Call for a meeting (IRC/Hangout)

[Tim]

Bart, do you really have nothing better than to send out blubber essays to our email lists? I called you out on a personal attack, nothing
more.. I'll add a few more comments below, but do consider any project needs leaders, decisions need to be made, and not every single suggestion
can be implemented.

On 02/08/15 22:40, Xen wrote:
> Quoting Paul Smith <paul at mad-scientist.net>:
>
>> On Sat, 2015-08-01 at 14:52 +0100, Charlie Moss wrote:
>>> I simply suggest Slack is a better system that IRC.
>>
>> That may be, however luckily we don't need to argue about it: it's
>> simply a non-starter to use a closed-source/non-free (free as in
>> freedom, not price) product as the primary communications medium for an
>> open source platform like GNOME, no matter how much better it is.
>
> I think you are right, if my opinion is worth anything. It is not
> about freedom as much as it is also about power, control. A community
> (humanity) thing is in control of the community (humanity). It means
> you have an ability to direct its course, and it can not just
> disappear on you. So with the power and the control comes
> independence. Open source is mostly also about independence.
>
> I for one detest having to use Adobe tools. I think GIMP is still a
> very bad product from a user interface perspective -- well, perhaps
> you know me a little by now. I once placed video's on Instagram and I
> could only accomplish it using some Adobe Media Encoder or the like. I
> detested it. It was for one an illegal version I used, and even If I
> paid for it, it still wouldn't register as being "mine", since they
> only offer "cloud services" now -- you pay for rent for the software.
> This whole cloud and software-as-a-service move to me is a loss of
> control, of power, of ownership, of dependability. So here I am: I am
> able to do fun social media stuff but at the cost of not knowing
> exactly how it is done, why it works, and with the thought of being in
> an illegal or unlawful position since I "steal" the software.
>
> And if they ever ripped it away from me, I'd be without. Something
> that can never happen (hopefully, although we see issues like
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice, which is like a slap in the face of open
> source) with free, or community/humanity controlled projects like Open
> Source usually is.
>
> Still, I would use Slack. I would use Slack to develop an alternative
> to Slack :P :P.
>
>> I do think people have overreacted to this suggestion, and been
>> unnecessarily rude.  I see no justification for accusations of trolling,
>> etc.  This kind of reaction seems to happen more often than I'd expect
>> for a list like this.
>
> I have been called a troll many times and I believe I was just called
> one a moment a go on this list.
>
> Troll-calling happens everywhere on the internet and it is usually
> meaningless and useless. The one who is called troll is usually not
> trolling at all. In the sense of consciously and willfully being a
> bastard. I always think the ones who call "troll" are the ones who
> troll themselves, or have done so in the past. The whole idea of
> trolling is that people don't notice it and "bite" what you offer
> them. From this springs a reaction to quickly identify any troll and
> thereby defuse it/him. But it usually hits the wrong board (slaat the
> plank mis).
>
>
>> Perhaps everyone could just take a step back from their keyboard and
>> wait a few hours before firing off accusatory messages.  I often write
>> strident emails, because it makes me feel better to express myself...
>> but then I delete them without sending them and either don't reply at
>> all if I ended up having nothing constructive to add, or else send
>> something simple and concrete.  Nothing is lost by waiting until
>> tomorrow to send that email, and no one ever wins the Internet.  IMHO
>> this list would be more pleasant if people were more willing to give
>> each other the benefit of the doubt.
>
> IMO there should also some allowance for being strident. We are like
> animals who never express their gripes. So when they do get triggered,
> they often get out nasty, particularly from the ones who feel
> threatened.
>
> There is this sort of slick and meaningless attitude on the web and
> elsewhere in real life that to be "raw" is to be uncivilized and we
> should always be polite and all that stuff. But in the name of decency
> and civilized manners, many uncivilized and indecent things are
> portrayed. You can perfectly insult a person with subtle means. You
> can turn the tide against him without ever being rash. You can hurt
> and damage people while being "below the radar". You can nullify
> progress, stifle disagreement, object to demands for clarity, and all
> of that stuff.
The whole point of the code of conduct is to avoid this stuff, I can assure you no one our teams has any intentions of doing that.
>
> In recent times there was the disagreement and I believe still is
> between the Kubuntu Council and the Ubuntu Council. From my
> perspective, their disagreement was framed by the UCC as being all
> about morals, while it was really about politics. Conceptual and
> factual (intellectual, meaningful) disagreement was posed as violating
> the Code of Conduct. This happens all the time everywhere.
Don't comment on things you don't have the facts for, it goes a bit deeper than than the final shit-fall that was published publically, I'm not
going to comment on that though
>
> One of the rules is "you can disagree, but do so in a polite manner".
> However, the effect of that is that if someone is not happy with your
> disagreement, they can frame it as being impolite, and hence you are
> in violation of human decency norms. Then, what is actually a real
> meaningful disagreement about content matter, is being stifled in the
> name (supposedly) of morals but it is actually not hard to see, if I
> am wishing to be so bold (and daring) -- that there are political or
> business-wise motives behind it.
>
> I will keep it short from here. I encounter violent opposition from
> (even, open source) moderators and people in power all the time. Many
> people in positions of power, such as forum moderators, have ulterior
> motives, they have interests in mind, that are not expressed, are not
> supposed to be spoken-out, or known. Disagreements in content matter
> are framed as you being in violation of human norms. Factual
> disagreement is always framed as moral indecency by those who do not
> wish to hear your opinions, or see them expressed in public where it
> can hurt their interests.
You are completely missing the point here, we want to hear your ideas, and incorporate what we can, but at the end of the day if we did
everything that everyone ever asked we would just end up with a cluster fuck of a project. It has to be about pleasing the majority and not just
every single user. You need to respect that and not start attacking our team members etc...

It is kind of amazing how some open source users have a false sense of entitlement, like they can demand the direction of the project, that
mostly have never even contributed to said project.


>
> Sometimes those interests are nothing more than their own power
> position (disagreeing with a moderator as to his own behaviour or
> conduct) -- on many forums disagreeing with a moderator about anything
> is a violation in itself. They are absolute dictators, in the literal
> sense of the word.
>
> People who work for open source also often or always have certain
> interests. The main interest is not being wrong ;-).
>
> Open source is an ideology. With fervent adherents. With being
> ingrained by a certain mode of doing things due to long experience (in
> that mode of doing things).
>
> I once learned about a novice cook who was trained by his superior to
> do a certain thing in a certain way. I believe it was about making a
> roux. The process that the teacher taught was very arduous and risked
> burning the thing. The student quickly thought of a better way to do
> it. He suggested it to his superior. He was burned for it. The teacher
> was not going to hear from a novice on how to do things. In anime
> (manga) this would be expressed by a muscle in the forehead tensing ;-).
>
> Often if you mention anything "negative" about Linux or the open
> source methodology or whatever, you get quickly attacked.
Again no, we have a very friendly team here, no one would attack you, but for the fact you came across way to hard, and wouldn't give up, when
we said that isnt possible. That is not how you contribute to open source, start small, build up trust and respect and then you can move onto
the bigger ideas!

>
> In anime that student would be running for his life ;-).
>
> Regards, Bart.
>
>
>