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    On 7/4/2011 9:45 AM, Processing Qbits wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAAwtDu4ikVFsSAdcPDiY6RDLcxxSxMABHm1D38xksH=4KZCBTA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">I agree with what you say, but you didn't argue
        about my approach, you debated another point which is very
        interesting to me too.<br>
        <br>
        Who knows if the OpenSource really doesn't have backdoors? If
        you want to take the risk, you can just depend on whoever checks
        the source code....if you don't want to take the risk, you could
        check it...moreover, Who knows if the OS compiled on your
        machine is the same? Again, that's another choice to make, do I
        compile it? Do I trust whoever did?<br>
        <br>
        Currently, in my stage, I'm still developing/reading the source
        code of a famous microkernel...Minix....which should take me to
        a tougher kernel, perhaps Linux...or another Microkernel....but
        until then, I have no choice....unless perhaps to compile the
        ubuntu source code....which seems rather pointless because I
        don't know what I've compiled....That's my personal story<br>
        <br>
        The original debate's reply with an added challenge....Even if
        we checked and compiled every single OpenSource program on our
        PC's and Cellphones, we would still have ClosedSource software
        to deal with....not to mention the hardware....even if you
        tamper with the hardware, which is not possible in all
        cases....there might be a misleading chip that you do not know
        much about, if you remove it, it would disable the
        cellphone...what would you do then?<br>
        <br>
        All these questions and challenges lead us to one answer.....Do
        What You Can! If you can do something to protect yourself,
        anything, do it....taking the risk isn't a good option, it
        shouldn't be an option in the first place, but let's just say
        it's not a good option.<br>
        <br>
        Security theoretically doesn't exist in a pure form, as a
        challenge, people say that there is doesn't exist a 100% secure
        system....though things like OTP (which are very old but still
        used in secret agencies) (I know that because I've read an
        article yesterday and had a debate over it, I'm not a security
        expert)...challenge that very sentence, but let's just say
        "There isn't a 100% secure system"...<br>
        <br>
        Ok, we accepted that....but does that mean, since everything can
        be hacked, that we don't need security? What do we do?...the
        answer is "Do What You Can!"<br>
        <br>
        So allow me to collectively answer your email with that
        sentence....no need to kill yourself over security and in the
        end there are ways to still bypass your methods, but "Do What
        You Can!"<br>
        <br>
        Google's power isn't ok for me, I prefer distributing parts of
        my e-life around so that no one has it all....there are ways for
        people to go around it, but "I'm Doing What I Can!"...at least
        concerning the google issue<br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Amahdy
          AbdElAziz <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:amahdy7@gmail.com">amahdy7@gmail.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
            0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
            padding-left: 1ex;">
            <div dir="ltr"><font color="#000066"><font size="2"><font
                    face="courier new,monospace">In fact, and you know
                    that, Android and Simbian are OpenSource, and you
                    can have full control on your small computer (the
                    smart phone) if you are using any of those OS's. But
                    following the "mo2mra" theory, one of the phone
                    manufactures decided to put an extra tracking/spying
                    piece of code (or hardware), you can never tell, and
                    you have to relay on the QC (FCC, FDA, ...etc).<br>
                    <br>
                    The men responsible of pen tracing the Linux code,
                    may get paid (following the mo2mra theory also), to
                    let a piece of spying code be installed on all of
                    our machines. (Anybody can pen trace, but nobody
                    does ... and nobody is able to do that for the ISO
                    that you download from Ubuntu or Fedora for example,
                    it's already compiled and closed ,,, only few who
                    get a kernel source, compile it, and compile on top
                    of it all what they need, but they can never read
                    all the source code of everything to make sure that
                    there isn't a spy code somewhere). Did you read <a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=129236621626462&w=2"
                      target="_blank">this</a> before? OpenBSD contained
                    a backdoor "in the opensource implementation of
                    IPSec" for TEN years.<br>
                    <br>
                    I'll remind you what I said before, Google's power
                    is ok for me as far as it's not the only power and
                    there is good potential and competitive
                    alternatives.<br>
                    <br>
                    So let's imagine this situation, (who knows may it
                    will happen one day =)), you are the CEO of Google
                    and you want to please your concepts, so what would
                    you change in Google's strategies? putting in mind
                    that you have the responsibility of:<br>
                    (1) Getting a good revenue for the company to
                    survive.<br>
                    (2) Getting a good impact from the company to grow
                    (not disappear like MySpace for example).<br>
                    <br>
                    <br clear="all">
                  </font></font></font>
              <div class="im">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: courier
                    new,monospace;"><br>
                  </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);
                    font-family: courier new,monospace;"><span
                      style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">-- Amahdy AbdElAziz</span><br
                      style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(0, 0,
                      0);" href="http://www.amahdy.net" target="_blank">http://www.amahdy.net</a><br
                      style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102); font-family: courier
                      new,monospace;">
                  </span></div>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div class="h5">
                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 05:29,
                    Processing Qbits <span dir="ltr"><<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:processingqbits@gmail.com"
                        target="_blank">processingqbits@gmail.com</a>></span>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt
                      0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,
                      204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
                      <div dir="ltr">I believe businessmen usually do
                        have more than one cellphone (though they have
                        it for a different reason and that reason is
                        probably fading with cellphones having the
                        capability to use more than one chip) but then
                        again, a cellphone is more like a computer<br>
                        Why do I choose Linux over Windows? It gives me
                        more control over my computer....anything that
                        goes wrong, anything that I wish to change...I
                        am able to<br>
                        So if I have similar control over my cellphone,
                        I believe it would be like my computer...<br>
                        <br>
                        As much as I respect google, I fear that it is
                        gaining too much power, but I guess I have to
                        respect other people's opinions too...while your
                        approach is "if you don't want your secret to be
                        out there, don't put it there"....my approach
                        would be "if you don't want one company to hold
                        all your secrets, give a piece to each so that
                        none has it all"<br>
                        <br>
                        Your approach: Security by Obscurity<br>
                        My approach is similar to anonymous emails
                        through 2 or more remailers....the first will
                        have your real email but your encrypted
                        message....the last will have your real message
                        and the person it is being sent to but not your
                        own email<br>
                        <br>
                        So I'll just agree to disagree!<br>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at
                          3:25 AM, Amahdy AbdElAziz <span dir="ltr"><<a
                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="mailto:amahdy7@gmail.com"
                              target="_blank">amahdy7@gmail.com</a>></span>
                          wrote:<br>
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
                            0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
                            rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
                            <div dir="ltr"><font color="#000066"><font
                                  size="2"><font face="courier
                                    new,monospace">+Islam: Yes I see
                                    your point, I mean the mobile that
                                    you mentioned, usually contains very
                                    sensitive data maybe more than the
                                    whole web (it contains phone numbers
                                    of family, friends, SMS, ..etc) and
                                    the more advanced is the phone, the
                                    more information it has, (like
                                    emails, businesses, calendar, memo,
                                    ... NFC? ... location, pictures,
                                    ...etc)<br>
                                    Ok so Google is a bad company, I'm
                                    not going to use Android, I'm going
                                    to use what? Simbian? Windows7? iOS?
                                    RIM? ...etc? it's all the same, the
                                    individual IMO has to choose a
                                    company and relay on it (give it
                                    some trust) [[of course to some
                                    extend, I'm saying being cautious
                                    from the beginning]]. IMO also, I
                                    won't get Android for family usage,
                                    iOS for business, Simbian for
                                    friends ...etc, no I'll choose one
                                    only company at my own risk... or
                                    else everybody should not use
                                    technology because it's risky.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    One more interesting example of what
                                    Google does, is the monthly email
                                    they send to me about "Your Latitude
                                    Service is ON, be careful!" it's
                                    like asking "So,, are you going to
                                    turn off the latitude account?" my
                                    answer is always NO keep it ON, I'll
                                    never go near "El Haram Street" so
                                    I'm ok with that =))<br clear="all">
                                  </font></font></font>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div dir="ltr"><span style="color:
                                      rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: courier
                                      new,monospace;"><br>
                                    </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0,
                                      102); font-family: courier
                                      new,monospace;"><span
                                        style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">--
                                        Amahdy AbdElAziz</span><br
                                        style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
                                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"
                                        href="http://www.amahdy.net"
                                        target="_blank">http://www.amahdy.net</a><br
                                        style="color: rgb(0, 0, 102);
                                        font-family: courier
                                        new,monospace;">
                                    </span></div>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  <div class="gmail_quote">2011/7/2
                                    Islam Hassan <span dir="ltr"><<a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:eng.islam_hassan@hotmail.com"
                                        target="_blank">eng.islam_hassan@hotmail.com</a>></span><br>
                                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                      style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
                                      border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,
                                      204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
                                      <div>
                                        <div dir="ltr">
                                          @Amahdy: I'm not saying that
                                          they're doing that or they're
                                          gonna do that, I'm just, as I
                                          said, imagining what they can
                                          do with it and no one can say
                                          they can't. In my opinion, why
                                          should any one take the risk,
                                          as developers or engineers, we
                                          always consider the worst
                                          case.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          <div>
                                            <hr>From: <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:amahdy7@gmail.com"
                                              target="_blank">amahdy7@gmail.com</a><br>
                                            Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011
                                            05:57:52 +0300<br>
                                            Subject: Re: Online Meeting<br>
                                            To: <a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:ubuntu-eg@lists.ubuntu.com"
                                              target="_blank">ubuntu-eg@lists.ubuntu.com</a><br>
                                            <br>
                                            <div dir="ltr"><font
                                                color="#000066"><font
                                                  size="2"><font
                                                    face="courier
                                                    new,monospace">+Islam:
                                                    I believe NOT in the
                                                    "mo2amra" theory :D,
                                                    if I'm one of
                                                    America's enemy then
                                                    my e-life doesn't
                                                    add for them
                                                    anything. Yes Google
                                                    may decide to spy on
                                                    me, but who may not?
                                                    I don't have the
                                                    capability to
                                                    fabricate my own
                                                    cell phone yet so I
                                                    have to relay on
                                                    some companies to do
                                                    that for me ... :))<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    One of the
                                                    interesting things
                                                    made by G+ (yes -so
                                                    far- they listen and
                                                    they care up to a
                                                    very high limit):<br>
                                                    <i><br>
                                                    </i></font></font></font>
                                              <blockquote
                                                style="padding-left:
                                                1ex;">
                                                <font color="#000066"><font
                                                    size="2"><font
                                                      face="courier
                                                      new,monospace"><i>If

                                                        you're sharing a
                                                        post with a
                                                        small circle of
                                                        people, you can
                                                        prevent
                                                        resharing. Click
                                                        the arrow at the
                                                        top-right of the
                                                        post and choose
                                                        "Disable
                                                        reshare."</i></font></font></font><br>
                                              </blockquote>
                                              <font color="#000066"><font
                                                  size="2"><font
                                                    face="courier
                                                    new,monospace"><br>
                                                    Will solve the "Send
                                                    something private to
                                                    someone, and he
                                                    FWD's it".<br>
                                                    This is not an
                                                    ultimate solution
                                                    BTW, he still can
                                                    copy the content and
                                                    post it again...<br>
                                                  </font></font></font>
                                              <div dir="ltr"><span
                                                  style="color: rgb(0,
                                                  0, 0); font-family:
                                                  courier
                                                  new,monospace;"><br>
                                                </span><span
                                                  style="color: rgb(0,
                                                  0, 102); font-family:
                                                  courier
                                                  new,monospace;"><span
                                                    style="color: rgb(0,
                                                    0, 0);">-- Amahdy
                                                    AbdElAziz</span><br
                                                    style="color: rgb(0,
                                                    0, 0);">
                                                  <a
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                    style="color: rgb(0,
                                                    0, 0);"
                                                    href="http://www.amahdy.net"
                                                    target="_blank">http://www.amahdy.net</a><br
                                                    style="color: rgb(0,
                                                    0, 102);
                                                    font-family: courier
                                                    new,monospace;">
                                                </span></div>
                                              <br>
                                              <br>
                                              <br>
                                              <div>2011/7/2 Islam Hassan
                                                <span dir="ltr"><<a
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eng.islam_hassan@hotmail.com" target="_blank">eng.islam_hassan@hotmail.com</a>></span><br>
                                                <blockquote
                                                  style="padding-left:
                                                  1ex;">
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div dir="ltr">
                                                      @Amahdy:
                                                      <div>* You say you
                                                        don't mind if
                                                        any body else
                                                        knows what
                                                        you're doing,
                                                         that doesn't
                                                        mean every on
                                                        feels the same.</div>
                                                      <div>* Google CAN
                                                        know what's
                                                        going on in your
                                                        house and
                                                        between you and
                                                        your friends.
                                                        How? Google
                                                        Android @ Home
                                                        and Google open
                                                        accessories CAN
                                                        CONTROL what
                                                        happens in your
                                                        home.</div>
                                                      <div>* Imagine
                                                        that google or
                                                        the american
                                                        government for
                                                        example has an
                                                        enemy. they can
                                                        track his
                                                        location and
                                                        even kill him
                                                        and make it look
                                                        like an
                                                        accident. and by
                                                        enemy I mean any
                                                        one who'd be a
                                                        pain in the
                                                        throat like some
                                                        activist or
                                                        something like
                                                        that ( I'm just
                                                        going as far as
                                                        I can imagine).
                                                        let's say the
                                                        american
                                                        government
                                                        decide to keep
                                                        track of all
                                                        arabs or muslims
                                                        inside the US
                                                        for security
                                                        purposes or
                                                        something. they
                                                        can listen to
                                                        what you do by
                                                        activating the
                                                        microphone in
                                                        your android
                                                        phone or any
                                                        thing like that.
                                                        use your
                                                        imagination, as
                                                        I said, when I
                                                        watched google
                                                        IO day 1 key
                                                        note, suddenly,
                                                        I robot's VIKI
                                                        jumped into my
                                                        mind.</div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <br>
                                                  --<br>
                                                  Ubuntu-eg mailing list<br>
                                                  <a
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
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    The way I see it, open source mentality was never about making
    absolutely perfect secure software. (that's an impossibility
    actually)<br>
    It was rather a way to share code and build things as a community by
    helping each other and building upon each other's knowledge and
    experience. Nothing more and nothing less.<br>
    Most open source software is driven by the desire to build something
    better than what's available for a specific task, or just to have
    fun :)<br>
    <br>
    [warning] rant about closed source thinking follows...<br>
    But why did the open source mentality even exist and become a thing?
    because there is the opposite.....<br>
    Everytime I see a developer who thinks that what he writes is sacred
    Alchemy only he can ever figure out and create.. I feel sorry, that
    kind of mentality can only take him so far. Furthermore, I noticed
    two common traits that come with it, the absolute irrational
    devotion to one and only one closed software solution, and that they
    usually dream about working for Microsoft/Oracle one day.<br>
    Coding for them is a secret, not a way of life. <br>
    The ones I know are even very proud about their closeness, I even
    heard a term that a "closed" friend coined to describe that
    mentality: the black box.<br>
    Now, don't get me wrong I'm ok with closeness on the basis that it's
    a personal point of view whether for individuals or companies, why
    would I even care? However,... I care when I see a closed developer
    deliberately misleading a newbie and throwing him into infinite
    loops, I get angry and have to do something about it.</rant><br>
    <br>
    In the end, if you really really don't like your software (whatever
    it was) you are the only one stopping you from developing your own
    stuff. If you suspect open source software X of having a backdoor
    and that's really really important for you, clone the repo and start
    reading :)<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
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