Feedback Time

[Park Juyeon]

hello team. :)
I have finished to survey for gnome today.
I always thanks to Ubuntu-gnome team. ;)
have a great day.
2015. 6. 27. 오후 6:37에 "Narcis Garcia" <informatica at actiu.net>님이 작성:

> Bart,
> in my case, If I've provided Gnome (p.e.) to 1000 users, in the 99.99%
> cases the OS installation was made by me and not by the final user.
>
> In other cases (1000 more?) I hadn't the opportunity to teach the final
> user about Gnome environment, and I only provided brief printed materials.
>
>
> El 26/06/15 a les 19:48, Bart Schouten ha escrit:
> > If you think that's what an average user does, you have a very skewed
> > way of an average user. The whole idea of Linux is to provide a
> > customization that goes beyond "Oh, do I click on Internet Explorer?"
> > How many people using Gnome fall into this "average user" category you
> > hold? I would say 2% and after they've used the system for a month
> > they're no longer that.
> >
> > You have a very skewed vision or image of real life, unless you want to
> > make Kiosk computers. Anyone who is capable of installing Ubuntu Gnome
> > will know what Firefox is. It doesn't take long to get to know what e.g.
> > Evolution is, since it sports an email icon.
> >
> > The initial period of getting to know these applications is very short
> > compared to the actual time you ought to be using it. If someone cannot
> > install Ubuntu Gnome, you can be expected that they have a person who
> > did install it for them and who can introduce them to these
> > applications. After all, getting to know firefox and knowing its icon is
> > pretty essential to being tutored in using a computer. What if a person
> > uses Gnome for three months and someone asks what browser do you use? I
> > don't know, it's called Web Browser. That means the learning experience
> > of using Firefox is essentially disrupted because its identity is hidden.
> >
> > It makes no sense at all to name something after a category, I repeat.
> >
> > And most people who have used the system for three months and would have
> > experienced two different browsers, would definitely pick a favourite.
> >
> > They do care if they know, and using a computer is all about exploration.
> >
> > I repeat, sorry if I say so, but that "average user" does hardly exist.
> > You could call it "novice user" and novices do not remain that.
> >
> > You should not frustrate a user in learning more. You are treating
> > people like children but also children who are too stupid to learn. The
> > only thing the system is good for is a Kiosk computer (and perhaps quite
> > well).
> >
> > A novice user cannot install a computer. These are people that ask
> > friends for help in Installing Windows. They are too scared to do
> > otherwise.
> >
> > Seriously, you have a skewed image. This target audience does not exist.
> >
> > For example, most people who have used Windows for a few years (and
> > every teen has (almost)) will know what Firefox and Photoshop are. They
> > know Instagram, Facebook, they know many apps for smarthphones, they
> > know Whatsapp, the only program that doesn't use a distinctive name is
> > Messenger. (Facebook Messenger).
> >
> > These are brand names that get acquired very quickly. They are not
> > obstacles. You are blowing up the initial learning period to be a very
> > difficult thing, and it is not.
> >
> > Learning brand names is a natural process and everyone does it
> > everywhere all the time. Your cable company is not called "Cable
> > Company" because it is not distinctive and does not identify.
> >
> > How many people do you think have trouble learning whatever its name is
> > or what companies there are and what they offer? None.
> >
> > But naming it "File Manager" and "Web browser" introduces many
> > obstacles, while the opposite really has no drawbacks and only
> > advantages. It's only in your mind. I'm not sure if you have "asked" any
> > "average user". Typically, anyone  who is involved with Linux is way
> > more advanced than that. Most people I meet do not know what Ubuntu is,
> > a few do, the more student minded. These people would never install it,
> > but may have someone who wants to install it for them.
> >
> > Then, that person would be responsible for introducing the person to the
> > system. I would not recommend a different system to anyone  without
> > personally making sure they are introduced.
> >
> > So all that's left is Kiosk computers, where average or new or unknown
> > users get to use a computer that is workable fast without having a
> > work-in period. In that case it makes sense. Not for a personal install.
> > Not really.
> >
> > Anyway, these are just my thoughts again. I believe I'm pretty straight
> > in this and pretty clear and I believe you are alienated from regular
> > people if you believe any otherwise.
> >
> > Just give it a try and see how good it works. Any regular user can never
> > find the program in e.g. a process explorer or overview, pretty much an
> > essential feature. So the feature is broken.
> >
> > You break all kind of things with this and what is the benefit? It is
> > none. It is in your mind. Nobody really likes it except people who have
> > rationalized it.
> >
> > Sorry, but... It's really clear as daylight. It makes it a worse system
> > by far. The out of the Box Gnome experience is not all that good....
> >
> > It is apparently a new concept that was tried and tested as a deviationg
> > from the standard and the norm and the accustomed and the regular way of
> > doing things in business and in life, and has the deviation really been
> > evaluated? I think not. It is just an idea. Nobody really knows if it
> > works and for whom, because the people who are advocating it are
> > definitely not that category of "average user".
> >
> > So it makes no sense. This target audience.... it is not you yourself,
> > and they don't even exist really. They are different people that are an
> > imaginging. Who knows these average users? That are interested in Gnome?
> > That know about Gnome?
> >
> > I don't know any. I know people who barely know how to open the internet
> > (a browser) and I would not give them Ubuntu Gnome without support, or
> > any form of computer without support really.
> >
> > I would not give my mother and father a computer without my help,
> > essentially.  Those of my age, they can all use computers, none
> > excepted. In the age range of 30-5, there are no "average users". There
> > are only proficient users. So you also only cater to elderly people.
> >
> > At least, anyone who has gone to school and had to use a computer for
> > school knows their way around it.
> >
> > Reall, really skewed.
> >
> > My apologies.
> >
> >
> > Quoting Alfredo Hernández <aldomann.designs at gmail.com>:
> >
> >> I agree with Julien. Our purpose is to give a pure GNOME experience. The
> >> average user doesn't care if they are using Totem or VLC, they want a
> >> Video
> >> Player and they will most probably have only one video player installed.
> >>
> >> On 26 June 2015 at 17:33, Julien Olivier <julo42 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>  Yes, sorry, my explanation lacked an important detail: I reckon the
> >>> GNOME developers wanted to use generic names for first-party apps
> >>> only (and
> >>> thus, for one and only one app for each task). Third party apps are
> >>> still
> >>> displayed using their real name.
> >>>
> >>> I might be wrong though, or GNOME developers might also have changed
> >>> their
> >>> strategy since the last time I checked...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 16:04 +0200, Narcis Garcia a écrit :
> >>>
> >>> I believe there is a middle point for this:
> >>>
> >>> "Gedit text editor"
> >>> "Nautilus file manager"
> >>> "Firefox web browser"
> >>> etc.
> >>>
> >>> If someone names simply "Web browser" to Epiphany, how is named
> >>> Firefox?? In a bad names strategy, user could see this in an
> >>> applications menu:
> >>> Web browser <- This is Firefox (you must know)
> >>> Web browser <- This is Mirori (you must know)
> >>> Web browser <- This is Icecat (you must know)
> >>> ...no sense.
> >>>
> >>> It's very difficult for casual (or new) users this other extreme in a
> >>> bad names strategy:
> >>> Sylpheed <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
> >>> Evolution <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
> >>> Geary <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> El 26/06/15 a les 11:13, Julien Olivier ha escrit:> Hi Bart, list,> >
> >>> the thing with names is that it's better when they actually *mean*>
> >>> something. An experimented user will immediately know that Firefox is
> >>> a> web browser or that Evolution is an email program. But normal
> >>> users will> have no clue about it :) Some apps use names that provide
> >>> clues as to> what the purpose of the app is, like Rhythmbox or Gedit,
> >>> but most don't.> > I think the recent trend among GNOME developers is
> >>> that the app name is> more like an internal code, not aimed at being
> >>> used in the user experience.> > Maybe a good way to fix your problem
> >>> would be to have a "Launch in> terminal" entry in the app's dash
> >>> icon, next to "New Window" and "Add to> favourites", possibly as a
> >>> GNOME Shell extension ?> > Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 10:25 +0200,
> >>> Bart Schouten a écrit :>> Quoting Narcis Garcia
> >>> <informatica at actiu.net <mailto:informatica at actiu.net
> >>> <informatica at actiu.net>>>:>>>> > I agree with Keith Grider in a
> >>> subject: "
> >>> please name all programs in the>> > UI the same as the cli (...) if
> >>>  you want to diagnose the problem, you>> > need to grep all over the
> >>> internet to find out what the program name is>> > to be able to
> >>> launch from the command line to see what errors are occurring">>  >>>
> >>> > This problem is worse with localized UI.>>>> Yes. It  makes   no
> >>> sense to name something "File Manager" instead of  >> "Nautilus"
> >>> when Nautilus is a name you can love and a brand name.  >> Kubuntu
> >>> (KDE) just puts a like subtitle next to the real name in the  >>
> >>> menu to describe it. I don't think "File Manager" (or whatever)
> >>> makes  >> much sense and you cannot love it. Only the most mediocre
> >>> computer  >> users do not know what "file manager" or anything
> >>> with  a name is and  >> some of them don't even know what the  button
> >>> "web" is supposed to do  >> (in a kiosk computer). You can't  really
> >>> cater to them. Those users  >> can't use Linux anyway.  People who
> >>> have to learn how to use a mouse  >> and who cannot make
> >>> double-clicks without moving the mouse too much  >> (it happens all
> >>> too common). I don't think that should be your target  >> audience.
> >>> A proficient computer user that cannot use a mouse and does  >> not
> >>> know what a file manager icon is supposed to do -- they can never
> >>> >> use linux. They couldn't use Windows. You'd only give them a  Mac,
> >>> at  >> best. I feel it is catering to the lowest common
> >>> denominator.>>>> Personally I think Gnome would be at least twice  as
> >>> good if they got  >> rid of those confusing names when there are
> >>> good names for those  >> programs already.>>>> Just my opinion, as
> >>> well.>>>> Bart.>>>> >>> >>> >>> > El 25/06/15 a les 15:44, Keith
> >>> Grider ha escrit:>> >> Hi,>> >>>> >> I have been running Gnome
> >>> desktop under Ubuntu since 11.04. I did not>> >> like Unity and did
> >>> not like the Gnome fallback. Tried Elementary OS for>> >> a while
> >>> and came back to Ubuntu Gnome because they are so slow to>> >>
> >>> release Freya.>> >>>> >> The new Gnome in 15.04 seems snappier and  I
> >>> like it. I could care less>> >> about the cutting edge, latest
> >>> Gnome, I just want it to run. I am in the>> >> process of upgrading
> >>> my computers from 14.04 to 15.04. 2 down and 2 to>> >> go. There  are
> >>> some kernel improvements in 15.04 which help a couple>> >>  issues I
> >>> was having with 14.04 (1 is that network manager is  somewhat>> >>
> >>> broken in 14.04.2 The via_velocity module will not  reconnect to the
> >>> lan>> >> after suspend and another is with wifi on  my laptop.)>>
> >>> >>>> >> Stuff that does not work or does not work  'correctly' in
> >>> 15.04, IMO:>> >>>> >>  1. I can no longer unload a  module at suspend
> >>> time. I know this is a>> >>     kernel problem  and not Gnome, but it
> >>> is a problem for me. I used to>> >>     be  able to do this with
> >>> 13.04, but since 12.04, I can no longer get>>  >>     it to unload
> >>> the aic7xxx module before suspending. No matter  what I>> >>     put
> >>> in the |/etc/pm/config.d/modules, it will not  unload. As soon as>>
> >>> >>     I try to use that module, the kernel  panics and locks up
> >>> the>> >>     computer. It is an old card, but  runs my scanner just
> >>> fine. It used>> >>     to work correctly and  now it only works after
> >>> boot and crashes after>> >>     the first  suspend resume cycle. I
> >>> can do it by hand and can also>> >>      blacklist it so I cna load
> >>> it when I need it, but it should be  able>> >>     to be automated,
> >>> this is a regression.>> >>     |>>  >>  2. ||The Gnome login screen
> >>> needs a suspend time out. As it is,  I have>> >>     my users set
> >>> auto suspend after 30 minutes. It  would be nice if I>> >>     could
> >>> set that for The Gnome login  screen as well via the Gnome UI>>
> >>> >>     somehow. It has been this  way for a while and it is a
> >>> regression, IMO.>> >>  3. The Gnome  login screen does not have a
> >>> suspend option. All I can do>> >>      is shut down or reboot from
> >>> the login screen.>> >>  4. The  openjdk-*-jre install no longer has a
> >>> .desktop file for right>> >>      clicking and launching *.jar files
> >>> in Nautilus, it must be  created>> >>     by hand to run these
> >>> files.>> >>  5. Please,  please, please name all programs in the UI
> >>> the same as the>> >>      cli... Please. It is tough to click and try
> >>> to launch something  in>> >>     the UI, have nothing happen then if
> >>> you want to  diagnose the>> >>     problem, you need to grep all over
> >>> the  internet to find out what the>> >>     program name is to be
> >>> able  to launch from the command line to see>> >>     what errors
> >>> are  occurring. I do not have a specific example right>> >>     now,
> >>> but  could find one if you need. I think one of them is 'files'.>>
> >>> >>      Just call it 'nautilus'.>> >>>> >> Keep up the good work.>>
> >>> >>>>  >> Keith>> >>>> >>>> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:19 PM,
> >>> Ali/amjjawad <amjjawad at gnome.org <mailto:amjjawad at gnome.org
> >>> <amjjawad at gnome.org>>>> >> <mailto:amjjawad at gnome.org
> >>> <amjjawad at gnome.org>>> wrote:>> >>>> >>     Dear everyone,>> >>>>
> >>> >>     Before we start the planning for this cycle (Wily Werewolf -
> >>> 15.04),>> >>     I'd like to run this survey before anything  else:>>
> >>> >>>> >>     https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time/>> >>>>  >>     It
> >>> would be very important for me and everyone else to  understand>>
> >>> >>     what we have done, what we are doing and what  we are suppose
> >>> to do>> >>     in the future. Above all, we do need  to understand
> >>> what *OUR USERS*>> >>     think :)>> >>>> >>     I am  having very
> >>> limited time to spend so if the survey is bad or>> >>      lack some
> >>> questions, etc .. please keep in mind that this is what  my>> >>
> >>> time allowed me to do. I think I did my best and I'd  like to>>
> >>> >>     apologize in advance for any inconvenience.>> >>>>  >>     You
> >>> can *ALWAYS* write to us and send your feedback here, on  this>>
> >>> >>     mailing list:>> >>
> >>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ContactUs>> >>>> >>>> >>
> >>> and/or *FEEL FREE to contact me* :)>> >>>> >>>> >>     The survey
> >>> should *NOT* take more than _*3 minutes*_ from your time.>> >>>> >>
> >>>      *Here is the direct link:*>> >>
> >>> http://goo.gl/forms/sXdsxPIkfZ>> >>>> >>     You can only answer it
> >>>  ONE time so please, make sure to read the>> >>     questions
> >>> carefully ;)>> >>>> >>     Thank you so much!>> >>>> >>     -->> >>
> >>>      Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us.">> >>>>
> >>> >>      Best Regards,>> >>     Ali/amjjawad
> >>> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad>>> >>>> >>
> >>> *http://kibo.computer* - http://torios.net - Ubuntu GNOME>> >>
> >>> <http://ubuntugnome.org/>>> >>>> >>     -->> >>     Ubuntu-GNOME
> >>> mailing list>> >>     Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com
> >>> <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com
> >>> <Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com>>
> >>> <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com
> >>> <Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com>>>> >>     Modify settings or
> >>> unsubscribe at:>> >>
> >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>> >>>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> > -->> > Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list>> >
> >>> Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com <mailto:Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com
> >>>  <Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com>>>> > Modify settings or unsubscribe
> >>> at:   >> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome>>
> >>> >>>>>>>>>> > >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list
> >>> Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com
> >>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> >>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list
> Ubuntu-GNOME at lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-gnome/attachments/20150627/4d556b3f/attachment-0001.html>