Communications 2.0

Tim darkxst at fastmail.fm
Tue May 3 07:59:56 UTC 2016



On 03/05/16 17:21, Jasper Backer wrote:
> Dropping in some 2 cents again for what it's worth.
>
> Greets,
> Jasper
>
> On 03-05-16 03:03, Tim wrote:
>> I suppose part of that might be that people who have grown up with the modern web find IRC and mailing lists archaic and a steep learning curve?
> Yeah, might actually be. However for mailing lists I suppose it's something that is really unavoidable (more or less mandatory for any
> involvement).
>>> IMO (unfortunately) IRC is still a main communication tool and somewhat directly related with being in these (OS/dev/test/etc) circles.
>> IRC is critical for the development team and to a lesser extent QA, and we will always continue to have a presence there, since that is where
>> all the developers are, if you want to talk to other Ubuntu/Debian/Upstream teams, they are all there (albeit on different servers). Its really
>> outside these teams, that people just seem avoid it, in fact a number of our core team members refuse to use IRC and it is really this group
>> that has embraced Slack. Then you also have the 20odd random users per day that come onto IRC ask a question and then leave after 30s, because
>> they did not get an instant response!
> Just for clarity's sake, with "unfortunately" I meant that I really think people should be up there among the others of the community / open
> source project world. It's the most open platform you can have, although indeed people hop in, expect instant answers and are gone after a
> minute. Takes some time (years) to get some netiquette down maybe.
Yes but we half half a dozen core team members mostly team leaders who have refused to use IRC (for years), yet have embraced slack. The invite
situation is crap, but there are ways around that (auto-invite scripts). I think using IRC is less critical for the teams that don't really have
to interact with the rest of the Ubuntu Sphere. We can also potentially bridge the two channels using a bot also. And at the end of the day if
it really takes of we can move to matterhost, so long as we can arrange hosting.
>>>> Mailing Lists – Generally work well if you constantly follow the messages, many complain about it being hard to catch up with past
>>>> discussions,
>>>> which I guess is particularily true if you use the web interface.
>>> However, again, this is "classic" to any distro - How come we can't utilize this properly?
>> The Mailing lists work great for the medium term type conversations, and again we wouldnt be about to replace them. However it is not exactly
>> easy to find past messages, the web interface for the archives is anything but easy, sure you can use google foo to find message, but then you
>> are back to the web interface trying to follow one by one a long thread.
> I myself never use the web interface - I just filter down any e-mail to this mailing list to a separate folder and check that from time to
> time. Then again, I still am very much for using decent desktop e-mail clients (Thunderbird and the likes).
If you joined the list today, you would need to import the archives into your email client, certainly possible with Thunderbird, no idea if its
possible with webmail like gmail. And clearly not obvious for someone who is new to email lists!
>>> IMO the wiki is a huge non-organized mess. Same would go for the website which is unprofessional and unclear. Luckily the distro speaks for
>>> itself, but the website and wiki do no good as it lowers the quality perception on the product.
>> The website is being redesigned now, although this has taken way to long, we have a great design lined up by the marketing guys. The content
>> however at this stage remains largely unfinished (we have the home page and download page and that is about all). We certainly need to improve
>> the wiki also, but at the same time think about what information goes on the website, what goes into the wiki, do we duplicate some of the info?
> In the current situation, I'd link the website straight to the wiki and be done with it, as even the wiki looks more 'this is going to be
> something I'd like to use'. The quality perception difference between the website/current "project look" and the actual distro is honestly day
> and night (where the distro is doing very well, not so much for the rest).
You did see the mock-ups in the other email right?
https://www.behance.net/gallery/35183935/ubuntugnomeorg-the-redesign-V2
> Hmm, I know for certainty that Discourse can work decently for 'long stretched discussions' - It's just not for us I think. It's also a bad
> development I think that some refuse to use IRC or 'traditional methods' in favor of something much less easily accessible (Slack). I do quite
> like Slack and Discourse, but I doubt if they're for us do their more closed nature (well, Slack more than Discourse, the latter still could
> be feasible for e.g. newcomers, assuming we can get a lively community there).
We have been trying to push users onto the traditional methods for years, it has not worked! These users love slack (I mainly just connect from
my IRC client so loose all the fancy features, and its just another channel). IRC is critical for Development and QA leads, there are many
others outside that group (design, marketing, wiki, general testing) that just don't use IRC
How is discourse closed?
>>
>> Either way I am certainly not suggesting we rip everything out and start from scratch, more what can we do to improve and fill in the gaps? If
>> you strip it right back to the basics we have two areas that really could use improvement:
>>
>> 1. New Contributors find it really hard to get up to speed. They want to know things like what has been going on, what are the plans, not just
>> things like how do I test Ubuntu GNOME or sit down and work out the team structure. Many potential contributors have come along and just given
>> up, we need to make it easier for them to get involved.
> I very much agree with that. I consider myself one of them. I'd like to contribute where I can, but as said, I perceive the path to that very
> steep and 'unwelcoming' in a way, as if every step you take is carefully monitored not to harm the project (Which in the end makes for no
> contributions at all).
I think most of the 'unwelcoming' goes towards new users that come in and suggest massive changes to the project. They then go on a trolling
rage when they don't get their way. Part of my thinking if would be much easier for new contributors if there was a central visible list of
tasks that need doing. They can start small, become known/respected amongst the community and then work there way up though the community if
they are so inclined.
>>
>> 2. There is a real lack of co-ordinated, centrally located and easily discoverable planning amongst the teams, this tends to get scattered
>> across email lists, blueprints and IRC discussions. Try and find a list of tasks that are needing to be completed by each team, you probably
>> wont because there is nowhere central and easy to record these. The closest you will come is the list of bugs that need fixing, if you can even
>> find that.
> I am not in those circles, but I assume this is true. Other teams seem to manage this (and not just in Ubuntu, but everywhere) using various
> ways. I guess that really could work for us as well, as long as we all give things a chance.
Well yes, and its quite different for upstreams, its mostly developers and the odd designers. You don't there have large number of "community"
contributors, that is more a distro thing.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>




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