas> coopster, they are guidelines, not rules. Given that the
#ubuntu situation was not an incident by itself, but a result of another
ban, the ban is fully justified
<PriceChild> coopster, those are "guidelines".
<coopster> Seveas, PriceChild,  I am aware of the distinction, and am of
the opinion that there is not a pressing reason to deviate from those
guidelines in this situation.  the #ubuntu situation was in fact a
separate issue, as i was banned from _that_ channel in particular which
ought to be based on my behaviour in that channel.
<Seveas> coopster, we don't share that opinion
<Seveas> eot for now, not going to waste more time on this
<coopster> This is ... for lack of a desire to use profanity and get yet
another ban based out of some sort of personal grudge, I'll just say
that this is ridiculous, and even more so in that none of my
'infractions' were malicious or abhorrent in the least.  What is the
official complaint procedure?
<Seveas> you knew how to find the ops guidelines. Complaint procedure is
right around the corner
<coopster> ...
<Seveas> and you don't have to play johnny-be-good in here, we've all
seen your behaviour in -offtopic
<coopster> Seveas, my discussion of animal rights, in which i did not
become offensive or vulgar?
<Seveas> if you like to call it that way
<coopster> I recall it, and I doubt that others would come to the same
conclusion that my comments there reveal anything un-'johnny-be-good'
about myself.
<coopster> Again, could you please tell me the official procedure for
registering a complaint against an IRC Operator?
<coopster> Seveas, Sigh. At this point I am sorely tempted just to
remove myself from this community, if I were in your shoes it would be
curious why I am so intent on not getting excluded from a channel that I
did not even actively take pleasure in 'disrupting', unless of course
there's some non-sinister motivation for it.
* mneptok wanders past, blinking ...
<coopster> Ops, dispute resolution team members, at this point I am
requesting that some outside ops intervene here.  I've tried to discuss
this situation with Seveas, but for some reason which I am honestly not
to clear about this operator has determined that I am 'not good
peoples'.  Can someone please help me resolve this?
<Seveas> hi blinky
<Seveas> mneptok, isn't it bedtime for you? :)
<coopster> I'm not trying to be rude or demanding, I just honestly feel
that this situation is a bit over the top.
<Seveas> it is. you should just be patient
<Seveas> you're going very over the top with your stubbornness
<mneptok> Seveas: 4 more hours of work :/
<Seveas> mneptok, fun
<Seveas> changed shifts then?
<coopster> I've been banned from a community support channel in which I
both request and provide support on the grounds of three lines of
'offtopic' conversation in which I attempted to contact an operator who
did not respond to PMs.  This is very counter to any sort of community
attitude.
<Seveas> coopster, now you are just lying and forgetting to tell most of
the story
<coopster> If I didn't actually care for the Ubuntu
communitiy/spirit/cause/whatever this would have been more than enough
to make me just leave and not come back.
<Seveas> so come back when you can talk like a reasonable person instead
of that
* ChanServ gives channel operator status to Seveas
* Seveas sets ban on %*!*@c-71-236-54-213.hsd1.tn.comcast.net
* ChanServ removes channel operator status from Seveas
<coopster> Seveas, that is not true.  That is all that occurred in
#ubuntu, the channel which I was banned from 
* #ubuntu-ops :Cannot send to channel
<Tm_T> err
<coopster> !!!
* #ubuntu-ops :Cannot send to channel
* Tm_T doesn't understand
<Seveas> !test
>Tm_T< Can you please get involved here?  This is getting more out of
hand than it was, I fear :-/
<stdin> the bot it sleeping 
<stdin> has been for a while, I sent it a !ping about 5 mins ago, no
reply yet
* ubotu has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
<Seveas> restarting him
<Seveas> host had network probs
* nixternal (n=nixterna at ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.nixternal) has joined
#ubuntu-ops
* ChanServ gives voice to nixternal
* ubotu (n=ubotu at ubuntu/bot/ubotu) has joined #ubuntu-ops
<Seveas> !test
<ubotu> failed
* nalioth removes ban on *!*@unaffiliated/nalioth/bot/ubot3
<mneptok> man, *someone* needs a hug ...
* mneptok hides under coopster's bed
* Tm_T hugs Tm_T
* nalioth hands mneptok his horns and glowing red eyes (for the back of
his head)
<Xoris> hmm... i was in that discussion in -offtopic, for what i'm
concerned i think that guy sounds reasonable enough to get a second
chance rather than just getting pissed off and leaving forever. sure he
insisted a little, but... anyway, you can always ban him again :D
<Xoris> need to head to bed anyway... bye all
<stdin> bans aren't (by policy) "forever"
<mc44> the leaving of the community forever, was his point
<stdin> up to them if they feel they have to leave, not that we want
them to though 
* maxamillion (n=adam at mobile-166-217-084-046.mycingular.net) has joined
#ubuntu-ops
* ChanServ gives voice to maxamillion
<jrib> Seveas: hey, bantracker seems to think TaJMoX!*@*!
#ubuntu-read-topic is still banned in #ubuntu, but it's been cleared
<Seveas> jrib, then it missed the unbanning
* Cannot join #ubuntu (You are banned).
<jrib> argh, resetting ban and then lifting it again didn't work.  oh
well