Searching help.ubuntu.com does not work anymore..

Sat Nov 22 13:44:22 UTC 2008

Dustin Kirkland wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 10:45 AM, markoresko <minikola at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was trying to find something on help ubunut.com today..
>> And search for community documentation didn`t work.
>>
>> It only works if you enable Google.com scripts. And I will not. Ever.
> 
> I helped Matt implement this, so I suppose I should respond to this flame...

I wouldn`t call it a flame but if you say so, then..

>> So please, enable Search on help.ubuntu.com like it was before.
>> I will not use google search inside help.ubunut.com.
>> It it:
>> 1. Ugly
> 
> Really?  
Yes.
Google page inside Ubuntu site is Soo ugly to see..
Also that search result picture on search results is second most uglier
search results page. Google is prettier that that.

> I agree that the advertisements should go away, and perhaps
Interesting thing is that I don`t actually care about advertisements.
When I use google search they are not intrusive and I don`t mind seeing
them, why would I mind seeing them inside some other site search
results.
They ae not site`s search results, they are google search results, so
advertisements are forced to users the same way
google search is forced by site so I don`t see it as issue but as the
result of the issue.

> we can work with Canonical to perhaps pay off Google to remove those.
No we shouldn`t. And I think that it would be too expensive to do that
even with any small amount for it.
It would be better to pay some programmer to make some script that would
translate external google search (if it must be used) into some internal
view that is problem-free.
Displaying rputine inside a site don`t have anything to do with search
engine site is using. It could also use many different engines
and choose from result or use two of them and one for backup etc..
But Displaying of results is different issue.

> They did it for search.ubuntu.com (which uses Google).  But otherwise,
> I don't see anything "Ugly" about it.
Ok that is matter of opinion what is ugly for you and what is not.
But consider that if I go to the ubuntu site
and everything is Brown and every page is carefully made to be mostly
nicely incorporated in site style.
And suddenly I get amateur-like google output..
If I wanted to get search results from google, I would go to google.com
and type in  "some search site:.help.ubuntu.com"

Also search results should not be those that google desides what they
should be. Maybe someone will pay for its page to show up first
inside OUR search results? ..

>> 2. Google-dependent
> 
> Is that so bad?  
Yes. It shows that site that is implementing google-dependent scripts
is mostly one of the small and inferior group of people with money
problems.
I Don`t see Any Ubuntu user as inferior to any other OS user.
Why should we?
It is also meter of a pride not to publicly use public services like
that, not just because they are privately-owned and not part of the
community but also that proprietary influence could crash all our
efforts to make and have community search independent from such outside
companies.
Consider possibility that in the future google chrome will be integrated
in google search results or that results are not the same for all users.
Will you be able to notice that?
Or that google scripts are somehow intentionally broken in some nasty
way. You can`t change google scripts to something you like, can`t you?

> Google is strong supporter of Linux, cross-platform
> utilities, and Ubuntu in general.
Google is privately owned company and their supporting or non-supporting
of GNU operating systems, Including GNU/Linux is not an issue here.

You could say that also, Canonical itself is "strong supporter of Linux,
cross-platform utilities, and Ubuntu in general."

But the main difference between those two is that we are part of
Community and that many people in community are part
of the Canonical, Not some other company.

> I'll also note that you wrote this email from a Google gmail.com address.

And that is exactly proving my point.
If I want to use google mail for some of my publicly-related tasks,
then that shows that I have just about that amount of willingness
to consider Google mail as the privately enough for *that* usage.

So It also have nothing to do with that I am using google search Every
day and I use it intensively. And I am used to it when I want it.

But what I am Not used to is that I am _forced_ to use it in places
where I don`t expect it to show up, like our Community search results!

>> 3. Forcing users to allow Google java script to work on their machines.
> 
> I would agree that it would be nice to have a workable fall-back plan
> for users who don't have javascript enabled.  This is the distinct
> minority in today's world, however.
You are both wrong and right about that.

If you consider majority of users, most of the "John Doe`s" will use Web
browser that comes with their preinstalled OS when they buy their
computer, anyway. With all good and bad settings about it.
So majority of users doesn`t concern me in any way.

But if we are people that Can do something about mutual benefit
and benefit to all users including "John Doe`s" we shoul be able
to show to users an alternative, as a better way of doing things.

Ubuntu is better alternative, Firefox/Seamonkey is better alternative,
and NOT allowing every *amn script from every site you visit is
even better alternative.
If we are looking that way you are making site for majority
of users why don`t you make them IE-only search results?

Search results on every site should Not include need for
java script because it is NOT needed for a user.
Why should user have script turned on, just to see search results??
If you take a look at the google, I am using it from the day 1
without script. And noone in the universe of google is thinking
that scripts in their search results should consume Users`s cpu time on
global level..

Also, consider users that allow java scripts and flash _selectively_
only on sites where they absolutely need to.
That is exactly what I am doing by using NOScript extension
for Firefox and Seamonkey.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/722
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/722

That way I am saving my cpu time on broken flash animations that
will kill my machine (no matter how fast my cpu is) after about
10 opened tabs or so.

So what would happen if I enable google scripts in my browser?

1. All those sites that are poor and non technically strong, that use
google scripts for site statistics will have activated google scripts
in my browser. And that is very bat thing to do. To have the same
script in ALL of my browser tabs that maybe consumes cpu power
and sending private data. Maybe yes, maybe no, but who are we to know
what they will do with their script? They could do whatever they like..
Or consider Intercepting and forging those scripts by some of the
sites..
That is why scripts shoul be made LOCAL only and that is what they stand
for. To provide Local functions and Not cross-site functions.

2. Google will be able to track down what sites I am visiting,
Besides those ones that I found on Google. And I don`t want that.

3. Because many of those sites including google scripts
have 2 displaying solutions:
- display with no java script
- display with java script and external scripts
Most of the sites will not display their content correctly
if user enable Some external scripts (google) and some of them don`t.
Or If user enable just one external script but not other external
scripts and the site`s own scripts? Too complicated for site owner
and too bad for user that will not get the page displayed correctly.

4. Turning on java script un-selectively on all sites will kill
my machine by using too much cpu time. That is because when
I turn on javascript, I also turn on Flash animations.
And 5-6 Flash animations could consume 100% Cpu time, no matter
how fast cpu you have. That is because Flash is broken technology,
mostly by the ways that it is user on many stupid cpu-hungry sites.
Turning on java script and flash on all sites that they want to run
it on my machine, would ruin my user experience, waste my
resources (and other people resources).

> Matt, could we enable the legacy search page at another url, and
> perhaps link to it somewhere?

That would be very nice solution, providing that
you continue to maintain that search page with care.
(Like it is continuing to be main search page)

>> 4. Killing user`s privacy
>>  (since, people does not use help.ubuntu.com, but google.com)

2. Google will be able to track down what sites I am visiting,
Besides those ones that I found on Google. And I don`t want that.

> I've agreed that we should work on removing the ads.
Ads are not the problem. Ads are something as a result of a problem.
I don`t mind ads on public search engine like google.

> But I'm having a hard time conceiving of situations where you're
> willing to input search terms in a form on help.ubuntu.com, but
> unwilling to allow help.ubuntu.com to retrieve results from
> google.com....

help.ubuntu.com could retrieve results from the moon if it is preferred,
I don`t care where you retreive your search results from,
until they are not intrusive and they are relevant..

What I am unwilling is that I should be redirected to some other site
besides help.ubuntu.com for search results for help.ubuntu.com .

If you are fetching search results from outside source, then display
them as internal search result, in the way that user
doesn`t need to KNOW where they are coming from.
Also that would fix ugly looking of current google search result page.

> If privacy is an ultimate concern, you should consider using any one
> of a number of Tor-type proxy solutions.  See FoxyProxy, if you use
> Firefox.

Ok, thank you for your considering of my privacy, but
I CHOOSED to trust ubuntu.com with my privacy. And it is on me to choose
who do I trust and who I trust not.
And if you as a person that administer or help administering one site
like help.ubuntu.com, are willing to suggest that users
should use Tor-type proxy solutions to save their privacy onsite you are
administering, then not only that something is wrong with your site
but there is something wrong with something else..

Also, you could post that tor-proxy-privacy solution as the firs thing
on help.ubuntu.com so that people shoul know that their privacy
(And trust to Ubuntu) is gone from that moment. Is that affect that
we should make to new or first-time users searching for a solution for
their.... sound card or something?

>> If we as community can`t use, make and administer one small search host
>> for our internal documentation page
> 
> Writing a search engine from scratch is remarkably difficult.  I've tried.

I don`t believe that there is only one search engine in the world.
And that there are not thousands search solutions on all those sites
that implement internal search results on their site..

> I've also implemented and used an locally hosted open source search
> engine in the past, Mnogosearch.  The feedback from my users was
> extremely negative.  They had come to expect search results to match
> the format and quality of Google, which they used for everything else.

What site are you talking about? help.ubuntu.com or some other?
I am a bit confused about what site you are mentioning?
"Get used" is relative thing.
My first impression about look and feel of previous search result
on help.ubuntu.com was also not that positive..
I was also "used to" google search result format.
BUT, after a while, I get used to help.ubuntu.com way of displaying
results. And after a while, I was thankful that they are
actually different from google`s.
I get used to it and now I am forced to get used to seing google on
help.ubuntu.com . It is painfull to get used to something that you are
forced to..

Also, couldn`t you make internal search results "look and feel"
diferentely? (To resemble what users are "used to") ;)

> Do you have another suggestion for a better search engine?

How big is the base of pages that should be search for keywords and
article title search?
On what hardware/software is it working on? How much requests should it
serve etc..

Since Google is such big supporter of open source and linux, maybe they
could donate their lighter version of search engine for local use?

Wikipedia have interesting search engine..
(but for some reason they are staying low-profile..)
Take a look at the Nutch
http://lucene.apache.org/nutch/
Wikia Search
http://search.wikia.com/wiki/Search_Wikia

>> , then I would be ashamed to tell
>> to people:
>>
>> "Go to help.ubuntu.com : they are so weak they don`t even have their
>> documentation search , but they use Google for that.." ~:-|
> 
> We didn't see any advantage in re-inventing the wheel here.
But adminting that we are weak is not re-assuring for new users,
eather..

> Like it or not, Google has become the de facto standard for searching
> on the web.  They're quite good at it.  And they've made tools
> available to customize such search engines.

And they are de facto private company that have nothing to do with
ubuntu documentation community search.
If you want to use their search engine, use it on server-side,
not putting it to user`s throat.

> If you have a constructive solution in mind, I'm sure Matt is quite
> interested in hearing...

The most constructive solution is to use whatever search engine you
want on server side and to represent results
in community-friendly and ubuntu-friendly designed way that does not
forces users to go for google. it is the same as you
put "go to google for help" and link to google on the main page of
help.ubuntu.com . It sounds much like: "Read the f* manual" type of
answer.. ("Go to f* google for help...")
We want to provide people with help, not getting them back to google..
where they came from mostly..

The best thing to it is to tranfer non-javascript users to serach engine
we used to happily use till now.
And to search for alternatives in the future..