Feedback Time
Narcis Garcia
informatica at actiu.net
Sat Jun 27 09:37:23 UTC 2015
Bart,
in my case, If I've provided Gnome (p.e.) to 1000 users, in the 99.99%
cases the OS installation was made by me and not by the final user.
In other cases (1000 more?) I hadn't the opportunity to teach the final
user about Gnome environment, and I only provided brief printed materials.
El 26/06/15 a les 19:48, Bart Schouten ha escrit:
> If you think that's what an average user does, you have a very skewed
> way of an average user. The whole idea of Linux is to provide a
> customization that goes beyond "Oh, do I click on Internet Explorer?"
> How many people using Gnome fall into this "average user" category you
> hold? I would say 2% and after they've used the system for a month
> they're no longer that.
>
> You have a very skewed vision or image of real life, unless you want to
> make Kiosk computers. Anyone who is capable of installing Ubuntu Gnome
> will know what Firefox is. It doesn't take long to get to know what e.g.
> Evolution is, since it sports an email icon.
>
> The initial period of getting to know these applications is very short
> compared to the actual time you ought to be using it. If someone cannot
> install Ubuntu Gnome, you can be expected that they have a person who
> did install it for them and who can introduce them to these
> applications. After all, getting to know firefox and knowing its icon is
> pretty essential to being tutored in using a computer. What if a person
> uses Gnome for three months and someone asks what browser do you use? I
> don't know, it's called Web Browser. That means the learning experience
> of using Firefox is essentially disrupted because its identity is hidden.
>
> It makes no sense at all to name something after a category, I repeat.
>
> And most people who have used the system for three months and would have
> experienced two different browsers, would definitely pick a favourite.
>
> They do care if they know, and using a computer is all about exploration.
>
> I repeat, sorry if I say so, but that "average user" does hardly exist.
> You could call it "novice user" and novices do not remain that.
>
> You should not frustrate a user in learning more. You are treating
> people like children but also children who are too stupid to learn. The
> only thing the system is good for is a Kiosk computer (and perhaps quite
> well).
>
> A novice user cannot install a computer. These are people that ask
> friends for help in Installing Windows. They are too scared to do
> otherwise.
>
> Seriously, you have a skewed image. This target audience does not exist.
>
> For example, most people who have used Windows for a few years (and
> every teen has (almost)) will know what Firefox and Photoshop are. They
> know Instagram, Facebook, they know many apps for smarthphones, they
> know Whatsapp, the only program that doesn't use a distinctive name is
> Messenger. (Facebook Messenger).
>
> These are brand names that get acquired very quickly. They are not
> obstacles. You are blowing up the initial learning period to be a very
> difficult thing, and it is not.
>
> Learning brand names is a natural process and everyone does it
> everywhere all the time. Your cable company is not called "Cable
> Company" because it is not distinctive and does not identify.
>
> How many people do you think have trouble learning whatever its name is
> or what companies there are and what they offer? None.
>
> But naming it "File Manager" and "Web browser" introduces many
> obstacles, while the opposite really has no drawbacks and only
> advantages. It's only in your mind. I'm not sure if you have "asked" any
> "average user". Typically, anyone who is involved with Linux is way
> more advanced than that. Most people I meet do not know what Ubuntu is,
> a few do, the more student minded. These people would never install it,
> but may have someone who wants to install it for them.
>
> Then, that person would be responsible for introducing the person to the
> system. I would not recommend a different system to anyone without
> personally making sure they are introduced.
>
> So all that's left is Kiosk computers, where average or new or unknown
> users get to use a computer that is workable fast without having a
> work-in period. In that case it makes sense. Not for a personal install.
> Not really.
>
> Anyway, these are just my thoughts again. I believe I'm pretty straight
> in this and pretty clear and I believe you are alienated from regular
> people if you believe any otherwise.
>
> Just give it a try and see how good it works. Any regular user can never
> find the program in e.g. a process explorer or overview, pretty much an
> essential feature. So the feature is broken.
>
> You break all kind of things with this and what is the benefit? It is
> none. It is in your mind. Nobody really likes it except people who have
> rationalized it.
>
> Sorry, but... It's really clear as daylight. It makes it a worse system
> by far. The out of the Box Gnome experience is not all that good....
>
> It is apparently a new concept that was tried and tested as a deviationg
> from the standard and the norm and the accustomed and the regular way of
> doing things in business and in life, and has the deviation really been
> evaluated? I think not. It is just an idea. Nobody really knows if it
> works and for whom, because the people who are advocating it are
> definitely not that category of "average user".
>
> So it makes no sense. This target audience.... it is not you yourself,
> and they don't even exist really. They are different people that are an
> imaginging. Who knows these average users? That are interested in Gnome?
> That know about Gnome?
>
> I don't know any. I know people who barely know how to open the internet
> (a browser) and I would not give them Ubuntu Gnome without support, or
> any form of computer without support really.
>
> I would not give my mother and father a computer without my help,
> essentially. Those of my age, they can all use computers, none
> excepted. In the age range of 30-5, there are no "average users". There
> are only proficient users. So you also only cater to elderly people.
>
> At least, anyone who has gone to school and had to use a computer for
> school knows their way around it.
>
> Reall, really skewed.
>
> My apologies.
>
>
> Quoting Alfredo Hernández <aldomann.designs at gmail.com>:
>
>> I agree with Julien. Our purpose is to give a pure GNOME experience. The
>> average user doesn't care if they are using Totem or VLC, they want a
>> Video
>> Player and they will most probably have only one video player installed.
>>
>> On 26 June 2015 at 17:33, Julien Olivier <julo42 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, sorry, my explanation lacked an important detail: I reckon the
>>> GNOME developers wanted to use generic names for first-party apps
>>> only (and
>>> thus, for one and only one app for each task). Third party apps are
>>> still
>>> displayed using their real name.
>>>
>>> I might be wrong though, or GNOME developers might also have changed
>>> their
>>> strategy since the last time I checked...
>>>
>>>
>>> Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 16:04 +0200, Narcis Garcia a écrit :
>>>
>>> I believe there is a middle point for this:
>>>
>>> "Gedit text editor"
>>> "Nautilus file manager"
>>> "Firefox web browser"
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> If someone names simply "Web browser" to Epiphany, how is named
>>> Firefox?? In a bad names strategy, user could see this in an
>>> applications menu:
>>> Web browser <- This is Firefox (you must know)
>>> Web browser <- This is Mirori (you must know)
>>> Web browser <- This is Icecat (you must know)
>>> ...no sense.
>>>
>>> It's very difficult for casual (or new) users this other extreme in a
>>> bad names strategy:
>>> Sylpheed <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
>>> Evolution <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
>>> Geary <- This is an e-mail software (you must know)
>>>
>>>
>>> El 26/06/15 a les 11:13, Julien Olivier ha escrit:> Hi Bart, list,> >
>>> the thing with names is that it's better when they actually *mean*>
>>> something. An experimented user will immediately know that Firefox is
>>> a> web browser or that Evolution is an email program. But normal
>>> users will> have no clue about it :) Some apps use names that provide
>>> clues as to> what the purpose of the app is, like Rhythmbox or Gedit,
>>> but most don't.> > I think the recent trend among GNOME developers is
>>> that the app name is> more like an internal code, not aimed at being
>>> used in the user experience.> > Maybe a good way to fix your problem
>>> would be to have a "Launch in> terminal" entry in the app's dash
>>> icon, next to "New Window" and "Add to> favourites", possibly as a
>>> GNOME Shell extension ?> > Le vendredi 26 juin 2015 à 10:25 +0200,
>>> Bart Schouten a écrit :>> Quoting Narcis Garcia
>>> <informatica at actiu.net <mailto:informatica at actiu.net
>>> <informatica at actiu.net>>>:>>>> > I agree with Keith Grider in a
>>> subject: "
>>> please name all programs in the>> > UI the same as the cli (...) if
>>> you want to diagnose the problem, you>> > need to grep all over the
>>> internet to find out what the program name is>> > to be able to
>>> launch from the command line to see what errors are occurring">> >>>
>>> > This problem is worse with localized UI.>>>> Yes. It makes no
>>> sense to name something "File Manager" instead of >> "Nautilus"
>>> when Nautilus is a name you can love and a brand name. >> Kubuntu
>>> (KDE) just puts a like subtitle next to the real name in the >>
>>> menu to describe it. I don't think "File Manager" (or whatever)
>>> makes >> much sense and you cannot love it. Only the most mediocre
>>> computer >> users do not know what "file manager" or anything
>>> with a name is and >> some of them don't even know what the button
>>> "web" is supposed to do >> (in a kiosk computer). You can't really
>>> cater to them. Those users >> can't use Linux anyway. People who
>>> have to learn how to use a mouse >> and who cannot make
>>> double-clicks without moving the mouse too much >> (it happens all
>>> too common). I don't think that should be your target >> audience.
>>> A proficient computer user that cannot use a mouse and does >> not
>>> know what a file manager icon is supposed to do -- they can never
>>> >> use linux. They couldn't use Windows. You'd only give them a Mac,
>>> at >> best. I feel it is catering to the lowest common
>>> denominator.>>>> Personally I think Gnome would be at least twice as
>>> good if they got >> rid of those confusing names when there are
>>> good names for those >> programs already.>>>> Just my opinion, as
>>> well.>>>> Bart.>>>> >>> >>> >>> > El 25/06/15 a les 15:44, Keith
>>> Grider ha escrit:>> >> Hi,>> >>>> >> I have been running Gnome
>>> desktop under Ubuntu since 11.04. I did not>> >> like Unity and did
>>> not like the Gnome fallback. Tried Elementary OS for>> >> a while
>>> and came back to Ubuntu Gnome because they are so slow to>> >>
>>> release Freya.>> >>>> >> The new Gnome in 15.04 seems snappier and I
>>> like it. I could care less>> >> about the cutting edge, latest
>>> Gnome, I just want it to run. I am in the>> >> process of upgrading
>>> my computers from 14.04 to 15.04. 2 down and 2 to>> >> go. There are
>>> some kernel improvements in 15.04 which help a couple>> >> issues I
>>> was having with 14.04 (1 is that network manager is somewhat>> >>
>>> broken in 14.04.2 The via_velocity module will not reconnect to the
>>> lan>> >> after suspend and another is with wifi on my laptop.)>>
>>> >>>> >> Stuff that does not work or does not work 'correctly' in
>>> 15.04, IMO:>> >>>> >> 1. I can no longer unload a module at suspend
>>> time. I know this is a>> >> kernel problem and not Gnome, but it
>>> is a problem for me. I used to>> >> be able to do this with
>>> 13.04, but since 12.04, I can no longer get>> >> it to unload
>>> the aic7xxx module before suspending. No matter what I>> >> put
>>> in the |/etc/pm/config.d/modules, it will not unload. As soon as>>
>>> >> I try to use that module, the kernel panics and locks up
>>> the>> >> computer. It is an old card, but runs my scanner just
>>> fine. It used>> >> to work correctly and now it only works after
>>> boot and crashes after>> >> the first suspend resume cycle. I
>>> can do it by hand and can also>> >> blacklist it so I cna load
>>> it when I need it, but it should be able>> >> to be automated,
>>> this is a regression.>> >> |>> >> 2. ||The Gnome login screen
>>> needs a suspend time out. As it is, I have>> >> my users set
>>> auto suspend after 30 minutes. It would be nice if I>> >> could
>>> set that for The Gnome login screen as well via the Gnome UI>>
>>> >> somehow. It has been this way for a while and it is a
>>> regression, IMO.>> >> 3. The Gnome login screen does not have a
>>> suspend option. All I can do>> >> is shut down or reboot from
>>> the login screen.>> >> 4. The openjdk-*-jre install no longer has a
>>> .desktop file for right>> >> clicking and launching *.jar files
>>> in Nautilus, it must be created>> >> by hand to run these
>>> files.>> >> 5. Please, please, please name all programs in the UI
>>> the same as the>> >> cli... Please. It is tough to click and try
>>> to launch something in>> >> the UI, have nothing happen then if
>>> you want to diagnose the>> >> problem, you need to grep all over
>>> the internet to find out what the>> >> program name is to be
>>> able to launch from the command line to see>> >> what errors
>>> are occurring. I do not have a specific example right>> >> now,
>>> but could find one if you need. I think one of them is 'files'.>>
>>> >> Just call it 'nautilus'.>> >>>> >> Keep up the good work.>>
>>> >>>> >> Keith>> >>>> >>>> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 10:19 PM,
>>> Ali/amjjawad <amjjawad at gnome.org <mailto:amjjawad at gnome.org
>>> <amjjawad at gnome.org>>>> >> <mailto:amjjawad at gnome.org
>>> <amjjawad at gnome.org>>> wrote:>> >>>> >> Dear everyone,>> >>>>
>>> >> Before we start the planning for this cycle (Wily Werewolf -
>>> 15.04),>> >> I'd like to run this survey before anything else:>>
>>> >>>> >> https://ubuntugnome.org/feedback-time/>> >>>> >> It
>>> would be very important for me and everyone else to understand>>
>>> >> what we have done, what we are doing and what we are suppose
>>> to do>> >> in the future. Above all, we do need to understand
>>> what *OUR USERS*>> >> think :)>> >>>> >> I am having very
>>> limited time to spend so if the survey is bad or>> >> lack some
>>> questions, etc .. please keep in mind that this is what my>> >>
>>> time allowed me to do. I think I did my best and I'd like to>>
>>> >> apologize in advance for any inconvenience.>> >>>> >> You
>>> can *ALWAYS* write to us and send your feedback here, on this>>
>>> >> mailing list:>> >>
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ContactUs>> >>>> >>>> >>
>>> and/or *FEEL FREE to contact me* :)>> >>>> >>>> >> The survey
>>> should *NOT* take more than _*3 minutes*_ from your time.>> >>>> >>
>>> *Here is the direct link:*>> >>
>>> http://goo.gl/forms/sXdsxPIkfZ>> >>>> >> You can only answer it
>>> ONE time so please, make sure to read the>> >> questions
>>> carefully ;)>> >>>> >> Thank you so much!>> >>>> >> -->> >>
>>> Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us.">> >>>>
>>> >> Best Regards,>> >> Ali/amjjawad
>>> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad>>> >>>> >>
>>> *http://kibo.computer* - http://torios.net - Ubuntu GNOME>> >>
>>> <http://ubuntugnome.org/>>> >>>> >> -->> >> Ubuntu-GNOME
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