Feedback Time
Alfredo Hernández
aldomann.designs at gmail.com
Fri Jun 26 19:24:06 UTC 2015
Woa, calm down dude. How many people do you personally know that are using
Linux? How many people have you installed Linux in their computers? How
many usability tests have you conducted?
Let me be clear, experts all over the world use this kids friendly (as you
call it) naming: Apple, Google, GNOME, etc. Our goal as a system is to
provide as much core GNOME experience, and that means the naming they have
decided. We are not entitled to refute their decision, a decision based on
real UX tests.
The next time try to be more polite, please. This is a place to give
constructive feedback, not a place to be all ranty.
Cheers,
Alfredo
On 26 Jun 2015 7:49 pm, "Bart Schouten" <mailing-list at bart.ahum.nl> wrote:
> If you think that's what an average user does, you have a very skewed way
> of an average user. The whole idea of Linux is to provide a customization
> that goes beyond "Oh, do I click on Internet Explorer?" How many people
> using Gnome fall into this "average user" category you hold? I would say 2%
> and after they've used the system for a month they're no longer that.
>
> You have a very skewed vision or image of real life, unless you want to
> make Kiosk computers. Anyone who is capable of installing Ubuntu Gnome will
> know what Firefox is. It doesn't take long to get to know what e.g.
> Evolution is, since it sports an email icon.
>
> The initial period of getting to know these applications is very short
> compared to the actual time you ought to be using it. If someone cannot
> install Ubuntu Gnome, you can be expected that they have a person who did
> install it for them and who can introduce them to these applications. After
> all, getting to know firefox and knowing its icon is pretty essential to
> being tutored in using a computer. What if a person uses Gnome for three
> months and someone asks what browser do you use? I don't know, it's called
> Web Browser. That means the learning experience of using Firefox is
> essentially disrupted because its identity is hidden.
>
> It makes no sense at all to name something after a category, I repeat.
>
> And most people who have used the system for three months and would have
> experienced two different browsers, would definitely pick a favourite.
>
> They do care if they know, and using a computer is all about exploration.
>
> I repeat, sorry if I say so, but that "average user" does hardly exist.
> You could call it "novice user" and novices do not remain that.
>
> You should not frustrate a user in learning more. You are treating people
> like children but also children who are too stupid to learn. The only thing
> the system is good for is a Kiosk computer (and perhaps quite well).
>
> A novice user cannot install a computer. These are people that ask friends
> for help in Installing Windows. They are too scared to do otherwise.
>
> Seriously, you have a skewed image. This target audience does not exist.
>
> For example, most people who have used Windows for a few years (and every
> teen has (almost)) will know what Firefox and Photoshop are. They know
> Instagram, Facebook, they know many apps for smarthphones, they know
> Whatsapp, the only program that doesn't use a distinctive name is
> Messenger. (Facebook Messenger).
>
> These are brand names that get acquired very quickly. They are not
> obstacles. You are blowing up the initial learning period to be a very
> difficult thing, and it is not.
>
> Learning brand names is a natural process and everyone does it everywhere
> all the time. Your cable company is not called "Cable Company" because it
> is not distinctive and does not identify.
>
> How many people do you think have trouble learning whatever its name is or
> what companies there are and what they offer? None.
>
> But naming it "File Manager" and "Web browser" introduces many obstacles,
> while the opposite really has no drawbacks and only advantages. It's only
> in your mind. I'm not sure if you have "asked" any "average user".
> Typically, anyone who is involved with Linux is way more advanced than
> that. Most people I meet do not know what Ubuntu is, a few do, the more
> student minded. These people would never install it, but may have someone
> who wants to install it for them.
>
> Then, that person would be responsible for introducing the person to the
> system. I would not recommend a different system to anyone without
> personally making sure they are introduced.
>
> So all that's left is Kiosk computers, where average or new or unknown
> users get to use a computer that is workable fast without having a work-in
> period. In that case it makes sense. Not for a personal install. Not really.
>
> Anyway, these are just my thoughts again. I believe I'm pretty straight in
> this and pretty clear and I believe you are alienated from regular people
> if you believe any otherwise.
>
> Just give it a try and see how good it works. Any regular user can never
> find the program in e.g. a process explorer or overview, pretty much an
> essential feature. So the feature is broken.
>
> You break all kind of things with this and what is the benefit? It is
> none. It is in your mind. Nobody really likes it except people who have
> rationalized it.
>
> Sorry, but... It's really clear as daylight. It makes it a worse system by
> far. The out of the Box Gnome experience is not all that good....
>
> It is apparently a new concept that was tried and tested as a deviationg
> from the standard and the norm and the accustomed and the regular way of
> doing things in business and in life, and has the deviation really been
> evaluated? I think not. It is just an idea. Nobody really knows if it works
> and for whom, because the people who are advocating it are definitely not
> that category of "average user".
>
> So it makes no sense. This target audience.... it is not you yourself, and
> they don't even exist really. They are different people that are an
> imaginging. Who knows these average users? That are interested in Gnome?
> That know about Gnome?
>
> I don't know any. I know people who barely know how to open the internet
> (a browser) and I would not give them Ubuntu Gnome without support, or any
> form of computer without support really.
>
> I would not give my mother and father a computer without my help,
> essentially. Those of my age, they can all use computers, none excepted.
> In the age range of 30-5, there are no "average users". There are only
> proficient users. So you also only cater to elderly people.
>
> At least, anyone who has gone to school and had to use a computer for
> school knows their way around it.
>
> Reall, really skewed.
>
> My apologies.
>
>
> Quoting Alfredo Hernández <aldomann.designs at gmail.com>:
>
> I agree with Julien. Our purpose is to give a pure GNOME experience. The
>> average user doesn't care if they are using Totem or VLC, they want a
>> Video
>> Player and they will most probably have only one video player installed.
>>
>> On 26 June 2015 at 17:33, Julien Olivier <julo42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, sorry, my explanation lacked an important detail: I reckon the
>>> GNOME developers wanted to use generic names for first-party apps only
>>> (and
>>> thus, for one and only one app for each task). Third party apps are still
>>> displayed using their real name.
>>>
>>> I might be wrong though, or GNOME developers might also have changed
>>> their
>>> strategy since the last time I checked...
>>>
>>>
>>> Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 16:04 +0200, Narcis Garcia a écrit :
>>>
>>> I believe there is a middle point for this:
>>>
>>> "Gedit text editor"
>>> "Nautilus file manager"
>>> "Firefox web browser"
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> If someone names simply "Web browser" to Epiphany, how is named
>>> Firefox?? In a bad names strategy, user could see this in an
>>> applications menu:
>>> Web browser <- This is Firefox (you must know)
>>> Web browser <- This is Mirori (you must know)
>>> Web browser <- This is Icecat (you must know)
>>> ...no sense.
>>>
>>> It's very difficult for casual (or new) users this other extreme in a
>>> bad names strategy:
>>> Sylpheed <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
>>> Evolution <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
>>> Geary <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
>>>
>>>
>>> El 26/06/15 a les 11:13, Julien Olivier ha escrit:> Hi Bart, list,> >
>>> the thing with names is that it's better when they actually *mean*>
>>> something. An experimented user will immediately know that Firefox is a>
>>> web browser or that Evolution is an email program. But normal users will>
>>> have no clue about it :) Some apps use names that provide clues as to> what
>>> the purpose of the app is, like Rhythmbox or Gedit, but most don't.> > I
>>> think the recent trend among GNOME developers is that the app name is> more
>>> like an internal code, not aimed at being used in the user experience.> >
>>> Maybe a good way to fix your problem would be to have a "Launch in>
>>> terminal" entry in the app's dash icon, next to "New Window" and "Add to>
>>> favourites", possibly as a GNOME Shell extension ?> > Le vendredi 26 juin
>>> 2015 à 10:25 +0200, Bart Schouten a écrit :>> Quoting Narcis Garcia <
>>> informatica at actiu.net <mailto:informatica at actiu.net <
>>> informatica at actiu.net>>>:>>>> > I agree with Keith Grider in a subject:
>>> "
>>> please name all programs in the>> > UI the same as the cli (...) if you
>>> want to diagnose the problem, you>> > need to grep all over the internet
>>> to find out what the program name is>> > to be able to launch from the
>>> command line to see what errors are occurring">> >>> > This problem is
>>> worse with localized UI.>>>> Yes. It makes no sense to name something
>>> "File Manager" instead of >> "Nautilus" when Nautilus is a name you can
>>> love and a brand name. >> Kubuntu (KDE) just puts a like subtitle next to
>>> the real name in the >> menu to describe it. I don't think "File Manager"
>>> (or whatever) makes >> much sense and you cannot love it. Only the most
>>> mediocre computer >> users do not know what "file manager" or anything
>>> with a name is and >> some of them don't even know what the button
>>> "web" is supposed to do >> (in a kiosk computer). You can't really cater
>>> to them. Those users >> can't use Linux anyway. People who have to learn
>>> how to use a mouse >> and who cannot make double-clicks without moving
>>> the mouse too much >> (it happens all too common). I don't think that
>>> should be your target >> audience. A proficient computer user that cannot
>>> use a mouse and does >> not know what a file manager icon is supposed to
>>> do -- they can never >> use linux. They couldn't use Windows. You'd only
>>> give them a Mac, at >> best. I feel it is catering to the lowest common
>>> denominator.>>>> Personally I think Gnome would be at least twice as good
>>> if they got >> rid of those confusing names when there are good names for
>>> those >> programs already.>>>> Just my opinion, as well.>>>> Bart.>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> > El 25/06/15 a les 15:44, Keith Grider ha escrit:>> >> Hi,>>
>>> >>>> >> I have been running Gnome desktop under Ubuntu since 11.04. I did
>>> not>> >> like Unity and did not like the Gnome fallback. Tried Elementary
>>> OS for>> >> a while and came back to Ubuntu Gnome because they are so slow
>>> to>> >> release Freya.>> >>>> >> The new Gnome in 15.04 seems snappier
>>> and I like it. I could care less>> >> about the cutting edge, latest
>>> Gnome, I just want it to run. I am in the>> >> process of upgrading my
>>> computers from 14.04 to 15.04. 2 down and 2 to>> >> go. There are some
>>> kernel improvements in 15.04 which help a couple>> >> issues I was having
>>> with 14.04 (1 is that network manager is somewhat>> >> broken in 14.04.2
>>> The via_velocity module will not reconnect to the lan>> >> after suspend
>>> and another is with wifi on my laptop.)>> >>>> >> Stuff that does not work
>>> or does not work 'correctly' in 15.04, IMO:>> >>>> >> 1. I can no longer
>>> unload a module at suspend time. I know this is a>> >> kernel problem
>>> and not Gnome, but it is a problem for me. I used to>> >> be able to
>>> do this with 13.04, but since 12.04, I can no longer get>> >> it to
>>> unload the aic7xxx module before suspending. No matter what I>> >> put
>>> in the |/etc/pm/config.d/modules, it will not unload. As soon as>> >>
>>> I try to use that module, the kernel panics and locks up the>> >>
>>> computer. It is an old card, but runs my scanner just fine. It used>> >>
>>> to work correctly and now it only works after boot and crashes after>>
>>> >> the first suspend resume cycle. I can do it by hand and can also>>
>>> >> blacklist it so I cna load it when I need it, but it should be
>>> able>> >> to be automated, this is a regression.>> >> |>> >> 2.
>>> ||The Gnome login screen needs a suspend time out. As it is, I have>> >>
>>> my users set auto suspend after 30 minutes. It would be nice if I>> >>
>>> could set that for The Gnome login screen as well via the Gnome UI>>
>>> >> somehow. It has been this way for a while and it is a regression,
>>> IMO.>> >> 3. The Gnome login screen does not have a suspend option. All I
>>> can do>> >> is shut down or reboot from the login screen.>> >> 4.
>>> The openjdk-*-jre install no longer has a .desktop file for right>> >>
>>> clicking and launching *.jar files in Nautilus, it must be created>> >>
>>> by hand to run these files.>> >> 5. Please, please, please name all
>>> programs in the UI the same as the>> >> cli... Please. It is tough to
>>> click and try to launch something in>> >> the UI, have nothing happen
>>> then if you want to diagnose the>> >> problem, you need to grep all
>>> over the internet to find out what the>> >> program name is to be
>>> able to launch from the command line to see>> >> what errors are
>>> occurring. I do not have a specific example right>> >> now, but could
>>> find one if you need. I think one of them is 'files'.>> >> Just call
>>> it 'nautilus'.>> >>>> >> Keep up the good work.>> >>>> >> Keith>> >>>>
>>> >>>> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Ali/amjjawad <
>>> amjjawad at gnome.org <mailto:amjjawad at gnome.org <amjjawad at gnome.org>>>>
>>> >> <mailto:amjjawad at gnome.org <amjjawad at gnome.org>>> wrote:>> >>>> >>
>>> Dear everyone,>> >>>> >> Before we start the planning for this
>>> cycle (Wily Werewolf - 15.04),>> >> I'd like to run this survey before
>>> anything else:>> >>>> >> https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time/>>
>>> >>>> >> It would be very important for me and everyone else to
>>> understand>> >> what we have done, what we are doing and what we are
>>> suppose to do>> >> in the future. Above all, we do need to understand
>>> what *OUR USERS*>> >> think :)>> >>>> >> I am having very limited
>>> time to spend so if the survey is bad or>> >> lack some questions, etc
>>> .. please keep in mind that this is what my>> >> time allowed me to
>>> do. I think I did my best and I'd like to>> >> apologize in advance
>>> for any inconvenience.>> >>>> >> You can *ALWAYS* write to us and send
>>> your feedback here, on this>> >> mailing list:>> >>
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ContactUs>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>> and/or *FEEL FREE to contact me* :)>> >>>> >>>> >> The survey should
>>> *NOT* take more than _*3 minutes*_ from your time.>> >>>> >> *Here is
>>> the direct link:*>> >> http://goo.gl/forms/sXdsxPIkfZ>> >>>> >>
>>> You can only answer it ONE time so please, make sure to read the>> >>
>>> questions carefully ;)>> >>>> >> Thank you so much!>> >>>> >>
>>> -->> >> Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us.">> >>>>
>>> >> Best Regards,>> >> Ali/amjjawad <
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad>>> >>>> >> *http://kibo.computer*
>>> - http://torios.net - Ubuntu GNOME>> >> <http://ubuntugnome.org/>>>
>>> >>>> >> -->> >> Ubuntu-GNOME mailing list>> >>
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>>> unsubscribe at:>> >>
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