From corey.burger at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 00:15:59 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:15:59 -0800 Subject: Wiki ideas In-Reply-To: <424C6D7E.7070506@trickie.org> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <348bd6da050329233411d2368d@mail.gmail.com> <424C3013.2050801@canonical.com> <200503312202.40966.sean@inwords.co.za> <424C6D7E.7070506@trickie.org> Message-ID: <348bd6da0503311615375ca009@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, seems to be a trend here. I likewise will not be at UDU. Corey On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 07:37:02 +1000, Nick Loeve wrote: > Sean Wheller wrote: > > On Thursday 31 March 2005 19:14, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > > >>I really like the idea of melding docbook and wiki. Let's flesh the idea > >>out at UDU. > > > > > > Hello Mark, > > > > Speaking for myself. > > > > I will unfortunately not be at UDU. Can you propose another method? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Unfortunately even though i live in Aust, i cannot get time off work. > > I was really looking forward to it too :( > > Cheers > trickie (Nick Loeve) > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > From jgotangco at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 03:19:04 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome S. Gotangco) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:19:04 +0800 Subject: Wiki ideas In-Reply-To: <200503312202.40966.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <348bd6da050329233411d2368d@mail.gmail.com> <424C3013.2050801@canonical.com> <200503312202.40966.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> I will be at UDU although I have barely contributed anything to the DocTeam at the moment, I'll see what I can research about the idea since I have been doing a lot of stuff in the wiki lately. Jerome Gotangco On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 22:02 +0200, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Thursday 31 March 2005 19:14, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > I really like the idea of melding docbook and wiki. Let's flesh the idea > > out at UDU. > > Hello Mark, > > Speaking for myself. > > I will unfortunately not be at UDU. Can you propose another method? > > Thanks, -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From george.deka at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 04:32:08 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:32:08 +1000 Subject: Wiki ideas In-Reply-To: <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <348bd6da050329233411d2368d@mail.gmail.com> <424C3013.2050801@canonical.com> <200503312202.40966.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <72003cb7050331203274c99430@mail.gmail.com> Cant afford to be there - i am only in melbourne but its the accom. Wish i could be though, i only found out about UDU the day after sponsorships had closed On Apr 1, 2005 1:19 PM, Jerome S. Gotangco wrote: > I will be at UDU although I have barely contributed anything to the > DocTeam at the moment, I'll see what I can research about the idea since > I have been doing a lot of stuff in the wiki lately. > > Jerome Gotangco > > On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 22:02 +0200, Sean Wheller wrote: > > On Thursday 31 March 2005 19:14, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > > I really like the idea of melding docbook and wiki. Let's flesh the idea > > > out at UDU. > > > > Hello Mark, > > > > Speaking for myself. > > > > I will unfortunately not be at UDU. Can you propose another method? > > > > Thanks, > > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > > > > -- Get Firefox! From jgotangco at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 07:38:08 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome S. Gotangco) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:38:08 +0800 Subject: Just a typo change on a name Message-ID: <1112341088.8870.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Just found a small typo on one of the names of the Contributors -- Jerome S. Gotangco WWW:http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/JeromeGotangco Email:jgotangco at gmail.com GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu Y!M: jsgotangco IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PhilippineTeam -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: releasenotes.diff Type: text/x-patch Size: 1319 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mark at canonical.com Fri Apr 1 09:11:22 2005 From: mark at canonical.com (Mark Shuttleworth) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 10:11:22 +0100 Subject: Wiki ideas In-Reply-To: <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <348bd6da050329233411d2368d@mail.gmail.com> <424C3013.2050801@canonical.com> <200503312202.40966.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> OK Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what you guys come up with. In general, I'll be supportive of something that lets us do wiki-style development of docbook materials, though I know James will refuse to run PHP stuff on our servers. Mark From corey.burger at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 09:23:44 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:23:44 -0800 Subject: Wiki ideas In-Reply-To: <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <348bd6da050329233411d2368d@mail.gmail.com> <424C3013.2050801@canonical.com> <200503312202.40966.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> Message-ID: <348bd6da05040101237a31807e@mail.gmail.com> Ok. Understandable about the PHP stuff. It is too bad as some of the nicest wiki software is PHP, IMHO. Corey On Apr 1, 2005 1:11 AM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > OK > > Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what > you guys come up with. In general, I'll be supportive of something that > lets us do wiki-style development of docbook materials, though I know > James will refuse to run PHP stuff on our servers. > > Mark > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 1 11:55:38 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:55:38 +0200 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> Message-ID: <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> On Friday 01 April 2005 11:11, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what > you guys come up with. Hello Mark, Corey, Mark you have me thinking, but I am not convinced that doing this kind of project in the space of the doc team is the best thing to do. First, it detracts from our prime focus, to write documents. Second, most of us are not coders. We all have varying skills with Linux but few of us are software architects or coders. Where we can offer the most value is on work process, editing docbook, docbook xml framework and usability. I may be speaking for myself here, but this is how I feel. On to the issue. I am not convinced that the solution we are discussing is suitable for every use case. I think it needs to be made clear that we are not looking for a web building application. I am therefore limiting my use case to the area of documentation. Let me try to make this a bit clearer by stating an objective. To build a system combining the functionality of document, content and knowledge management. Facilitating easy document creation, revision management, translation, and information access. Implimenting methods based on the separation of concerns. Promoting the maximum level of indirection between the content layer, presentation layer and the capabilities of various user agents and devices used buy the user-audiences and the tasks they perform throughout the information life-cycle. User Profiling: * Developers - Authors - Translators * Readers - Anyone who searches/reads support documents Note: I have purposely tried to make this objective as generic possible in order to allow maximum latitude within the vision engineering that may surround the design of any implimenting solution. Up until this point, I am not concerned with the application layers used for implimentation. However, I believe that any system aiming to fulfill this objective would have to be xml-centric. Adoption of open standards such as XML and XSLT would therefore form key technology building blocks. In our senario we are interested in developing the above outlined functionality around Docbook XML within the context of open source development methodology. K/Ubuntu Linux is our customer. While it is certainly possible to incorporate addition formats and contexts, I would like to caution that we refrain from doing so. My reasoning? Well, I feel that for now it is better to avoid becoming 'all encompassing' and risk complication that may slow development and move us away from what we set out to achieve in the first place. Let's not forget why we are even discussing this. We have an itch for a system that combines the power docbook with the ease of use and low barrier to entry experienced under web-based apps, this, inorder to promote document development, translation and management so that K/Ubuntu users may benefit. Bite the elephant, one bite at a time. After this, if others want to extended it, then all power and support to them. No doubt, we are on a bleading edge here, but there is a latent demand for such as solution, so I would not be at all surprised if support will be strong. There is an old saying that goes, "There are many way to skin a cat." The natural inclination, so far, has been to jump at using wiki/plone. Are we sure this is the correct approach? Would it not be prudent to investigate other solutions. There are many open source applications that could serve as the basis for development of such a solution. Each will have their pros and cons, I am sure. Some will require more development in order to attain the objective and others will not. For my side, as an example, I think that the following solution may be better suited to our requirements. Web-app ----------- Apache Lenya [1], based on Apache Cocoon [2], running under Tomcat [3] and extended either the Kupu [4] or BXE [5] Editors. Repos ----------- Lenya has two main repositories: 1. Live 2. Authoring Content can move from authoring into Live via the work flow. The authoring repos should be a working copy of svn. On a sensitive note: There is much religious doctin at Ubuntu with regards to python, gnome and so on. Can we for now put aside religious proclivity and technology preferences and give it an open mind. I think it is better to focus, in order, on the following: 1. The Problem 2. The Need 3. The Users 4. The Use Cases 5. The Requirements 6. The Technologies 7. The Plan Let's choose the best technologies to address 1-5 without re-inventing the wheel. May be python is best, maybe java, maybe PHP. Let's see. > In general, I'll be supportive of something that > lets us do wiki-style development of docbook materials, though I know > James will refuse to run PHP stuff on our servers. While I am not promoting PHP or any other technology for building a web-based front-end, I fail to understand the reasoning behind the word "refuse." There are thousands of systems running PHP, the issue of security lock down should be seperated here. I am reasonably certain that with proper investigation any system can be secured with the proper application of intellect. I would like to think that we have open minds and the ability to realize that there are problems with any system. The challenge is for us to understand such problems and develop solutions to solve them. Afterall, that is the basis of software development, find a problem and address it. Most of the problems are already known, what frightens me is the problems of which we have no knowledge. The problems I know pose little risk because I know of them; they can be addressed by simply taking action. Problems we do not know of are the high risk for we know not of them and cannot therefore decide on a course of action. Well, thanks for your time. Thoughts from all would be appreciated on the discussion and example provided. Please, if anyone feels offended by anything I have said in this message, believe me it is not done with intent. I like to just say it how I see it. I realize this can make me unpopular at times, but hey my view is just that and carries no pressure on my part to force support for its adoption. Above all I respect discussion and breadth of perspective. [1] http://lenya.apache.org [2] http://cocoon.apache.org/ [3] http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/index.html [4] http://kupu.oscom.org/ [5] http://bxe.oscom.org/ -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paroz at email.ch Fri Apr 1 13:51:50 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:51:50 +0200 Subject: Order of elements Message-ID: <1112363510.4330.23.camel@paroz> Hi, One of our translators asked us the following : In the quickguide, order of menu description is defined with alphabetic order, in English, of course. If we translate in other languages, the order will probably change (eg. Office is Bureautique in French). Do you think it should be possible to change order of elements in the translated xml Docbook, and keep with our translation process (po2xml or Rosetta) ? Claude From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 1 13:53:03 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:53:03 +0200 Subject: Order of elements In-Reply-To: <1112363510.4330.23.camel@paroz> References: <1112363510.4330.23.camel@paroz> Message-ID: <200504011553.07934.sean@inwords.co.za> On Friday 01 April 2005 15:51, Claude Paroz wrote: > One of our translators asked us the following : > In the quickguide, order of menu description is defined with alphabetic > order, in English, of course. > If we translate in other languages, the order will probably change (eg. > Office is Bureautique in French). Do you think it should be possible to > change order of elements in the translated xml Docbook, and keep with > our translation process (po2xml or Rosetta) Claude you make a good point. Actually all menus should be coming from Entities and we have not made pot files for their translation. :-( The correct method should be to make pot files for all menus and create an entity file for lang specific stuff such as menus. For example: %xinclude; %globalent; %globallangent; ]> So all menus for fr will be defined in %globallangent; Therefore All the Open Office application components are available under &open-office;. The entity &open-office; will not require a change and will automatically pickup the menu in the language specified by the %globallangent; As for the order, it needs to make sense in the target language. Does this make sense? -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark at canonical.com Fri Apr 1 15:27:06 2005 From: mark at canonical.com (Mark Shuttleworth) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:27:06 +0100 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <424D684A.5090207@canonical.com> Sean, thanks for a great summary of the state of the art. I'm not suggesting we should try to develop something new from a software or content-management perspective within the doc-team - I'm suggesting that the doc-team lead the search for a good platform, from the existing tools out there. It seems you've already made a good start :-) Sean Wheller wrote: >On Friday 01 April 2005 11:11, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > >>Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what >>you guys come up with. >> >> > >Hello Mark, Corey, > >Mark you have me thinking, but I am not convinced that doing this kind of >project in the space of the doc team is the best thing to do. First, it >detracts from our prime focus, to write documents. Second, most of us are not >coders. We all have varying skills with Linux but few of us are software >architects or coders. Where we can offer the most value is on work process, >editing docbook, docbook xml framework and usability. I may be speaking for >myself here, but this is how I feel. > >On to the issue. > >I am not convinced that the solution we are discussing is suitable for every >use case. I think it needs to be made clear that we are not looking for a web >building application. I am therefore limiting my use case to the area of >documentation. Let me try to make this a bit clearer by stating an >objective. > >To build a system combining the functionality of document, content and >knowledge management. Facilitating easy document creation, revision >management, translation, and information access. Implimenting methods based >on the separation of concerns. Promoting the maximum level of indirection >between the content layer, presentation layer and the capabilities of various >user agents and devices used buy the user-audiences and the tasks they >perform throughout the information life-cycle. > >User Profiling: >* Developers > - Authors > - Translators >* Readers > - Anyone who searches/reads support documents > >Note: I have purposely tried to make this objective as generic possible in >order to allow maximum latitude within the vision engineering that may >surround the design of any implimenting solution. > >Up until this point, I am not concerned with the application layers used for >implimentation. However, I believe that any system aiming to fulfill this >objective would have to be xml-centric. Adoption of open standards such as >XML and XSLT would therefore form key technology building blocks. > >In our senario we are interested in developing the above outlined >functionality around Docbook XML within the context of open source >development methodology. K/Ubuntu Linux is our customer. > >While it is certainly possible to incorporate addition formats and contexts, I >would like to caution that we refrain from doing so. My reasoning? Well, I >feel that for now it is better to avoid becoming 'all encompassing' and risk >complication that may slow development and move us away from what we set out >to achieve in the first place. Let's not forget why we are even discussing >this. We have an itch for a system that combines the power docbook with the >ease of use and low barrier to entry experienced under web-based apps, this, >inorder to promote document development, translation and management so that >K/Ubuntu users may benefit. > >Bite the elephant, one bite at a time. After this, if others want to extended >it, then all power and support to them. No doubt, we are on a bleading edge >here, but there is a latent demand for such as solution, so I would not be at >all surprised if support will be strong. > >There is an old saying that goes, "There are many way to skin a cat." The >natural inclination, so far, has been to jump at using wiki/plone. Are we >sure this is the correct approach? Would it not be prudent to investigate >other solutions. There are many open source applications that could serve as >the basis for development of such a solution. Each will have their pros and >cons, I am sure. Some will require more development in order to attain the >objective and others will not. > >For my side, as an example, I think that the following solution may be better >suited to our requirements. > >Web-app >----------- >Apache Lenya [1], based on Apache Cocoon [2], running under Tomcat [3] and >extended either the Kupu [4] or BXE [5] Editors. > >Repos >----------- >Lenya has two main repositories: >1. Live >2. Authoring > > >Content can move from authoring into Live via the work flow. The authoring >repos should be a working copy of svn. > >On a sensitive note: There is much religious doctin at Ubuntu with regards to >python, gnome and so on. Can we for now put aside religious proclivity and >technology preferences and give it an open mind. I think it is better to >focus, in order, on the following: >1. The Problem >2. The Need >3. The Users >4. The Use Cases >5. The Requirements >6. The Technologies >7. The Plan > >Let's choose the best technologies to address 1-5 without re-inventing the >wheel. May be python is best, maybe java, maybe PHP. Let's see. > > > >>In general, I'll be supportive of something that >>lets us do wiki-style development of docbook materials, though I know >>James will refuse to run PHP stuff on our servers. >> >> > >While I am not promoting PHP or any other technology for building a web-based >front-end, I fail to understand the reasoning behind the word "refuse." There >are thousands of systems running PHP, the issue of security lock down should >be seperated here. I am reasonably certain that with proper investigation any >system can be secured with the proper application of intellect. > >I would like to think that we have open minds and the ability to realize that >there are problems with any system. The challenge is for us to understand >such problems and develop solutions to solve them. Afterall, that is the >basis of software development, find a problem and address it. Most of the >problems are already known, what frightens me is the problems of which we >have no knowledge. The problems I know pose little risk because I know of >them; they can be addressed by simply taking action. Problems we do not know >of are the high risk for we know not of them and cannot therefore decide on a >course of action. > >Well, thanks for your time. Thoughts from all would be appreciated on the >discussion and example provided. > >Please, if anyone feels offended by anything I have said in this message, >believe me it is not done with intent. I like to just say it how I see it. I >realize this can make me unpopular at times, but hey my view is just that and >carries no pressure on my part to force support for its adoption. Above all I >respect discussion and breadth of perspective. > >[1] http://lenya.apache.org >[2] http://cocoon.apache.org/ >[3] http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/index.html >[4] http://kupu.oscom.org/ >[5] http://bxe.oscom.org/ > > > From matthew.east at breathe.com Fri Apr 1 16:19:38 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 17:19:38 +0100 Subject: Docteam translation In-Reply-To: <20050401181022.577c6833@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050401181022.577c6833@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Hi Laura, Laura Ohrndorf writes: > Hi, > > I could translate the Docteam documentations to German. wonderful! The most important documents are aboutubuntu.pot and releasenotes.pot. Naturally the quickguide.pot is very long and will take some time. Maybe you could coordinate with some others to do it? > I already downloaded them, but could you tell me please where to send > them after finishing my translation? Send them to ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com, or to me! If you have any doubt about how to do the translation, just ask! thanks again!! Matt From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 1 16:32:51 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:32:51 +0200 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <424D684A.5090207@canonical.com> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> <424D684A.5090207@canonical.com> Message-ID: <200504011832.55299.sean@inwords.co.za> On Friday 01 April 2005 17:27, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > Sean, thanks for a great summary of the state of the art. I'm not > suggesting we should try to develop something new from a software or > content-management perspective within the doc-team - I'm suggesting that > the doc-team lead the search for a good platform, from the existing > tools out there. It seems you've already made a good start :-) OK thanks. Just for clarity sake, are you saying that you and Canonical will support our decision regardless of technology selection and be willing to provide the hosting infrastructure? I don't want to expend energy on this if I know that the road I'm traveling is a deadend. :-) If so I will certainly be willing to put effort behind such an initiative. I can't speak for the other members and would like their thoughts on the matter. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ubuntu at moosmilbe.de Fri Apr 1 17:28:30 2005 From: ubuntu at moosmilbe.de (Laura Ohrndorf) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:28:30 +0200 Subject: Docteam translations In-Reply-To: <1112048226.6561.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112048226.6561.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050401192830.29e66747@localhost.localdomain> Matthew East wrote: > The Docteam documentations has been finalised for hoary now and it > needs translating. The following documents are in the docteam svn > repository(http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepositor > y): AboutUbuntu and ReleaseNotes in .pot file format. I thought that I > would message some of the LocoTeams to ask if you're interested in > organising translation of these docs. Basically they need to be > translated and returned to the docteam in .po format. The French > version is already done, and I've messaged the italian list > separately. We can forward copies of the .pot files if you can't get > em off the repository. > > No worries if it can't be done, it was just an idea. Ist schon jemand dabei, das zu tun? Ich hab hier eine halb ?bersetzte release-notes-de.po liegen und jetzt leider keine Zeit mehr um weiterzumachen (schei? Verpflichtungen...). Vielleicht m?chte das ja jemand als Grundlage nehmen und weitermachen? Dann war meine Anfangsarbeit nicht ganz umsonst. :-) Ist hier runterzuladen: http://www-stud.uni-essen.de/~sdlaohrn/release-notes-de.po Da muss noch einiges erg?nzt, korrigiert und verbessert werden. Aber vielleicht hat ja jemand Spa? daran. Das fertige Produkt darf dann an ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com geschickt werden. Gruss, Laura -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ubuntu at moosmilbe.de Fri Apr 1 17:31:50 2005 From: ubuntu at moosmilbe.de (Laura Ohrndorf) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:31:50 +0200 Subject: Docteam translations In-Reply-To: <20050401192830.29e66747@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112048226.6561.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050401192830.29e66747@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050401193150.771017d1@localhost.localdomain> Laura Ohrndorf wrote: > > No worries if it can't be done, it was just an idea. > > Ist schon jemand dabei, das zu tun? [...] Argh, sorry. Just wanted to send this to the German ubuntu-list and pressed on reply without checking where I was sending this mail. So ignore this. Gruss, Laura -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark at canonical.com Fri Apr 1 18:19:24 2005 From: mark at canonical.com (Mark Shuttleworth) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 19:19:24 +0100 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <200504011832.55299.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> <424D684A.5090207@canonical.com> <200504011832.55299.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <424D90AC.7030204@canonical.com> Sean Wheller wrote: >On Friday 01 April 2005 17:27, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > >>Sean, thanks for a great summary of the state of the art. I'm not >>suggesting we should try to develop something new from a software or >>content-management perspective within the doc-team - I'm suggesting that >>the doc-team lead the search for a good platform, from the existing >>tools out there. It seems you've already made a good start :-) >> >> > >OK thanks. > >Just for clarity sake, are you saying that you and Canonical will support our >decision regardless of technology selection and be willing to provide the >hosting infrastructure? > > Yes, subject to it passing security muster. If you're using piece of Main then that's easy, if not, then James and Matt will have to sign off on it, and PHP is not likely to make it. From jeffschering at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 19:50:00 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:50:00 -0800 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 3:55 AM, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Friday 01 April 2005 11:11, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what > > you guys come up with. > > Hello Mark, Corey, > snip snip... > this. We have an itch for a system that combines the power docbook >with the > ease of use and low barrier to entry experienced under web-based apps, Hi Sean A wiki page with docbook source. A wiki page with a comments section. If contributors don't want to jump the docbook barrier, then they simply add a comment to the wiki page. The comments could be as simple as "It's 5.04, not 5.40". They could also be a bit more complicated, such as "The paragraph 'blah blah blah...' should be changed to 'yadda yadda yadda...' ". Someone knowledgable in docbook will then incorporate the comments into the docbook source, and then transfer the comment to the history page. Maybe call the comments "Document Change Notice" (DCN). Give each DCN a serial number, have it added to a list of things to do (or emailed to the doc list perhaps?), and if contributors leave an email address, then send them a happy thank-you message when their change is incorporated. A whole process could be worked up to maintain good configuration management and version control of the docs. The only part that can't be automated is the incorporation of wiki page comments into the docbook source. The wiki page content + comments will always be the latest. An added side benefit is that potential long term contributers will get exposed to docbook early on as they may soon tire of adding comments, and just dive into the docbook source just one click away. They may find that it's easy to work on docbook without knowing all of docbook. Another benefit is that contributors won't have to bother themselves with svn and whatnot. They simply work on the wiki page's docbook source, and the rest is taken care of in the background. With this method, writers write, and developers develop. Writers won't have to learn developer's tools such as svn. What do you think? Am I missing something obvious? It sounds so simple. Cheers, Jeff From matthew.east at breathe.com Fri Apr 1 20:57:18 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:57:18 +0100 Subject: Announcing Ubuntu Language Teams In-Reply-To: <20050401184950.GB30057@muse.19inch.net> References: <20050401184950.GB30057@muse.19inch.net> Message-ID: <1112389038.6898.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Dear Dafydd, Il giorno ven, 01/04/2005 alle 19.49 +0100, Dafydd Harries ha scritto: > Hi translators! > > We are almost ready to handle Ubuntu translations through Rosetta! Although you said in your email that further instructions would follow, I wanted to raise some questions I had about the system, just to get things clear in my mind! Hope this is ok. 1) What is the justification for having separate ubuntu-translators and rosetta-users mailing lists? 2) As already pointed out by one user, there are multiples of languages which will cause a lot of confusion. Examples are Italian, Italian (Italy), Italy (Switzerland), French, French (France), French (Switzerland) etc... How are we to deal with this. 3) The documentation under the hoary category is extremely difficult to categorise. First, it does not appear to be in any sort of logical order. More worryingly, some of the documents (such as the ubuntu quickguide and aboutubuntu notes from the docteam) appear twice. How are we to deal with this? 4) In several languages (french, italian, german, portugese) some work has already been done on po files for the docteam documentation. What can we do with this to prevent that it gets worked on twice? 5) In many languages it is unlikely that teams will be established. Teams generally already exist for upstream documentation, but for Ubuntu specific translations it seems to me that very few languages will be able to form permanent teams. Will the system be able to deal with this? thanks very much in advance!! Matt From corey.burger at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 21:21:17 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:21:17 -0800 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <348bd6da05040113216f613e61@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 1, 2005 11:50 AM, Jeff Schering wrote: > On Apr 1, 2005 3:55 AM, Sean Wheller wrote: > > On Friday 01 April 2005 11:11, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > > Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what > > > you guys come up with. > > > > Hello Mark, Corey, > > > snip snip... > > > this. We have an itch for a system that combines the power docbook >with the > > ease of use and low barrier to entry experienced under web-based apps, > > Hi Sean > > A wiki page with docbook source. > A wiki page with a comments section. > > If contributors don't want to jump the docbook barrier, then they > simply add a comment to the wiki page. The comments could be as simple > as "It's 5.04, not 5.40". They could also be a bit more complicated, > such as "The paragraph 'blah blah blah...' should be changed to 'yadda > yadda yadda...' ". Someone knowledgable in docbook will then > incorporate the comments into the docbook source, and then transfer > the comment to the history page. > > Maybe call the comments "Document Change Notice" (DCN). Give each DCN > a serial number, have it added to a list of things to do (or emailed > to the doc list perhaps?), and if contributors leave an email address, > then send them a happy thank-you message when their change is > incorporated. > > A whole process could be worked up to maintain good configuration > management and version control of the docs. The only part that can't > be automated is the incorporation of wiki page comments into the > docbook source. > > The wiki page content + comments will always be the latest. > > An added side benefit is that potential long term contributers will > get exposed to docbook early on as they may soon tire of adding > comments, and just dive into the docbook source just one click away. > They may find that it's easy to work on docbook without knowing all of > docbook. > > Another benefit is that contributors won't have to bother themselves > with svn and whatnot. They simply work on the wiki page's docbook > source, and the rest is taken care of in the background. With this > method, writers write, and developers develop. Writers won't have to > learn developer's tools such as svn. > > What do you think? Am I missing something obvious? It sounds so simple. > > Cheers, > Jeff > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > To me, that is a good temporary solution, but it really doesn't harness the power of the wiki, in that anybody can edit from anywhere. It also means a lot of duplication of effort, as the comments are made into docbook. Corey From ubuntu at trickie.org Sat Apr 2 00:19:03 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 10:19:03 +1000 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <1112325544.8870.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <424D103A.6010606@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <424DE4F7.7040404@trickie.org> Sean Wheller wrote: > On Friday 01 April 2005 11:11, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > >>Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what >>you guys come up with. > > > Hello Mark, Corey, Hi Sean and All, I have not had much time to really sit down and think about this whole thing, but Sean's analysis of the problem looks very good, and goes a bit deeper into whats has to happen than most of the discussion about the wiki/docbook idea. I agree with Sean on the following points: - We need to look at what products are out there that can help - It makes no sense to not be able to use those products because of the technology they are implemented with (especially if that is the start and end of the argument there) - Surely security can be achieved with other technologies - i have had a lot of experience with PHP and would be willing to help share my experience with PHP and security issues - I do not think that a web based solution is the way to go for everything. I know that for a large document (or even for something as big as the quickguide) it is more manageable if editing is offline) I can appreciate that Python and related technologies are the primary development tools used throughout Ubuntu, because it is a common 'language' for all using it (not just the semantics of the language itself but terms and meanings surrounding it), there are experienced people who can help out when things go wrong, it may help when auditing software (i do not know how that works exactly, but am sure that having a focus on one primary technology helps to make that process not so tedious, expensive or difficult). The problem that i can see is that when a team like the docteam wants to do something, like the wiki/docbook idea, then immediately we are told or get the impression, that we will have to use python and related technologies. That in itself is not a problem, but as Sean said, not everyone is a coder here. So: - Those that want to contribute have to learn Python - At the present time it does not sound like there are any Ubuntu developers who are wanting to work on this process - There is no sort 'point-of-contact', other than Enrico, for issues/idea/problems in regards to technology/deployment options/availability of software for the doc team to use. And after all that, to get back to another of Sean's point, those working on this project will not be creating documentation. Maybe what we need is a seperate subteam 'Ubuntu Documentation Technology Team' or something. That way energy is not being sapped from the documenation effort, but those that want to contribute to both seperate ideas (creating docs, creating a system for creating docs) are free to do so. At present the doc team is pretty small, so i do not know if there is enough man power to create another seperate team, but over time the 'Ubuntu Documentation Technology Team' could attract existing or new Ubutnu developers, and build closer ties with those that are in the know in regards to building software for Ubuntu, deploying software for Ubutnu and maintaining software Ubutnu. So that my 2 cents, i hadn't really thought out all i had said, feel free to ignore it, i mainly just wanted to show that i have been listening to what eveyone has been saying :) Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 2 06:39:42 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:39:42 +0200 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504020839.47075.sean@inwords.co.za> On Friday 01 April 2005 21:50, Jeff Schering wrote: > What do you think? Am I missing something obvious? It sounds so simple. :-) Jeff, Definitely this process can work and sometimes we can be guilty of employing fancy technology when simple solutions are better. However, in this case the problem, in my opinion, worth throwing technology at. As Corey has said, the current solution is not managable. We are looking to make it so and retain content in a format that can be accessed programatically and packaged for purposes other than web viewing. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 2 06:53:14 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:53:14 +0200 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <424DE4F7.7040404@trickie.org> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> <424DE4F7.7040404@trickie.org> Message-ID: <200504020853.17977.sean@inwords.co.za> On Saturday 02 April 2005 02:19, Nick Loeve wrote: > Sean Wheller wrote: > > On Friday 01 April 2005 11:11, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > >>Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what > >>you guys come up with. > > > > Hello Mark, Corey, > > > > > - Surely security can be achieved with other technologies - i have had > > a lot of experience with PHP and would be willing to help share my > experience with PHP and security issues I think we are in the right here, but it is also hard to change perceptions. If James and team don't want then I kinda get the feeling that we could be fighting a losing battle unless we host externally. > > - I do not think that a web based solution is the way to go for > everything. I know that for a large document (or even for something > as big as the quickguide) it is more manageable if editing is > offline) Agreed. As I see it, a web-based front end is just one interface. Under the objective I never mentioned that the only editing interface would be Web-based. I do state that the Authoring repos is a working copy of svn. The way I see it is that we will merge changes from this working copy into our svn. Think of the web-app as just another user/author in the team. Just an author on steroids because it is actually the work on many more people. The nature of the solution I suggested in that it enforces structure from the content to the organization of the information architecture. This makes it far more managable than what we have now. > > And after all that, to get back to another of Sean's point, those > working on this project will not be creating documentation. Maybe what > we need is a seperate subteam 'Ubuntu Documentation Technology Team' or > something. That way energy is not being sapped from the documenation > effort, but those that want to contribute to both seperate ideas > (creating docs, creating a system for creating docs) are free to do so. > > At present the doc team is pretty small, so i do not know if there is > enough man power to create another seperate team, but over time the > 'Ubuntu Documentation Technology Team' could attract existing or new > Ubutnu developers, and build closer ties with those that are in the know > in regards to building software for Ubuntu, deploying software for > Ubutnu and maintaining software Ubutnu. > If I understand Mark correctly, he is saying let the doc team forge an idea and present it, then he will muster devels to support it. From our part we need to to the investigation. I suggest we create a specification document based on our resarch and use that to present. Once devels get involved we can assist in ways we can, if we wish. I will start preparing a basic document for us to collaborate on. In the interim I think it would be productive if people search for solutions and post links to the list under this thread. We can then discuss each solution and narrow down the list to the top 3 candidates. Any other ideas welcomed. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ubuntu at trickie.org Sat Apr 2 07:29:36 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 17:29:36 +1000 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <200504020853.17977.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> <424DE4F7.7040404@trickie.org> <200504020853.17977.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <424E49E0.4030900@trickie.org> Sean Wheller wrote: > On Saturday 02 April 2005 02:19, Nick Loeve wrote: > >>Sean Wheller wrote: >> >>>On Friday 01 April 2005 11:11, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: >>> >>>>Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what >>>>you guys come up with. >>> >>>Hello Mark, Corey, >> >> >> >> >> - Surely security can be achieved with other technologies - i have had >> >> a lot of experience with PHP and would be willing to help share my >> experience with PHP and security issues > > > I think we are in the right here, but it is also hard to change perceptions. > If James and team don't want then I kinda get the feeling that we could be > fighting a losing battle unless we host externally. Agreed, and i do not really mind at all. I love most of the technology that Ubuntu and it's developers are pushing and would like to become more proficient using those tools. > > >> - I do not think that a web based solution is the way to go for >> everything. I know that for a large document (or even for something >> as big as the quickguide) it is more manageable if editing is >> offline) > > > Agreed. As I see it, a web-based front end is just one interface. Under the > objective I never mentioned that the only editing interface would be > Web-based. I do state that the Authoring repos is a working copy of svn. The > way I see it is that we will merge changes from this working copy into our > svn. Think of the web-app as just another user/author in the team. Just an > author on steroids because it is actually the work on many more people. Ok, that makes sense. > > The nature of the solution I suggested in that it enforces structure from the > content to the organization of the information architecture. This makes it > far more managable than what we have now. > > >>And after all that, to get back to another of Sean's point, those >>working on this project will not be creating documentation. Maybe what >>we need is a seperate subteam 'Ubuntu Documentation Technology Team' or >>something. That way energy is not being sapped from the documenation >>effort, but those that want to contribute to both seperate ideas >>(creating docs, creating a system for creating docs) are free to do so. >> >>At present the doc team is pretty small, so i do not know if there is >>enough man power to create another seperate team, but over time the >>'Ubuntu Documentation Technology Team' could attract existing or new >>Ubutnu developers, and build closer ties with those that are in the know >>in regards to building software for Ubuntu, deploying software for >>Ubutnu and maintaining software Ubutnu. >> > > If I understand Mark correctly, he is saying let the doc team forge an idea > and present it, then he will muster devels to support it. From our part we > need to to the investigation. I suggest we create a specification document > based on our resarch and use that to present. Once devels get involved we can > assist in ways we can, if we wish. Ok great. I originally wanted to do some development for Ubuntu, but got into the doc team because (with no experience of Debian development etc) the barriers to entry were lower. I would really love to be part of any development for this idea, but have also enjoyed and want to keep enjoying working with the team on documenation and discussing ideas surrounding the generation of documentation. > > I will start preparing a basic document for us to collaborate on. In the > interim I think it would be productive if people search for solutions and > post links to the list under this thread. We can then discuss each solution > and narrow down the list to the top 3 candidates. Agreed. Thats a great idea, thanks for taking on the setup. Cheers, trickie (Nick Loeve) From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 09:48:24 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 01:48:24 -0800 Subject: Web based solutions Message-ID: <348bd6da050402014835ab83f6@mail.gmail.com> Sean and I had a good discussion regarding a web-based solution. We agreed on some general points to continue the discussion with the rest of the docteam. 1. Single source for all docs Unify wiki and other sources into a single entry point. help.ubuntu.com was suggested. 2. All docs editable at that source 3. All docs editable in an offline way, as is already happening 4. Allow easy interlanguage links for docs See what wikipedia does with interwiki links, something similar or better 5. All docs remain in a form of version control 6. System allows easy creation from text to PDF, PS, HTML, etc. ------ Now comes the gritty part, the implementation: Option 1: Use exisiting solution. Mark has indicated that he would allow something that checks out in a security manner to be run. However, some of these solutions involve Java or PHP. The one that Sean mentioned as solving most of the problems discussed above was Apache Lenya, which is written in Java. Option 2: Mark also mentioned that he might be willing to throw some developers at the problem, if we as a team can come up with a specific set of goals. The might involve extending the Plone framework to allow what we need. Cheers, Corey From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 11:04:52 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 03:04:52 -0800 Subject: ubuntuguide.org for Hoary Message-ID: <348bd6da050402030463adba25@mail.gmail.com> So a user just pointed me to: http://ubuntuguide.org/temp/ which is updated for Hoary. However, there is a fairly major bug in it. It basically currently tells people to remove main. The killer is the three dots at the bottom which indicate that the file goes on. Thus some non-technical users will remove main, as I just spent 30 minutes fixing on one poor persons machine. Corey From matthew.east at breathe.com Sat Apr 2 11:09:57 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:09:57 +0100 Subject: Italian translation for about-ubuntu Message-ID: <1112440197.6814.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Please find attached an Italian translation for the aboutubuntu doc, for insertion in svn. I am slightly concerned about the fact that there are now two methods of translation: rosetta and direct in svn, and I don't know what the implications of packaging the docs is going to be. So I'm sending this mail to both lists, so that it can go into svn and into rosetta if necessary. I think that perhaps the two teams can interact to resolve this problem. In rosetta, this document corresponds to review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-2 and review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-4, and will suffice as Italian, Italian (Italy) and Italian (Swiss). It seems I don't have permissions to insert it myself. Matt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-it.po Type: text/x-gettext-translation Size: 12222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 2 11:55:20 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 13:55:20 +0200 Subject: ubuntuguide.org for Hoary In-Reply-To: <348bd6da050402030463adba25@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da050402030463adba25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504021355.24827.sean@inwords.co.za> On Saturday 02 April 2005 13:04, Corey Burger wrote: > http://ubuntuguide.org/temp/ I really wish people would edit the new version is svn. We did loads of work to port the document and use docbook faq format. Seems like we will have to do the same for this new version. I doubt if plovs will want to come back and do it all over again and I am certainly not going to do it. I requested for this many moons ago and my requests were simply ignored. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carlos.perello at canonical.com Sat Apr 2 12:34:59 2005 From: carlos.perello at canonical.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Carlos_Perell=F3_Mar=EDn?=) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 14:34:59 +0200 Subject: Italian translation for about-ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1112440197.6814.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112440197.6814.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <424E9173.4070601@canonical.com> Matthew East wrote: > Please find attached an Italian translation for the aboutubuntu doc, for > insertion in svn. > > I am slightly concerned about the fact that there are now two methods of > translation: rosetta and direct in svn, and I don't know what the > implications of packaging the docs is going to be. So I'm sending this > mail to both lists, so that it can go into svn and into rosetta if > necessary. I think that perhaps the two teams can interact to resolve > this problem. Rosetta starts to be ready now to translate Ubuntu packages and documentation. It's still importing previous translations but we hope it will be all ready soon. The policy will be that if you want to translate anything for Ubuntu, you will need to use Rosetta. Only package maintainers should put translations directly into SVN/ARCH/CVS, translators have two choices: 1.- Use Rosetta directly to translate. 2.- Get .po files from Rosetta, translate them with emacs/kbabel/gtranslator and upload it back into the system. Perhaps the documentation policy will change a bit, need to talk about it with the ubuntu-doc team but take what I said as the general rule for Ubuntu translations. > > In rosetta, this document corresponds to review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-2 and > review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-4, and will suffice as Italian, Italian (Italy) > and Italian (Swiss). It seems I don't have permissions to insert it > myself. Those potemplates will be renamed to another good name later. The automatic import we have is not (yet) so clever at this point. To be able to upload .po files for Ubuntu in Rosetta you need to be a member of one of the Ubuntu Translation Team. Cheers. > > Matt > From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 2 12:27:33 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 14:27:33 +0200 Subject: Italian translation for about-ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1112440197.6814.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112440197.6814.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504021427.39405.sean@inwords.co.za> On Saturday 02 April 2005 13:09, Matthew East wrote: > can go into svn Done -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 13:21:28 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:21:28 +0800 Subject: Tagalog (Filipino) Translation PO file for about-ubuntu Message-ID: Hi Team, Here is the translated po file for about-ubuntu in the Tagalog (Filipino) language. Tagalog (Filipino) is the national language of the Philippines. -- Cheers! Jerome Gotangco Ubuntu Local Community (LoCo) Philippine Team http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PhilippineTeam Lok'tar Ogar! http://loktarogar.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-tl.po Type: application/octet-stream Size: 12754 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 2 17:28:58 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:28:58 +0200 Subject: Tagalog (Filipino) Translation PO file for about-ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504021928.58249.sean@inwords.co.za> On Saturday 02 April 2005 15:21, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > Here is the translated po file for about-ubuntu in the Tagalog > (Filipino) language. Tagalog (Filipino) is the national language of > the Philippines. Thanks Jerome. Do you feel like doing the release notes ;-) -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paroz at email.ch Sat Apr 2 19:15:42 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:15:42 +0200 Subject: Files in common directory Message-ID: <1112469342.4348.20.camel@paroz> When translating the quickguide, i see that there are many strings in external xml files. Here's a .pot that contains string from xml files in common directory. I tried to group strings from several files in a single pot (conventions.xml, copyright.xml, disclaimer.xml, feedback.xml, glossary.xml, legalnotice.xml, publisher.xml). I didn't include licences for now, because it's more sensitive to translate... Thanks for importing it in svn (if you find it's ok). Claude -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: common.pot Type: text/x-gettext-translation-template Size: 11528 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paroz at email.ch Sat Apr 2 19:30:13 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:30:13 +0200 Subject: Files in common directory In-Reply-To: <1112469342.4348.20.camel@paroz> References: <1112469342.4348.20.camel@paroz> Message-ID: <1112470213.4348.23.camel@paroz> Le samedi 02 avril 2005 ? 21:15 +0200, Claude Paroz a ?crit : > When translating the quickguide, i see that there are many strings in > external xml files. > Here's a .pot that contains string from xml files in common directory. I > tried to group strings from several files in a single pot > (conventions.xml, copyright.xml, disclaimer.xml, feedback.xml, > glossary.xml, legalnotice.xml, publisher.xml). > I didn't include licences for now, because it's more sensitive to > translate... > > Thanks for importing it in svn (if you find it's ok). oh, and here's the script (maybe not optimized) to create this common.pot (for the Makefile ?) : xml2pot common/conventions.xml > common.pot xml2pot common/copyright.xml | sed '1,16d' >> common.pot xml2pot common/disclaimer.xml | sed '1,16d' >> common.pot xml2pot common/feedback.xml | sed '1,16d' >> common.pot xml2pot common/glossary.xml | sed '1,16d' >> common.pot xml2pot common/legalnotice.xml | sed '1,16d' >> common.pot xml2pot common/publisher.xml | sed '1,16d' >> common.pot Claude From paroz at email.ch Sat Apr 2 21:29:08 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 23:29:08 +0200 Subject: xml2pot and menus Message-ID: <1112477348.4348.27.camel@paroz> Does someone know why the output of "xml2pot common/menus/accessories.xml" doesn't output anything, except the headers (same with all other xml files in menu folder) ? accessories.xml : Applications Accessories Regards Claude From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 2 21:42:31 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 23:42:31 +0200 Subject: xml2pot and menus In-Reply-To: <1112477348.4348.27.camel@paroz> References: <1112477348.4348.27.camel@paroz> Message-ID: <200504022342.34623.sean@inwords.co.za> On Saturday 02 April 2005 23:29, Claude Paroz wrote: > Does someone know why the output of "xml2pot > common/menus/accessories.xml" doesn't output anything, except the > headers (same with all other xml files in menu folder) ? > > accessories.xml : > > > ? ? Applications > ? ? Accessories > The problem is that the parser.cpp [1] does not provide support for certain elements, in particular inline elements. In a large xml-instance such as a book this makes sense. However, in our context it doesn't. I will create a script to do this for us. [1] http://webcvs.kde.org/kdesdk/poxml/parser.cpp?rev=1.80&view=markup -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffschering at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 23:18:21 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:18:21 -0800 Subject: Web based solutions In-Reply-To: <348bd6da050402014835ab83f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da050402014835ab83f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2005 1:48 AM, Corey Burger wrote: > Sean and I had a good discussion regarding a web-based solution. We > agreed on some general points to continue the discussion with the rest > of the docteam. > > 1. Single source for all docs > Unify wiki and other sources into a single entry point. > help.ubuntu.com was suggested. > > 2. All docs editable at that source > > 3. All docs editable in an offline way, as is already happening > > 4. Allow easy interlanguage links for docs > See what wikipedia does with interwiki links, something similar or better > > 5. All docs remain in a form of version control > > 6. System allows easy creation from text to PDF, PS, HTML, etc. > That all sounds good. I would like to point out that the idea of having wiki pages with docbook markup (instead of Moin) meets all of the parameters you mention above. Plus, since it's a wiki, it allows anybody to edit from anywhere; and since it's in docbook, it can be packaged for purposes other than web viewing. Whenever someone changes the docbook source for a wiki page, an automated process commits the changes to svn. The docbook source page is in effect, as Sean put it, another user/author on the team. Nothing prevents authors who are more technologically adept from checking the docs out of the repos and working offline. There is certainly a lot of technology involved in the docbook wiki idea, but it's all in the background where it should be and out of the writer's sight. The docbook wiki idea allows writers to do what they do best: write. IMHO, the fewer "non-writer" skills that writers have to learn in order to write, the better. Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From jgotangco at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 02:55:06 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:55:06 +0800 Subject: Tagalog (Filipino) Translation PO file for about-ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504021928.58249.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504021928.58249.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: Release notes, hopefully will be finished tonight :D Jerome On Apr 3, 2005 1:28 AM, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Saturday 02 April 2005 15:21, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > > Here is the translated po file for about-ubuntu in the Tagalog > > (Filipino) language. Tagalog (Filipino) is the national language of > > the Philippines. > > Thanks Jerome. Do you feel like doing the release notes ;-) -- Cheers! Jerome Gotangco Ubuntu Local Community (LoCo) Philippine Team http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PhilippineTeam Lok'tar Ogar! http://loktarogar.blogspot.com From daf at canonical.com Fri Apr 1 18:49:50 2005 From: daf at canonical.com (Dafydd Harries) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:49:50 +0100 Subject: Announcing Ubuntu Language Teams Message-ID: <20050401184950.GB30057@muse.19inch.net> Hi translators! We are almost ready to handle Ubuntu translations through Rosetta! As this announcement is being sent, all PO files in Ubuntu are being imported into Rosetta. This import process will continue over the next few days. One of the final steps in getting ready is the creation of Ubuntu Language Teams. We will accept new translations from anyone, but only members of the Ubuntu Language Teams will be able to edit and correct existing translations. How to join an Ubuntu Language Team: * Go to this page to see a list of language teams: https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/?searchfor=teamsonly&name=ubuntu+translators If you don't see a team for your language, send an email to rosetta at ubuntu.com asking for it. * Select your team from the list of teams you will see in that page. * Click over the "Join" link besides the "Active Members" entry. * Confirm the subscription. That's it! Expect another announcement soon about how to get started translating Ubuntu in Rosetta. NOTES: * The Ubuntu Code of Conduct applies to translators too, so please, read it if you are interested in working on Ubuntu translations: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct * Your team membership will be revoked if you abuse your position as an Ubuntu translator. * Software translation is a challenging process, we ask that you join the Ubuntu Translation Team only if you have some previous experience translating software into your language. * We hope to bring the same spirit of collaboration to translation as we have in the other aspects of the Ubuntu project, so please be prepared to work as a team. We encourage the use of mailing lists to coordinate translations. If there is no mailing list for your language, just ask our mailing list master at mailman-admin at lists.ubuntu.com. You can check for a mailing list here: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ Regards, -- Dafydd From rafael.carreras at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 16:49:55 2005 From: rafael.carreras at gmail.com (Rafael Carreras) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:49:55 +0200 Subject: Catalan translation for about-ubuntu and release-notes Message-ID: <200504031849.56124.rafael.carreras@gmail.com> Please find attached a Catalan translation for the about-ubuntu and release-notes docs, for insertion in svn, if it is possible. In time, I will continue with doc translation through Rosetta. -- Rafael Carreras rafael.carreras_at_gmail.com http://caliu.info http://www.lafarga.org/user/view/222 https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CatalanTeam -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-ca.po Type: application/x-gettext Size: 12418 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-ca.po Type: application/x-gettext Size: 35586 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frederik at dannemare.net Mon Apr 4 01:17:32 2005 From: frederik at dannemare.net (Frederik Dannemare) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 03:17:32 +0200 Subject: So the wiki was rolled back to April 1st. Why? Message-ID: <200504040317.32913.frederik@dannemare.net> And can I please have these pages restored (I assume there's a nightly backup or something)? Thanks, -- Frederik Dannemare | mailto:frederik at dannemare.net http://frederik.dannemare.net | http://www.linuxworlddomination.dk Key fingerprint = 30CF 7AD3 17D9 1A63 A730 ECA6 0D4C 2C97 9D9A 238E From jgotangco at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 01:37:12 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome S. Gotangco) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:37:12 +0800 Subject: Patch for about-ubuntu-tl.xml Message-ID: <1112578633.9637.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi all, I noticed that the xml from about-ubuntu-tl.xml is pretty messed up and won't render correctly in yelp so I tried to validate it and saw some tag errors. Do things sometimes happen after submitting a po file to generate an xml? Or does the malformed xml is caused by a malformed po? Here's the patch btw. -- Jerome S. Gotangco WWW:http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/JeromeGotangco Email:jgotangco at gmail.com GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu Y!M: jsgotangco IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PhilippineTeam -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: aboutubuntu.diff Type: text/x-patch Size: 13707 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From george.deka at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 03:21:17 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:21:17 +1000 Subject: DevApp Content Life-cycle [was: Re: Wiki ideas] In-Reply-To: <424E49E0.4030900@trickie.org> References: <42492FE0.5030006@canonical.com> <200504011355.42511.sean@inwords.co.za> <424DE4F7.7040404@trickie.org> <200504020853.17977.sean@inwords.co.za> <424E49E0.4030900@trickie.org> Message-ID: <72003cb70504032021731c98a1@mail.gmail.com> If it means what we need does not exist so be it, cannoncial may be willing to sponsor the development or put up a bounty. Regardless we need something that we can work with, which will make everyone happy. On Apr 2, 2005 5:29 PM, Nick Loeve wrote: > Sean Wheller wrote: > > On Saturday 02 April 2005 02:19, Nick Loeve wrote: > > > >>Sean Wheller wrote: > >> > >>>On Friday 01 April 2005 11:11, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > >>> > >>>>Let's see what we can get done at UDU, but in parallel, let's see what > >>>>you guys come up with. > >>> > >>>Hello Mark, Corey, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> - Surely security can be achieved with other technologies - i have had > >> > >> a lot of experience with PHP and would be willing to help share my > >> experience with PHP and security issues > > > > > > I think we are in the right here, but it is also hard to change perceptions. > > If James and team don't want then I kinda get the feeling that we could be > > fighting a losing battle unless we host externally. > > Agreed, and i do not really mind at all. I love most of the technology > that Ubuntu and it's developers are pushing and would like to become > more proficient using those tools. > > > > > > >> - I do not think that a web based solution is the way to go for > >> everything. I know that for a large document (or even for something > >> as big as the quickguide) it is more manageable if editing is > >> offline) > > > > > > Agreed. As I see it, a web-based front end is just one interface. Under the > > objective I never mentioned that the only editing interface would be > > Web-based. I do state that the Authoring repos is a working copy of svn. The > > way I see it is that we will merge changes from this working copy into our > > svn. Think of the web-app as just another user/author in the team. Just an > > author on steroids because it is actually the work on many more people. > > Ok, that makes sense. > > > > > The nature of the solution I suggested in that it enforces structure from the > > content to the organization of the information architecture. This makes it > > far more managable than what we have now. > > > > > >>And after all that, to get back to another of Sean's point, those > >>working on this project will not be creating documentation. Maybe what > >>we need is a seperate subteam 'Ubuntu Documentation Technology Team' or > >>something. That way energy is not being sapped from the documenation > >>effort, but those that want to contribute to both seperate ideas > >>(creating docs, creating a system for creating docs) are free to do so. > >> > >>At present the doc team is pretty small, so i do not know if there is > >>enough man power to create another seperate team, but over time the > >>'Ubuntu Documentation Technology Team' could attract existing or new > >>Ubutnu developers, and build closer ties with those that are in the know > >>in regards to building software for Ubuntu, deploying software for > >>Ubutnu and maintaining software Ubutnu. > >> > > > > If I understand Mark correctly, he is saying let the doc team forge an idea > > and present it, then he will muster devels to support it. From our part we > > need to to the investigation. I suggest we create a specification document > > based on our resarch and use that to present. Once devels get involved we can > > assist in ways we can, if we wish. > > Ok great. I originally wanted to do some development for Ubuntu, but got > into the doc team because (with no experience of Debian development etc) > the barriers to entry were lower. I would really love to be part of any > development for this idea, but have also enjoyed and want to keep > enjoying working with the team on documenation and discussing ideas > surrounding the generation of documentation. > > > > > I will start preparing a basic document for us to collaborate on. In the > > interim I think it would be productive if people search for solutions and > > post links to the list under this thread. We can then discuss each solution > > and narrow down the list to the top 3 candidates. > > Agreed. Thats a great idea, thanks for taking on the setup. > > > Cheers, > trickie (Nick Loeve) > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > -- Get Firefox! From jalrnc at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 04:05:15 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:05:15 -0400 Subject: portuguese translations Message-ID: <8e6ff2e305040321055961d3ce@mail.gmail.com> I'm attaching the -pt.po translations for AboutUbuntu and ReleaseNotes. By the way, the ubuntu wiki seems to be messed up, I've lost all changes from the last few days... do you know what's going on? Regards, Jo?o -- http://www.ubuntu.pt.org http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PortugueseTeam -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-pt.po Type: application/octet-stream Size: 13358 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-pt.po Type: application/octet-stream Size: 36378 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 4 05:27:50 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:27:50 +0200 Subject: Catalan translation for about-ubuntu and release-notes In-Reply-To: <200504031849.56124.rafael.carreras@gmail.com> References: <200504031849.56124.rafael.carreras@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504040727.50644.sean@inwords.co.za> On Sunday 03 April 2005 18:49, Rafael Carreras wrote: > Please find attached a Catalan translation for the about-ubuntu and > release-notes docs, for insertion in svn, if it is possible. > > In time, I will continue with doc translation through Rosetta. Rafael, Thanks for these translations. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 4 05:38:11 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:38:11 +0200 Subject: Fwd: Re: portuguese translations Message-ID: <200504040738.15232.sean@inwords.co.za> Sorry forgot to include the list ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: portuguese translations Date: Monday 04 April 2005 07:25 From: Sean Wheller To: Jo?o Cruz On Monday 04 April 2005 06:05, Jo?o Cruz wrote: > I'm attaching the -pt.po translations for AboutUbuntu and ReleaseNotes. > > By the way, the ubuntu wiki seems to be messed up, I've lost all > changes from the last few days... do you know what's going on? Hello Jo?o, Many thanks for the PO files. They have been commited. Regarding wiki, I have no idea. Anyone else know what is wrong with it. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 4 05:41:44 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:41:44 +0200 Subject: portuguese translations In-Reply-To: <8e6ff2e305040321055961d3ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e6ff2e305040321055961d3ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504040741.44846.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 04 April 2005 06:05, Jo?o Cruz wrote: > I'm attaching the -pt.po translations for AboutUbuntu and ReleaseNotes. > > By the way, the ubuntu wiki seems to be messed up, I've lost all > changes from the last few days... do you know what's going on? > > Regards, > Jo?o Hello there seems to be a problem with about-ubuntu-pt.po The error is: po2xml about-ubuntu.xml about-ubuntu-pt.po > about-ubuntu-pt.xml exception: expecting ' ', found 'F' Please can you fix and resend. Thanks, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 4 05:57:34 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:57:34 +0200 Subject: Patch for about-ubuntu-tl.xml In-Reply-To: <1112578633.9637.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112578633.9637.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504040757.38828.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 04 April 2005 03:37, you wrote: > Hi all, > > I noticed that the xml from about-ubuntu-tl.xml is pretty messed up and > won't render correctly in yelp so I tried to validate it and saw some > tag errors. Do things sometimes happen after submitting a po file to > generate an xml? Or does the malformed xml is caused by a malformed po? > > Here's the patch btw. Hello Jerome, When I try apply your patch I am getting errors: patch -p1 about-ubuntu-it.xml about-ubuntu-it.diff patching file about-ubuntu-it.xml Hunk #1 FAILED at 14. 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file about-ubuntu-it.xml.rej sean at sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk/aboutubuntu> patch -p0 about-ubuntu-it.xml about-ubuntu-it.diff patching file about-ubuntu-it.xml Hunk #1 FAILED at 14. 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file about-ubuntu-it.xml.rej sean at sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk/aboutubuntu> So I reverted back to HEAD and found the document to be well-formed and valid. Yelp on the HEAD copy works on two of my tests systems. So I have not applied the patch. If anyone else has a problem opening about-ubuntu-it.xml in yelp. Please let me know. Thanks, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 4 06:10:23 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:10:23 +0200 Subject: make-pot and make-po Message-ID: <200504040810.26717.sean@inwords.co.za> Hello, I have added two scripts to svn make-pot This makes POT files for EN documents. The script can take a $ on the prompt. If no $ then the modules are taken from the script and placed in $module variable. If there are changes it updates the POT with msgmerge. If there are no changes it makes no changes. Please can others review this script. At present it will only run over userguide/ module. This is intentional for testing only. I have also added make-po. This script does not work yet. I am having problems with it. Perhaps others can take a look. I have commented various attempts in the same file. When I do the commands at the prompt manually I am able to make the process work. But when I use it from the script it fails. Thanks, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 06:23:12 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome S. Gotangco) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:23:12 +0800 Subject: Patch for about-ubuntu-tl.xml In-Reply-To: <200504040757.38828.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1112578633.9637.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504040757.38828.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1112595792.16619.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Sean, the patch is for about-ubuntu-tl.xml (Tagalog/Filipino) Jerome On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 07:57 +0200, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Monday 04 April 2005 03:37, you wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I noticed that the xml from about-ubuntu-tl.xml is pretty messed up and > > won't render correctly in yelp so I tried to validate it and saw some > > tag errors. Do things sometimes happen after submitting a po file to > > generate an xml? Or does the malformed xml is caused by a malformed po? > > > > Here's the patch btw. > > Hello Jerome, > > When I try apply your patch I am getting errors: > > patch -p1 about-ubuntu-it.xml about-ubuntu-it.diff > patching file about-ubuntu-it.xml > Hunk #1 FAILED at 14. > 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file about-ubuntu-it.xml.rej > sean at sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk/aboutubuntu> > > patch -p0 about-ubuntu-it.xml about-ubuntu-it.diff > patching file about-ubuntu-it.xml > Hunk #1 FAILED at 14. > 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file about-ubuntu-it.xml.rej > sean at sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk/aboutubuntu> > > So I reverted back to HEAD and found the document to be well-formed and valid. > > Yelp on the HEAD copy works on two of my tests systems. So I have not applied > the patch. If anyone else has a problem opening about-ubuntu-it.xml in yelp. > Please let me know. > > Thanks, > -- Jerome S. Gotangco WWW:http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/JeromeGotangco Email:jgotangco at gmail.com GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu Y!M: jsgotangco IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PhilippineTeam -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jalrnc at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 06:23:41 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:23:41 -0400 Subject: portuguese translations In-Reply-To: <200504040741.44846.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <8e6ff2e305040321055961d3ce@mail.gmail.com> <200504040741.44846.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <8e6ff2e305040323236eeb40cc@mail.gmail.com> Sorry about that, here is the corrected version. I've also done some minor cleanup on release-notes-pt.po Jo?o On Apr 4, 2005 1:41 AM, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Monday 04 April 2005 06:05, Jo?o Cruz wrote: > > I'm attaching the -pt.po translations for AboutUbuntu and ReleaseNotes. > > > > By the way, the ubuntu wiki seems to be messed up, I've lost all > > changes from the last few days... do you know what's going on? > > > > Regards, > > Jo?o > > Hello there seems to be a problem with about-ubuntu-pt.po > > The error is: > po2xml about-ubuntu.xml about-ubuntu-pt.po > about-ubuntu-pt.xml > exception: expecting ' > ', found 'F' > > Please can you fix and resend. > > Thanks, > > -- > Sean Wheller > Technical Author > sean at inwords.co.za > http://www.inwords.co.za > Registered Linux User #375355 > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-pt.po Type: application/octet-stream Size: 13364 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-pt.po Type: application/octet-stream Size: 36370 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ubuntu at trickie.org Mon Apr 4 06:35:04 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:35:04 +1000 Subject: make-pot and make-po In-Reply-To: <200504040810.26717.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504040810.26717.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <4250E018.7070707@trickie.org> Sean Wheller wrote: > Hello, > > I have added two scripts to svn > > make-pot > This makes POT files for EN documents. The script can take a $ on the prompt. > If no $ then the modules are taken from the script and placed in $module > variable. If there are changes it updates the POT with msgmerge. If there are > no changes it makes no changes. > > Please can others review this script. At present it will only run over > userguide/ module. This is intentional for testing only. > > I have also added make-po. This script does not work yet. I am having problems > with it. Perhaps others can take a look. I have commented various attempts in > the same file. When I do the commands at the prompt manually I am able to > make the process work. But when I use it from the script it fails. > > Thanks, > > Cool I'll take a look, and see if i can help. Sorry i have not had time to take these processes any further (work is hell at the moment!). Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 4 06:27:42 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:27:42 +0200 Subject: make-pot and make-po In-Reply-To: <4250E018.7070707@trickie.org> References: <200504040810.26717.sean@inwords.co.za> <4250E018.7070707@trickie.org> Message-ID: <200504040827.42422.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 04 April 2005 08:35, Nick Loeve wrote: > Sorry i have not had time to take these processes any further (work is > hell at the moment!). No worries. Give it a bash and see what happens. I have also asked Corey and Jerome to take a look. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 4 11:49:34 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:49:34 +0100 Subject: So the wiki was rolled back to April 1st. Why? In-Reply-To: <200504040317.32913.frederik@dannemare.net> References: <200504040317.32913.frederik@dannemare.net> Message-ID: <1112615374.6890.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Frederik, An accident has occured on the wiki. However a backup is present and the changes made since April 1 will be restored and merged soon. Hope this helps! Matt On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 03:17 +0200, Frederik Dannemare wrote: > And can I please have these pages restored (I assume there's a nightly > backup or something)? > > > > > > Thanks, > -- > Frederik Dannemare | mailto:frederik at dannemare.net > http://frederik.dannemare.net | http://www.linuxworlddomination.dk > Key fingerprint = 30CF 7AD3 17D9 1A63 A730 ECA6 0D4C 2C97 9D9A 238E > From frederik at dannemare.net Mon Apr 4 12:05:44 2005 From: frederik at dannemare.net (Frederik Dannemare) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:05:44 +0200 Subject: So the wiki was rolled back to April 1st. Why? In-Reply-To: <1112615374.6890.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200504040317.32913.frederik@dannemare.net> <1112615374.6890.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504041405.45125.frederik@dannemare.net> On Monday 04 April 2005 13:49, Matthew East wrote: > Hi Frederik, > > An accident has occured on the wiki. However a backup is present and > the changes made since April 1 will be restored and merged soon. Hope > this helps! Excellent. Thanks for the update, Matt. -- Frederik Dannemare | mailto:frederik at dannemare.net http://frederik.dannemare.net | http://www.linuxworlddomination.dk Key fingerprint = 30CF 7AD3 17D9 1A63 A730 ECA6 0D4C 2C97 9D9A 238E From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 4 12:11:24 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:11:24 +0100 Subject: german translations of ubuntu Message-ID: <1112616684.6890.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi there, After a discussion with seb128 and pitti, it has been agreed that the docteam will make xml files of the aboutubuntu, releasenotes and quickguide translated documents and then seb128 and pitti will package them separately for release with hoary. we have most of the documents in our svn repository but I believe the german translations are in rosetta. Would you arrange for them to be transferred? (p.s. laura are they finished?) They say they need them today for packaging. Many thanks, Matt From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 4 13:23:37 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:23:37 +0100 Subject: german translations of ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1112616684.6890.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112616684.6890.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112621017.6829.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> > we have most of the documents in our svn repository but I believe the > german translations are in rosetta. Would you arrange for them to be > transferred? (p.s. laura are they finished?) attached is release-notes-de.po M -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-de.po Type: text/x-gettext-translation Size: 36590 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 4 13:24:50 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:24:50 +0100 Subject: german translations of ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1112621017.6829.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112616684.6890.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112621017.6829.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112621091.6829.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 14:23 +0100, Matthew East wrote: > > we have most of the documents in our svn repository but I believe the > > german translations are in rosetta. Would you arrange for them to be > > transferred? (p.s. laura are they finished?) > > attached is release-notes-de.po attached is about-ubuntu-de.po M -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-de.po Type: text/x-gettext-translation Size: 14094 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 4 19:17:37 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:17:37 +0200 Subject: make-po Message-ID: <200504042117.40991.sean@inwords.co.za> Hi, Just committed new make-po script The script now * Tests integrity of po file * creates xml from po file in nn.xml.new * creates diff between current nn-xml and nn.xml.new to nn.xml.diff * patches only files with diff * cleans up the mess created in the directory testing and patching is welcomed. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 4 20:23:03 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:23:03 +0100 Subject: de translations Message-ID: <1112646183.10563.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Attached an amended releasenotes: please build the xml to check: rosetta has inserted some weird characters. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-de.po Type: text/x-gettext-translation Size: 36188 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 4 21:47:45 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:47:45 +0100 Subject: Italian translation for about-ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504021427.39405.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1112440197.6814.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504021427.39405.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1112651265.11633.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-02 at 14:27 +0200, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Saturday 02 April 2005 13:09, Matthew East wrote: > > can go into svn Here is release-notes-it.po Hope its not too late to be packaged :) (did someone other than enrico learn the packaging process that he did today?) M -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-it.po Type: text/x-gettext-translation Size: 33526 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 4 21:42:58 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:42:58 +0200 Subject: Italian translation for about-ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1112651265.11633.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112440197.6814.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504021427.39405.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112651265.11633.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504042343.02472.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 04 April 2005 23:47, Matthew East wrote: > Here is release-notes-it.po > > Hope its not too late to be packaged :) > > (did someone other than enrico learn the packaging process that he did > today?) Done. Thanks a million. It would not help since only enrico can upload. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 4 22:02:12 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:02:12 +0100 Subject: Italian translation for about-ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504042343.02472.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1112440197.6814.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504021427.39405.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112651265.11633.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504042343.02472.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1112652132.11744.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 23:42 +0200, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Monday 04 April 2005 23:47, Matthew East wrote: > > Here is release-notes-it.po > > > > Hope its not too late to be packaged :) > > > > (did someone other than enrico learn the packaging process that he did > > today?) > > Done. Thanks a million. > > It would not help since only enrico can upload. Hmm, we can always ask someone to upload for us if he isn't back before release. He said something in the channel today about packaging in his absence, but I wasn't paying attention because I don't know the first thing about packaging... x M From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 4 23:32:40 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 00:32:40 +0100 Subject: rosettawishlist Message-ID: Hi docteam/rosettateam After a productive discussion in irc today, Carlos suggested compiling an email for what needs to be looked at re: Docteam/Rosetta interaction, to be discussed at UbuntuDownUnder, especially since most of the Docteam will not be present there. Similarly, in a few emails on the Rosetta list, Daffyd suggested emailing with suggestions for improvements to be made to Rosetta. I suggest a wiki page for these things: it is more flexible and we can amend/comment on each other's thoughts as we go along. I've created one at: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RosettaWishList Hope this catches on! thanks for your attention/ideas/feedback Matt From jgotangco at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 02:52:55 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:52:55 +0800 Subject: Tagalog (tl/Filipino) translation of release-notes Message-ID: Hope it still can be included! This is the tagalog (tl) translation for release-notes -- Cheers! Jerome Gotangco Ubuntu Local Community (LoCo) Philippine Team http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PhilippineTeam Lok'tar Ogar! http://loktarogar.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-tl.po Type: text/x-gettext-translation Size: 36212 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 05:37:09 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:37:09 +0200 Subject: Tagalog (tl/Filipino) translation of release-notes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504050737.13957.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 04:52, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > Hope it still can be included! This is the tagalog (tl) translation > for release-notes Hello Jerome, Thanks committed. Following errors occur msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-tl.po: some header fields still have the initial default value msgfmt: found 1 fatal error -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 05:49:52 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:49:52 +0200 Subject: Translation Problems Message-ID: <200504050749.52533.sean@inwords.co.za> Hello All, Following is the output from make po. Please can people check the po files and try to eliminate the fatal errors. Also any files with fuzyy header. The fuzzy can be stripped. Thanks. aboutubuntu releasenotes quickguide 24 translated messages. msgfmt: aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-de.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this 24 translated messages. 24 translated messages. 24 translated messages. msgfmt: aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-pt.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this 24 translated messages. msgfmt: aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-tl.po: some header fields still have the initial default value msgfmt: aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-tl.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this msgfmt: found 1 fatal error 24 translated messages. 127 translated messages. 127 translated messages. msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-fr.po: some header fields still have the initial default value msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-fr.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this msgfmt: found 1 fatal error 124 translated messages. msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-pt.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this 127 translated messages. msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-tl.po: some header fields still have the initial default value msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-tl.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this msgfmt: found 1 fatal error 127 translated messages. 533 translated messages, 1 fuzzy translation. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 06:41:23 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:41:23 +0800 Subject: Patches for Tagalog PO files Message-ID: Fixed: 1. fuzzy headers (deleted) 2. default values (changed) Sean, I think it would be much better if we can tell (via wiki or this list) current and potential translators what to do in the the initial po files so we can avoid problems as seen in your make po output email. -- Cheers! Jerome Gotangco Ubuntu Local Community (LoCo) Philippine Team http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PhilippineTeam Lok'tar Ogar! http://loktarogar.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-tl.diff Type: text/x-patch Size: 3140 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-tl.diff Type: text/x-patch Size: 976 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ubuntu at trickie.org Tue Apr 5 06:51:28 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 16:51:28 +1000 Subject: Patches for Tagalog PO files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42523570.1040402@trickie.org> Hey all, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > Fixed: > 1. fuzzy headers (deleted) > 2. default values (changed) > > Sean, I think it would be much better if we can tell (via wiki or this > list) current and potential translators what to do in the the initial > po files so we can avoid problems as seen in your make po output > email. I agree! I do not know where the discussion of xml2po vs xml2pot/po2xml has gone (i haven't had much time to contribute lately), but it and the basics of what is required to make valid .po files, should definately be added to the doc team processes currently documented on the wiki. Maybe once we all get a chance to stop and take a breath this could be written up. I do not know if there is much more time left to add translations? Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 07:07:31 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:07:31 +0200 Subject: Patches for Tagalog PO files In-Reply-To: <42523570.1040402@trickie.org> References: <42523570.1040402@trickie.org> Message-ID: <200504050907.35149.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 08:51, Nick Loeve wrote: > Maybe once we all get a chance to stop and take a breath this could be > written up. I do not know if there is much more time left to add > translations? OK I will add it and post it. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 5 08:22:47 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:22:47 +1000 Subject: More about the wiki problem Message-ID: <20050405082247.GE8507@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> The rollback of the wiki to April 1 was announced in this mail to ubuntu-users and ubuntu-devel: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-April/006557.html The author of that mail would like to be contacted if you made a particularly major change that you would like extracted. -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 5 08:31:59 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:31:59 +1000 Subject: WIKI HICKUP NOTICE In-Reply-To: <42513D33.6060900@gotadsl.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050405083159.GF8507@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Hi Henrik, Thanks for this notice about the wiki. Would it be possible in future if there is a wiki hiccup to notify ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com ? A lot of people here seemed to be wondering about what happened. :) Thanks, Mary Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > Hello, > > As some of you have noticed, there has been a hickup in the Ubuntu wiki, > with 2 days worth of updates seemingly going lost. Due to some serious > inconsistencies in the Plone data file we had to rebuild the structures, > and in the process the data was set back two days. The changes that were > made in the meantime do exist in a backup and we will try to extract > those today and tomorrow. We can get the data out, but it's value is > obviously reduced as time passes and the current wiki is updated further. > > If someone knows that they made major updates between Apr. 1st and Apr. > 3rd that are now missing, please email me and I will fish them out > specifically and attempt to merge them in sensibly. > > I am sorry for any confusion and inconvenience this will have caused. > > - Henrik > > > From jgotangco at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 09:03:57 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:03:57 +0800 Subject: Patches for other PO files Message-ID: Just some patches for the po files of de, pt fr, and pt. make po in my wc gives out no issues now and i hope this helps. Jerome -- Cheers! Jerome Gotangco Ubuntu Local Community (LoCo) Philippine Team http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PhilippineTeam Lok'tar Ogar! http://loktarogar.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: release-notes-pt.diff Type: text/x-patch Size: 353 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carlos.perello at canonical.com Tue Apr 5 09:28:47 2005 From: carlos.perello at canonical.com (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Carlos_Perell=F3_Mar=EDn?=) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:28:47 +0200 Subject: german translations of ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1112616684.6890.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112616684.6890.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42525A4F.1090407@canonical.com> Matthew East wrote: > Hi there, Hi > > After a discussion with seb128 and pitti, it has been agreed that the > docteam will make xml files of the aboutubuntu, releasenotes and > quickguide translated documents and then seb128 and pitti will package > them separately for release with hoary. > > we have most of the documents in our svn repository but I believe the > german translations are in rosetta. Would you arrange for them to be > transferred? (p.s. laura are they finished?) I suppose I'm late here, but you can get the .po from Rosetta from URLs like: https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-2/de/po > > They say they need them today for packaging. > > Many thanks, Matt > Cheers. From paroz at email.ch Tue Apr 5 09:35:06 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:35:06 +0200 Subject: Still a patch... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112693706.8337.3.camel@paroz> The quick-guide-fr.po had still two errors. Here is the patch. Claude -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: quick-guide-fr-po.diff Type: text/x-patch Size: 3773 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 09:33:56 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:33:56 +0200 Subject: Still a patch... In-Reply-To: <1112693706.8337.3.camel@paroz> References: <1112693706.8337.3.camel@paroz> Message-ID: <200504051133.59819.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 11:35, Claude Paroz wrote: > The quick-guide-fr.po had still two errors. > Here is the patch. For some reason patches for po files are making problems. Can anyone tell me. Can a po file be patched. Claude just send me the po file for now Thanks -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 09:35:26 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:35:26 +0200 Subject: german translations of ubuntu In-Reply-To: <42525A4F.1090407@canonical.com> References: <1112616684.6890.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <42525A4F.1090407@canonical.com> Message-ID: <200504051135.27063.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 11:28, Carlos Perell? Mar?n wrote: > Matthew East wrote: > > After a discussion with seb128 and pitti, it has been agreed that the > > docteam will make xml files of the aboutubuntu, releasenotes and > > quickguide translated documents and then seb128 and pitti will package > > them separately for release with hoary. > > > > we have most of the documents in our svn repository but I believe the > > german translations are in rosetta. Would you arrange for them to be > > transferred? (p.s. laura are they finished?) > > I suppose I'm late here, but you can get the .po from Rosetta from URLs > like: > > https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pot >s/review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-2/de/po Thanks we got the de file. Will keep this in mind for future. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From squareyes at optusnet.com.au Tue Apr 5 09:50:24 2005 From: squareyes at optusnet.com.au (squareyes) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:20:24 +0930 Subject: rosettawishlist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42525F60.1010606@optusnet.com.au> matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > Hi docteam/rosettateam > After a productive discussion in irc today, Carlos suggested compiling > an email for what needs to be looked at re: Docteam/Rosetta > interaction, to be discussed at UbuntuDownUnder, especially since most > of the Docteam will not be present there. > Similarly, in a few emails on the Rosetta list, Daffyd suggested > emailing with suggestions for improvements to be made to Rosetta. > I suggest a wiki page for these things: it is more flexible and we can > amend/comment on each other's thoughts as we go along. I've created > one at: > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RosettaWishList > Hope this catches on! > thanks for your attention/ideas/feedback > Matt > Hi all, I can't speak the language, but I do have a collection of 6 Khmer (Cambodian) fonts, all work with "The Gimp" Have a keyboard diagram somewhere, will look for it. Chuoktip.ttf Ekreach.ttf Lumphat.ttf Taprom.ttf Toukmeas.ttf Tuolkork.ttf total 313KB If they are of any value. Contact off list is fine. Take Care Winton From paroz at email.ch Tue Apr 5 10:09:19 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:09:19 +0200 Subject: Patch, patch, patch... In-Reply-To: <1112693706.8337.3.camel@paroz> References: <1112693706.8337.3.camel@paroz> Message-ID: <1112695759.8337.11.camel@paroz> Here is the patch for release-notes-fr.po Claude -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-fr-po.diff Type: text/x-patch Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 5 12:57:27 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:57:27 +0100 Subject: replacement about-ubuntu-de.po Message-ID: <1112705847.7115.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hopefully this sorts out problems with validation for this one. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-de.po Type: text/x-gettext-translation Size: 14055 bytes Desc: not available URL: From henrik at gotadsl.co.uk Tue Apr 5 08:40:08 2005 From: henrik at gotadsl.co.uk (Henrik Nilsen Omma) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:40:08 +0100 Subject: WIKI HICKUP NOTICE In-Reply-To: <20050405083159.GF8507@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050405083159.GF8507@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <42524EE8.8030407@gotadsl.co.uk> Hi Mary, Thank you for the advice. Yes I will keep that in mind. Hopefully we have learned our lessons now so this won't happen in the future. Again, those who have specific pages missing, please contact me and I will fish them out. And again sorry for the disruption this has caused to your work :-( Best wishes, Henrik Mary Gardiner wrote: >Hi Henrik, > >Thanks for this notice about the wiki. Would it be possible in future if >there is a wiki hiccup to notify ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com ? A lot of >people here seemed to be wondering about what happened. :) > >Thanks, > >Mary > >Henrik Nilsen Omma wrote: > > >>Hello, >> >>As some of you have noticed, there has been a hickup in the Ubuntu wiki, >>with 2 days worth of updates seemingly going lost. Due to some serious >>inconsistencies in the Plone data file we had to rebuild the structures, >>and in the process the data was set back two days. The changes that were >>made in the meantime do exist in a backup and we will try to extract >>those today and tomorrow. We can get the data out, but it's value is >>obviously reduced as time passes and the current wiki is updated further. >> >>If someone knows that they made major updates between Apr. 1st and Apr. >>3rd that are now missing, please email me and I will fish them out >>specifically and attempt to merge them in sensibly. >> >>I am sorry for any confusion and inconvenience this will have caused. >> >>- Henrik >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From qgil at interactors.coop Tue Apr 5 11:42:19 2005 From: qgil at interactors.coop (Quim Gil) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:42:19 +0200 Subject: rosettawishlist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4252799B.7000806@interactors.coop> I've got a long list of possible features for Rosetta. It was done a couple of months ago and maybe some of the points are already accomplished or simply out of the current plans. Do you want me to put it in the wiki anyway? The major structural problems I see in Rosetta are: - Relation between upstream and other spaces of translation: this is being discussed regularly. Hopefully we are going o find the perfect solution, otherwise Rosetta may be perceived as intrusive and more a nuisance than a help by the current organized translation teams. - Permissions, revisions, CVS, hierarchy of translators: this is also being discussed. If this doesn't work probably Rosetta won't work efficiently, so even the convinced translators will stop using it and going back to their previous routines, leaving Rosetta as an internal tool to develop Ubuntu. - Language-centered design. I'm not sure whether this has been discussed here. Currently Rosetta has only an application-centered design: you select an application and you can see in how many languages is being translated, in which percentages and so on. While this is useful for tool and distro developers, the translators themselves use to work from a language perspective: I'm a Catalan translator, I participate in a common effort to translate software into Catalan and I will help where help is needed. Today there is no way to see the state of the translation in a single language, you need to go package by package. Having a language-centered design, compatible to the current app-centered, it will be easier to find missing translations and to concentrate where more effort needs to be concentrated. Considering that generally the big translation projects are done by organized teams specializing in one language, I think the language-centered design is something key for the success of Rosetta. Quim matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > Hi docteam/rosettateam > After a productive discussion in irc today, Carlos suggested compiling > an email for what needs to be looked at re: Docteam/Rosetta interaction, > to be discussed at UbuntuDownUnder, especially since most of the Docteam > will not be present there. > Similarly, in a few emails on the Rosetta list, Daffyd suggested > emailing with suggestions for improvements to be made to Rosetta. > I suggest a wiki page for these things: it is more flexible and we can > amend/comment on each other's thoughts as we go along. I've created one at: > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RosettaWishList > Hope this catches on! > thanks for your attention/ideas/feedback > Matt > -- \|/ interactors | qgil arroba interactors.coop \|/ |_ activant xarxes | http://interactors.coop \|/ |_ activando redes | http://desdeamericaconamor.org / |_ activating networks -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 5 13:09:55 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:09:55 +0100 Subject: replacement about-ubuntu-de.po In-Reply-To: <1112705847.7115.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112705847.7115.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112706595.7115.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 13:57 +0100, Matthew East wrote: > Hopefully this sorts out problems with validation for this one. Ditto for this release-notes-pt.xml The outstanding xml file that doesn't validate is release-notes-tl.xml but I don't have time to look at it right now, have to get back to studying. M -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-pt.po Type: text/x-gettext-translation Size: 36361 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 13:00:10 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:00:10 +0200 Subject: replacement about-ubuntu-de.po In-Reply-To: <1112705847.7115.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112705847.7115.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504051500.13710.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 14:57, Matthew East wrote: > Hopefully this sorts out problems with validation for this one. Done and fixed -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 13:09:38 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:09:38 +0200 Subject: replacement about-ubuntu-de.po In-Reply-To: <1112706595.7115.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112705847.7115.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112706595.7115.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504051509.39136.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 15:09, Matthew East wrote: > Ditto for this release-notes-pt.xml > > The outstanding xml file that doesn't validate is release-notes-tl.xml > but I don't have time to look at it right now, have to get back to > studying. OK thanks pt now validates -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 5 13:33:10 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:33:10 +0100 Subject: replacement about-ubuntu-de.po In-Reply-To: <200504051509.39136.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1112705847.7115.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1112706595.7115.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504051509.39136.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1112707990.7418.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 15:09 +0200, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Tuesday 05 April 2005 15:09, Matthew East wrote: > > Ditto for this release-notes-pt.xml > > > > The outstanding xml file that doesn't validate is release-notes-tl.xml > > but I don't have time to look at it right now, have to get back to > > studying. > > OK thanks pt now validates :) Is packaging them so that they show up for users still an issue or is it sorted? M From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 14:09:45 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:09:45 +0200 Subject: replacement about-ubuntu-de.po In-Reply-To: <1112707990.7418.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112705847.7115.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504051509.39136.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112707990.7418.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504051609.48875.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 15:33, Matthew East wrote: > Is packaging them so that they show up for users still an issue or is it > sorted? have emailed enrico, no answer yet. If I dont here today will bring seb128 or thom -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark at canonical.com Tue Apr 5 17:03:15 2005 From: mark at canonical.com (Mark Shuttleworth) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:03:15 +0100 Subject: rosettawishlist In-Reply-To: <4252799B.7000806@interactors.coop> References: <4252799B.7000806@interactors.coop> Message-ID: <4252C4D3.5090108@canonical.com> These are all great feature ideas, and I think we will address each of them within a few months. Please capture them in the wiki so we can measure our progress! Quim Gil wrote: > I've got a long list of possible features for Rosetta. It was done a > couple of months ago and maybe some of the points are already > accomplished or simply out of the current plans. Do you want me to put > it in the wiki anyway? > > The major structural problems I see in Rosetta are: > > - Relation between upstream and other spaces of translation: this is > being discussed regularly. Hopefully we are going o find the perfect > solution, otherwise Rosetta may be perceived as intrusive and more a > nuisance than a help by the current organized translation teams. > > - Permissions, revisions, CVS, hierarchy of translators: this is also > being discussed. If this doesn't work probably Rosetta won't work > efficiently, so even the convinced translators will stop using it and > going back to their previous routines, leaving Rosetta as an internal > tool to develop Ubuntu. > > - Language-centered design. I'm not sure whether this has been > discussed here. Currently Rosetta has only an application-centered > design: you select an application and you can see in how many > languages is being translated, in which percentages and so on. While > this is useful for tool and distro developers, the translators > themselves use to work from a language perspective: I'm a Catalan > translator, I participate in a common effort to translate software > into Catalan and I will help where help is needed. Today there is no > way to see the state of the translation in a single language, you need > to go package by package. Having a language-centered design, > compatible to the current app-centered, it will be easier to find > missing translations and to concentrate where more effort needs to be > concentrated. > > Considering that generally the big translation projects are done by > organized teams specializing in one language, I think the > language-centered design is something key for the success of Rosetta. > > Quim > > matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > >> Hi docteam/rosettateam >> After a productive discussion in irc today, Carlos suggested >> compiling an email for what needs to be looked at re: Docteam/Rosetta >> interaction, to be discussed at UbuntuDownUnder, especially since >> most of the Docteam will not be present there. >> Similarly, in a few emails on the Rosetta list, Daffyd suggested >> emailing with suggestions for improvements to be made to Rosetta. >> I suggest a wiki page for these things: it is more flexible and we >> can amend/comment on each other's thoughts as we go along. I've >> created one at: >> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RosettaWishList >> Hope this catches on! >> thanks for your attention/ideas/feedback >> Matt >> > From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 5 18:13:24 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:13:24 +0100 Subject: Urgent last minute translating Message-ID: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Dear Translators, As you may know if you take in the translators list, we still need a couple of strings translated in order to make all the docteam translations work smoothly. The translations we need are in the below email. Just email your translations to the docteam list, specifying which language it is for. The following languages need to be done: de, pt, ca, tl, xh (who did this one?) n.b. for docteam: Once done, we need to insert translations of the files debian/about-ubuntu-C.omf and debian/release-notes-C.omf in the tree. Once this is done, enrico or seb will package for release. :) -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Claude Paroz > To: ubuntu-translators at lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Some more strings > Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:48:44 +0200 > > Hi friends, > > We still need some strings to be translated for packaging ubuntu-docs > (omf files in debian folder, title and description tags): > > " > About Ubuntu > Short description of the Hoary Ubuntu system > > Hoary Release Notes > Release Notes for Ubuntu 5.4 "Hoary Hedgehog" > " > > It's already done for French and Italian. You can just reply to the list > with translations. > > Claude > > From jalrnc at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 18:29:00 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:29:00 -0400 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <8e6ff2e305040511292d0917d2@mail.gmail.com> pt translations > > About Ubuntu Acerca do Ubuntu > > Short description of the Hoary Ubuntu system Pequena descri??o do sistema Ubuntu Hoary > > Hoary Release Notes Notas de Publica??o do Hoary > > Release Notes for Ubuntu 5.4 "Hoary Hedgehog" Notas de publica??o do Ubuntu 5.4 "Hoary Hedgehog" Regards, Jo?o On Apr 5, 2005 2:13 PM, Matthew East wrote: > Dear Translators, > > As you may know if you take in the translators list, we still need a > couple of strings translated in order to make all the docteam > translations work smoothly. The translations we need are in the below > email. Just email your translations to the docteam list, specifying > which language it is for. > > The following languages need to be done: de, pt, ca, tl, xh (who did > this one?) > > n.b. for docteam: Once done, we need to insert translations of the files > debian/about-ubuntu-C.omf and debian/release-notes-C.omf in the tree. > > Once this is done, enrico or seb will package for release. :) > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > From: Claude Paroz > > To: ubuntu-translators at lists.ubuntu.com > > Subject: Some more strings > > Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:48:44 +0200 > > > > Hi friends, > > > > We still need some strings to be translated for packaging ubuntu-docs > > (omf files in debian folder, title and description tags): > > > > " > > About Ubuntu > > Short description of the Hoary Ubuntu system > > > > Hoary Release Notes > > Release Notes for Ubuntu 5.4 "Hoary Hedgehog" > > " > > > > It's already done for French and Italian. You can just reply to the list > > with translations. > > > > Claude > > > > > > From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 5 20:19:10 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:19:10 +0200 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504052219.11303.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 20:13, Matthew East wrote: > xh (who did this one?) I have mailed the translator about-ubuntu-xh.omf release-notes-xh.omf As soon as I get them back I will commit them to debian/ Thanks, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 5 21:21:15 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:21:15 +0100 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <8e6ff2e305040511292d0917d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <8e6ff2e305040511292d0917d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1112736075.7014.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 14:29 -0400, Jo?o Cruz wrote: > pt translations Attached are the omf files for inclusion in the debian dir. I copied them off the french ones. Commit please :) M -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-pt.omf Type: text/xml Size: 1132 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-pt.omf Type: text/xml Size: 1167 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ubuntu at moosmilbe.de Tue Apr 5 21:24:25 2005 From: ubuntu at moosmilbe.de (Laura Ohrndorf) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:24:25 +0200 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050405232425.5713810c@localhost.localdomain> Matthew East wrote: de translation: > > About Ubuntu ?ber Ubuntu > > Short description of the Hoary Ubuntu system Kurze Beschreibung des Systems von Ubuntu Hoary > > Hoary Release Notes Notizen zur Ver?ffentlichung von Hoary > > Release Notes for Ubuntu 5.4 "Hoary Hedgehog" Notizen zur Ver?ffentlichung von Ubuntu 5.4 "Hoary Hedgehog" Regards, Laura -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 5 21:42:57 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:42:57 +0100 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <20050405232425.5713810c@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050405232425.5713810c@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112737377.7014.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 23:24 +0200, Laura Ohrndorf wrote: > > Notizen zur Ver?ffentlichung von Hoary Thanks to Laura, attached are the de omf files. Commit pls M -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-de.omf Type: text/xml Size: 1132 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-de.omf Type: text/xml Size: 1185 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 6 05:29:11 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:29:11 +0200 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <1112737377.7014.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050405232425.5713810c@localhost.localdomain> <1112737377.7014.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504060729.15349.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 23:42, Matthew East wrote: > Thanks to Laura, > > attached are the de omf files. Commit pls -- Thanks Mathew, Thanks Laura. Committed. Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 6 05:29:38 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:29:38 +0200 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <1112736075.7014.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <8e6ff2e305040511292d0917d2@mail.gmail.com> <1112736075.7014.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504060729.38332.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 23:21, Matthew East wrote: > Attached are the omf files for inclusion in the debian dir. I copied > them off the french ones. Commit please :) Thanks, Done -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 6 09:48:07 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:48:07 +0100 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <200504060729.38332.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <8e6ff2e305040511292d0917d2@mail.gmail.com> <1112736075.7014.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504060729.38332.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1112780887.6938.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 07:29 +0200, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Tuesday 05 April 2005 23:21, Matthew East wrote: > > Attached are the omf files for inclusion in the debian dir. I copied > > them off the french ones. Commit please :) Here are the ca ones M -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-ca.omf Type: text/xml Size: 1130 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-ca.omf Type: text/xml Size: 1160 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 6 09:47:54 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:47:54 +0200 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <1112780887.6938.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504060729.38332.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112780887.6938.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504061147.57202.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 11:48, Matthew East wrote: > Here are the ca ones Thanks done -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 10:17:46 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:17:46 +0800 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <200504061147.57202.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504060729.38332.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112780887.6938.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504061147.57202.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: Sorry for last minute submission. This is for tl (Tagalog) Jerome -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: about-ubuntu-tl.omf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1141 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: release-notes-tl.omf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1153 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 6 10:09:53 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:09:53 +0200 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200504061147.57202.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504061209.53881.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 12:17, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > Sorry for last minute submission. This is for tl (Tagalog) done -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 6 10:34:02 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:34:02 +0200 Subject: tagging for 5.04 Message-ID: <200504061234.02768.sean@inwords.co.za> People I want to tag for ubuntu-doc0.5 anyone got any objections? -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 6 12:10:06 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:10:06 +0100 Subject: translating quickguide - thoughts post hoary Message-ID: Dear all, What are the chances of getting the quickguide translated through Rosetta? it's not in the at the moment. If it is possible to get it in there, we also need to think about how to package it: the german translations we pulled out of rosetta for release-notes and about-ubuntu had to be fairly heavily edited before we could get them to validate as xml and include them in the doc packages. Also we had the problem that both the documents appeared twice on rosetta. Is it feasible/desirable to translate the quickguide (and other future guides) through rosetta? Obviously, long documents such as these are difficult to coordinate translation without a decent and reliable system. Hats off to the French team for already translating it, but for other languages we're gonna have to think about this carefully IMO. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. The quickguide and other future docteam guides will be an incredibly important part of the local (non-web) Ubuntu support system. regards, Matt From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 6 12:03:18 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:03:18 +0200 Subject: translating quickguide - thoughts post hoary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504061403.23441.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 14:10, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > What are the chances of getting the quickguide translated through Rosetta? > it's not in the at the moment. If it is possible to get it in there, we > also need to think about how to package it: the german translations we > pulled out of rosetta for release-notes and about-ubuntu had to be fairly > heavily edited before we could get them to validate as xml and include them > in the doc packages. Also we had the problem that both the documents > appeared twice on rosetta. > As I understand if the POT file is uploaded to hoary then it will be found by Rosetta, no? -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 6 13:33:10 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:33:10 +0200 Subject: SVN Restructure (thoughts and feelings) Message-ID: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> Hello Team, Well, we have tagged Hoary Hedgehog 5.04 in tags/ubuntu-docs-1.0 Well done everybody. Thanks soooooo much for all the time and effort you have put into making Hoary a success. Now we move on to the next release and we have set ourselves much to do. However, before we start hacking the documents we need to do some restructure in SVN. Reason? Well, we need to accommodate GNOME and KDE and we would like to manage the translations in nn/ folders. Ok so what's the problem? Well, all this restructuring will cause the make and build to break and people will see many files/directories being added and deleted. In short this could be disconcerting to some. So what to do? Well, there are two potions really. 1. We make the changes in trunk/ and everyone bites the bullet with the flux. 2. We branch and we hack the branch. What does this mean to you? I would like team input on restructure as much as possible. If we do it in trunk/ then everyone can see it without having to checkout a duplicate copy which will be in the branch. A payload of about 57MB with svn management files. It also means we don't have to track an additional copy and keep merging between them as we do the restructuring. If we do it in a branch people who want to have a say in the restructure will need to checkout the branch, as I said, this is +-57. Advantage of this method is that the trunk stays as it is now with make and build intact, but we will have to merge changes in trunk into the branch. Otherwise we will have to do it once all the restructure is over and that could be difficult depending on how far apart trunk and branch are at that point. Both methods have the same end result. With the branch method we just have to merge the branch into trunk once we are finished with the chaos. I would like to hear what people think if we could vote on both methods: Vote Here: * Trunk * Branch Thanks, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jjesse at iserv.net Wed Apr 6 14:42:46 2005 From: jjesse at iserv.net (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SVN Restructure (thoughts and feelings) In-Reply-To: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <19150.206.114.48.34.1112798566.squirrel@206.114.48.34> > > Vote Here: > * Trunk +1 -- Jonathan Jesse From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 6 14:48:08 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 15:48:08 +0100 Subject: SVN Restructure (thoughts and feelings) In-Reply-To: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1112798888.6766.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> I don't expect to _fully_ understand exactly what is involved with each option, but for what it's worth here is my vote. > Vote Here: > * Trunk +1 > * Branch From jgotangco at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 15:03:47 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:03:47 +0800 Subject: SVN Restructure (thoughts and feelings) In-Reply-To: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: > Now we move on to the next release and we have set ourselves much to do. > However, before we start hacking the documents we need to do some restructure > in SVN. Reason? Well, we need to accommodate GNOME and KDE and we would like > to manage the translations in nn/ folders. If I understand this right, because of the tool/renderer differences with GNOME (Yelp) and KDE (konqueror?) our end product xml will have different tags per desktop environment? > I would like team input on restructure as much as possible. If we do it in > trunk/ then everyone can see it without having to checkout a duplicate copy > which will be in the branch. A payload of about 57MB with svn management > files. It also means we don't have to track an additional copy and keep > merging between them as we do the restructuring. If we do it in a branch > people who want to have a say in the restructure will need to checkout the > branch, as I said, this is +-57. Advantage of this method is that the trunk > stays as it is now with make and build intact, but we will have to merge > changes in trunk into the branch. Otherwise we will have to do it once all > the restructure is over and that could be difficult depending on how far > apart trunk and branch are at that point. Both methods have the same end > result. With the branch method we just have to merge the branch into trunk > once we are finished with the chaos. I think for the sanity of the team and the translators, and to chart into new territory, the branch method sounds good to me. We'll have the end result anyway. If I got Sean's explanation correctly, the next documentation release after 5.10 would be branched again? -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntu-ph.org From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 6 15:19:58 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:19:58 +0200 Subject: SVN Restructure (thoughts and feelings) In-Reply-To: References: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504061720.02297.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 17:03, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > > > > If I understand this right, because of the tool/renderer differences > with GNOME (Yelp) and KDE (konqueror?) our end product xml will have > different tags per desktop environment? Not quite. We have stuff that is GNOME, KDE and GNU/LINUX. Some stuff will only be in GNOME and therefore we can develop according to the GNOME specs and stds. The same for KDE. The GNU/Linux stuff is applicable to to both desktops and is more about CLI than GUI. Putting all into one basket can get confusing. Managing separately will be easier. We will still have our commons such as legalnotice, disclaimer, copyright etc. > > > > I think for the sanity of the team and the translators, and to ?chart > into new territory, the branch method sounds good to me. ?We'll have > the end result anyway. If I got Sean's explanation correctly, the next > documentation release after 5.10 would be branched again? Again, not quite. A bit about SVN repos structures. You know about trunk/ What you don't know is that there are other folders relative to trunk/ The first is tags/ - here we make a copy of releases where they are preserved for posterity. The next is branches/ - here developers can make a copy of code and work without impacting on developers in trunk/ Branches are used when the changes are expected to be intrusive or are not relevant to the core work being done in trunk/ Changes in trunk and Branches can be merged between one another. So we do not branch at 5.10, we tag. In this case we are asking people if the want a branch because the restructure is intrusive. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paroz at email.ch Wed Apr 6 19:55:25 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:55:25 +0200 Subject: translating quickguide - thoughts post hoary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112817325.7911.25.camel@paroz> Le mercredi 06 avril 2005 ? 13:10 +0100, matthew.east at breathe.com a ?crit : > Dear all, > > What are the chances of getting the quickguide translated through Rosetta? > it's not in the at the moment. If it is possible to get it in there, we also > need to think about how to package it: the german translations we pulled out > of rosetta for release-notes and about-ubuntu had to be fairly heavily > edited before we could get them to validate as xml and include them in the > doc packages. Also we had the problem that both the documents appeared twice > on rosetta. > > Is it feasible/desirable to translate the quickguide (and other future > guides) through rosetta? Obviously, long documents such as these are > difficult to coordinate translation without a decent and reliable system. > Hats off to the French team for already translating it, but for other > languages we're gonna have to think about this carefully IMO. > > I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. The quickguide and other > future docteam guides will be an incredibly important part of the local > (non-web) Ubuntu support system. Thanks Matt for your thoughts. I'm convinced that Rosetta is the way, but there's still some obstacles on the way :) 1. First of all and urgently, Rosetta will have to get rid of these language variations (fr, fr_FR, etc.). People are translating now many times the same language. It's not fair for them ! 2. We need only one package for ubuntu-docs to translate it (there is four now). Does it mean that it should exists only one pot file per package (Rosetta's admin answer requested :) ) ? IMHO, it should be named ubuntu-docs and not review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-x Maybe someone could explain why some packages are named review-hoary... 3. The quickguide (and other docs) should absolutely be available in Rosetta. And also into language-packs... but that's another story. The pot is here : https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/tags/ubuntu-docs-1.0/quickguide/quick-guide.pot BTW, is there a way to make translated screenshots with Rosetta ? Claude From ubuntu at trickie.org Wed Apr 6 21:33:06 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:33:06 +1000 Subject: SVN Restructure (thoughts and feelings) In-Reply-To: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <42545592.6000806@trickie.org> Sean Wheller wrote: (snip) > Vote Here: > * Trunk > +1 > * Branch From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 03:56:35 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:56:35 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu Message-ID: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> Hello All, I am certain you have all noticed two recent changes to Ubuntu Hoary: 1. Change in Nautilus spatial 2. New artwork While I agree with 2nd change and disagree with the 1st, the real issue here is timing for our team. 1. The 1st change cannot be well documented, as we are already deep in string freeze and translation. Thus people do not have a easy answer on how to change it. 2. The 2nd means that all of our screenshots are out of date. To me, this makes our docs, most especially our flagship Quickguide, look competely unprofessional. I am wondering if we, as a team, want to make a statement regarding these last minutes changes. Corey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 04:05:57 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:05:57 +0800 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The changes are huge after reverting my settings to default to check it out and I agree with Corey on both points - especially the artwork. I support on making a statement with regards to these last minute changes. Jerome On Apr 7, 2005 11:56 AM, Corey Burger wrote: > Hello All, > > I am certain you have all noticed two recent changes to Ubuntu Hoary: > > 1. Change in Nautilus spatial > 2. New artwork > > While I agree with 2nd change and disagree with the 1st, the real issue > here is timing for our team. > > 1. The 1st change cannot be well documented, as we are already deep in > string freeze and translation. Thus people do not have a easy answer on how > to change it. > > 2. The 2nd means that all of our screenshots are out of date. To me, this > makes our docs, most especially our flagship Quickguide, look competely > unprofessional. > > I am wondering if we, as a team, want to make a statement regarding these > last minutes changes. > > Corey -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntu-ph.org From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 04:17:48 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:17:48 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> On Wed, Apr 06, 2005, Corey Burger wrote: > I am wondering if we, as a team, want to make a statement regarding these > last minutes changes. It seems like a sensible idea, since the wiki outage also wasn't mentioned to us for a little while. It's quite possible that the development team simply aren't factoring documentation needs into their freeze decisions etc at the moment, or aren't doing so consistently. Putting on my developer hat for a moment (I'm not an Ubuntu developer at all, btw, so don't read this statement as "speaking for the devel people"), moving to considering look-n-feel changes as "major" or "needing documentation team approval" would be a shift for many developers. Is there currently any kind of role anyone here is doing wrt acting as an "interface" between the devel team and the doc team. It seems like it might be worthwhile to have a docteam member with some kind of role letting them report to the devel team when a decision negatively affects the doc team (and vice versa, if the doc team's actions are negatively affecting the devel team). -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Thu Apr 7 04:29:40 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:29:40 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Wed, Apr 06, 2005, Corey Burger wrote: > > > Is there currently any kind of role anyone here is doing wrt acting as > an "interface" between the devel team and the doc team. It seems like it > might be worthwhile to have a docteam member with some kind of role > letting them report to the devel team when a decision negatively affects > the doc team (and vice versa, if the doc team's actions are negatively > affecting the devel team). I am subscribed to the developer list, and have had good feedback and discussion with developers when needed (particularly about the release notes). I think your idea Mary is a good one, because the developers have no problem discussing things from a doc team perspective (in my experience anyway), it just isn't something they always think about. If they knew they had a point of contact that was up-to-date on what they are doing then i think, over time, feedback and changes would be fed back to the doc team efficiently. Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 04:34:49 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:34:49 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> Message-ID: <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 6, 2005 9:29 PM, Nick Loeve wrote: > > Mary Gardiner wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 06, 2005, Corey Burger wrote: > > > > > > Is there currently any kind of role anyone here is doing wrt acting as > > an "interface" between the devel team and the doc team. It seems like it > > might be worthwhile to have a docteam member with some kind of role > > letting them report to the devel team when a decision negatively affects > > the doc team (and vice versa, if the doc team's actions are negatively > > affecting the devel team). > > I am subscribed to the developer list, and have had good feedback and > discussion with developers when needed (particularly about the release > notes). > > I think your idea Mary is a good one, because the developers have no > problem discussing things from a doc team perspective (in my experience > anyway), it just isn't something they always think about. > > If they knew they had a point of contact that was up-to-date on what > they are doing then i think, over time, feedback and changes would be > fed back to the doc team efficiently. > > Cheers > trickie (Nick Loeve) > > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > I absolutely agree with both the above statements. I wasn't trying to pin the dev team down or say that they were less than responsive, but an official statement from team can carry a lot more weight than just us talking individually. Communication and easy access are one of the things that has kept me on Ubuntu, something that other distros should be envious of. Corey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ubuntu at trickie.org Thu Apr 7 04:39:45 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:39:45 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> Corey Burger wrote: > > I absolutely agree with both the above statements. I wasn't trying to > pin the dev team down or say that they were less than responsive, but an > official statement from team can carry a lot more weight than just us > talking individually. > + 1 - when we approach them about this i think we should be careful though not to sound like we are berating them. We should also offer the solution of having someone around on the dev list to start this process of making the communication more effective. Maybe even a formal introduction of the role that person is trying to take on. Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 04:44:32 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:44:32 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> Message-ID: <20050407044432.GE3457@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: > I think your idea Mary is a good one, because the developers have no > problem discussing things from a doc team perspective (in my experience > anyway), it just isn't something they always think about. > > If they knew they had a point of contact that was up-to-date on what > they are doing then i think, over time, feedback and changes would be > fed back to the doc team efficiently. Is anyone able to be such a point of contact? I am, unfortunately, not willing to volunteer to do this. -Mary From jgotangco at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 04:44:20 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:44:20 +0800 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> Message-ID: It should be two way as well; the developers have someone that interfaces to the general docteam and the docteam has one to represent the general consensus of team to the devels. This is sort of exchanging progress reports per project milestone so both teams are reading the same reports. Jerome On Apr 7, 2005 12:39 PM, Nick Loeve wrote: > + 1 - when we approach them about this i think we should be careful > though not to sound like we are berating them. We should also offer the > solution of having someone around on the dev list to start this process > of making the communication more effective. Maybe even a formal > introduction of the role that person is trying to take on. > > Cheers > trickie (Nick Loeve) > -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntu-ph.org From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 04:46:43 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:46:43 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> Message-ID: <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > It should be two way as well; the developers have someone that > interfaces to the general docteam and the docteam has one to represent > the general consensus of team to the devels. This is sort of > exchanging progress reports per project milestone so both teams are > reading the same reports. I'd like this too, if possible, but it requires two volunteers rather than one. If there are no dev people willing to do this, I'd rather have one person from the docteam than no interfaces at all :) -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Thu Apr 7 04:56:22 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:56:22 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > >>It should be two way as well; the developers have someone that >>interfaces to the general docteam and the docteam has one to represent >>the general consensus of team to the devels. This is sort of >>exchanging progress reports per project milestone so both teams are >>reading the same reports. > > > I'd like this too, if possible, but it requires two volunteers rather > than one. If there are no dev people willing to do this, I'd rather have > one person from the docteam than no interfaces at all :) > > -Mary > I think that we may have trouble getting a dev rep to carry this process through, especially at a time like now, when they are flat out. If noone else wants to then i can do it... I also think we should not hit them right now, as they are all flat out, and we don't want our cries to be missed or ignored :) Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From jgotangco at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 04:56:44 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:56:44 +0800 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: I also forgot to mention about Kubuntu. This is another thing to consider. Jerome On Apr 7, 2005 12:46 PM, Mary Gardiner wrote: > I'd like this too, if possible, but it requires two volunteers rather > than one. If there are no dev people willing to do this, I'd rather have > one person from the docteam than no interfaces at all :) > > -Mary -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntu-ph.org From matthew.east at breathe.com Thu Apr 7 06:28:18 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:28:18 +0100 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> Message-ID: > If noone else wants to then i can do it... I also think we should not > hit them right now, as they are all flat out, and we don't want our > cries to be missed or ignored :) Just got up to read these emails. I support the idea fully. However I would point out that not all last minute changes are necessarily implemented by the development team as a whole. In terms of the artwork, I presume it was just when it happened to be ready. In terms of the nautilus change, it seems to have been a unilateral decision ;) But it is a good idea IMO both to make a statement and also to get in on the loop via a representative if poss. Is ANYONE on the docteam going to be in UBU? enrico? If so maybe that is a good time to bring it up. If not, then perhaps before so that it can be discussed there. x M From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 06:32:24 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:32:24 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> Message-ID: <20050407063224.GG3457@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > But it is a good idea IMO both to make a statement and also to get in > on the loop via a representative if poss. Is ANYONE on the docteam > going to be in UBU? enrico? If so maybe that is a good time to bring > it up. If not, then perhaps before so that it can be discussed there. I will be there on the 25th April (I live in Sydney), and if there's noone else there then I'd be more than happy to discuss it with developers there. However, I'd really like to have something firm to discuss, and if we do decide to have a go-between, a go-between to (virtually) introduce them to. -Mary From jgotangco at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 06:35:04 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:35:04 +0800 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> Message-ID: I will be in UDU, it'll be fun *grin* but we do have a valid issue that needs to be raised. Jerome On Apr 7, 2005 2:28 PM, matthew.east at breathe.com > But it is a good idea IMO both to make a statement and also to get in on the > loop via a representative if poss. Is ANYONE on the docteam going to be in > UBU? enrico? If so maybe that is a good time to bring it up. If not, then > perhaps before so that it can be discussed there. -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntu-ph.org From mdz at ubuntu.com Thu Apr 7 06:54:45 2005 From: mdz at ubuntu.com (Matt Zimmerman) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:54:45 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> Message-ID: <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 07:28:18AM +0100, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > Just got up to read these emails. I support the idea fully. However I would > point out that not all last minute changes are necessarily implemented by > the development team as a whole. In terms of the artwork, I presume it was > just when it happened to be ready. In terms of the nautilus change, it > seems to have been a unilateral decision ;) Correct on both points. A deliberate effort was made to get the artwork sorted earlier in the release cycle, but deadlines were unfortunately missed. I regret if this has resulted in diminished satisfaction with the documentation. Artwork has turned out to be a source of more interdependencies than we anticipated. What can we do for the next release cycle to improve the workflow? -- - mdz From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 07:08:42 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:08:42 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> Message-ID: <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 6, 2005 11:54 PM, Matt Zimmerman wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 07:28:18AM +0100, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > > > Just got up to read these emails. I support the idea fully. However I > would > > point out that not all last minute changes are necessarily implemented > by > > the development team as a whole. In terms of the artwork, I presume it > was > > just when it happened to be ready. In terms of the nautilus change, it > > seems to have been a unilateral decision ;) > > Correct on both points. > > A deliberate effort was made to get the artwork sorted earlier in the > release cycle, but deadlines were unfortunately missed. I regret if this > has resulted in diminished satisfaction with the documentation. > > Artwork has turned out to be a source of more interdependencies than we > anticipated. What can we do for the next release cycle to improve the > workflow? > > -- > - mdz For me, knowledge is the most important thing. To simply be officially informed that artwork changes are coming, and what they are expected to touch (login screen, theme, icons, etc.). This would allow us to plan when to take the screenshots and when to wait. Ideally, feedback could also come back from us, most especially with regards to timing. If the artwork slips too much, then we run into a major crunch for time. Screenshots cannot be easily translated, and thus must be taken by hand currently. I am not asking for a veto, but just have a vote as a team when and if the slips happen. Thoughts? Corey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mdz at ubuntu.com Thu Apr 7 07:20:17 2005 From: mdz at ubuntu.com (Matt Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:20:17 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 12:08:42AM -0700, Corey Burger wrote: > For me, knowledge is the most important thing. Certainly, but the question (workflow) is how to communicate this information effectively. For example, I think a good start would be to add an artwork deadline to the release schedule, and enforce it as we would a string freeze, allowing time for documentation updates. -- - mdz From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 07:31:58 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:31:58 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> Message-ID: <348bd6da05040700315d17cb31@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 7, 2005 12:20 AM, Matt Zimmerman wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 12:08:42AM -0700, Corey Burger wrote: > > > For me, knowledge is the most important thing. > > Certainly, but the question (workflow) is how to communicate this > information effectively. > > For example, I think a good start would be to add an artwork deadline to > the > release schedule, and enforce it as we would a string freeze, allowing > time > for documentation updates. > > -- > - mdz If that is something the development team is willing to do, then that would be a good solution to our issues. Corey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Thu Apr 7 07:33:55 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 08:33:55 +0100 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> Message-ID: Matt Zimmerman writes: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 12:08:42AM -0700, Corey Burger wrote: > >> For me, knowledge is the most important thing. > > Certainly, but the question (workflow) is how to communicate this > information effectively. > > For example, I think a good start would be to add an artwork deadline to the > release schedule, and enforce it as we would a string freeze, allowing time > for documentation updates. That sounds like a good idea. I suppose the most important thing for us is being informed about changes which affect our work. The last minute changes are an example of this. Other examples are, as Mary said, when the wiki is rolled back, or when new methods of translation are implemented (Rosetta). The most important thing is to know about these things, so that we can try and deal with it. A secondary thing would be to have some kind of input in the decisions themselves, simply to ensure that the documentation implications of decisions are taken into account, no more. M From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 7 07:27:44 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:27:44 +0200 Subject: broken xrefs Message-ID: <200504070927.48549.sean@inwords.co.za> Dunno how this happened, but we fixed our xref problem during the Docteam Meeting and now they are all broken again. :-( Oh I am so tired of having to be dependant Yelp *sigh* -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 08:29:59 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:29:59 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> Message-ID: <20050407082959.GA8333@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > That sounds like a good idea. I suppose the most important thing for us is > being informed about changes which affect our work. The last minute changes > are an example of this. Other examples are, as Mary said, when the wiki is > rolled back, or when new methods of translation are implemented (Rosetta). > The most important thing is to know about these things, so that we can try > and deal with it. A secondary thing would be to have some kind of input in > the decisions themselves, simply to ensure that the documentation > implications of decisions are taken into account, no more. I think having several people monitoring the dev list and also at least one docteam person at each technical board meeting (they're open to all attendees according to the wiki) would go a long way towards keeping us informed. This means that if the dev team slip-up as happened with the wiki where Henrik did not include ubuntu-doc in the wiki notice, our own people can forward on information very quickly. -Mary From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 7 08:18:34 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:18:34 +0200 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> Message-ID: <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> For those comming in early to this thread please see http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-April/001857.html ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` My feeling is that we have to take the severity of the change into account. GUI changes will have a heavy impact on documents in the areas of screen captures and desktop menu systems. Regarding the two issues at hand. The Ubuntu theme change really does not bother much. The main screens of the applications are the same. For the spatial change I think it would have been nice to have it in the release notes. No use crying over spilt milk. Both these issues are not major, but do indicate that communication and workflow are not as tight as they should be. The results could have been much worse, so we do need to avoid this type of problem if we can. In building the Docbook XML framework I have incorporated some features that enable us to quickly adjust ourselves to such circumstances, provided that we have warning. The first is that all menus are external entities and the second is that images are saved in one place. A single update to either of these central locations will update all documents providing that the authors use them. What we need then is that developers keep us posted on GUI changes. Matt I think you are the best person to update us with regard to 'sweeping' changes such as a change in the desktop menu system or theme change. For individual documents it should be the developers responsability to update the authors who maintain the document. So, when making changes people in devel should be thinking, "Does this change impact documentation?" If yes then contact docteam or authors, if no then do nothing. On our part we also need to be more vigilant. I highly recommend that all authors document against development and not the preview releases. Post Hoary this means updating your apt sources, doing regular reloads of the sources lists and performing upgrades as the come in. For next version this means that the authors platform may become unstable. I normally do this work on a lab machine. Not everybody has this luxury, so if anyone has suggestions on how to do this, please speak now. For menu changes I will try to script so that menus are generated and updated from /etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu . I believe this is a Free Desktop Standard, so it applies to both GNOME and KDE, which makes life a little easier. Hopefully, this will eliminate the need to be continuosly updated with regard to changes in the desktop menu system. If I get it right, then I will make the doc team aware of desktop menu changes via of the commits being auto sent to our commit list and to the user list. Again, the benefit will also mean that we are made aware of addition, subtraction or relocation of applications that are part of the desktop menu system. In general, devel should just be sensitive to the fact that we also have i18n stuff in our build system. So a single menu change could result in many smaller updates trickling through the ecosystem. On the side of caution, it is best to give early warning especially near preview and final releases. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 7 09:37:16 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:37:16 +0200 Subject: SVN Restructure (thoughts and feelings) In-Reply-To: <42545592.6000806@trickie.org> References: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> <42545592.6000806@trickie.org> Message-ID: <200504071137.20176.sean@inwords.co.za> OK I have three for and three against, one undecided. So I am branching. This way people wont complain if everything is broken :-) -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 7 09:39:38 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:39:38 +0200 Subject: SVN Restructure (thoughts and feelings) In-Reply-To: <200504071137.20176.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504061533.13859.sean@inwords.co.za> <42545592.6000806@trickie.org> <200504071137.20176.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504071139.39136.sean@inwords.co.za> Before I do I am gonna make some gently cleanups around the trunk with breaking anything. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark at canonical.com Thu Apr 7 09:59:01 2005 From: mark at canonical.com (Mark Shuttleworth) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 10:59:01 +0100 Subject: translating quickguide - thoughts post hoary In-Reply-To: <1112817325.7911.25.camel@paroz> References: <1112817325.7911.25.camel@paroz> Message-ID: <42550465.5000600@canonical.com> Claude Paroz wrote: >1. First of all and urgently, Rosetta will have to get rid of these >language variations (fr, fr_FR, etc.). People are translating now many >times the same language. It's not fair for them ! > > I thought we had eliminated those back in December at Mataro. Daf? >2. We need only one package for ubuntu-docs to translate it (there is >four now). Does it mean that it should exists only one pot file per >package (Rosetta's admin answer requested :) ) ? >IMHO, it should be named ubuntu-docs and not review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-x >Maybe someone could explain why some packages are named review-hoary... > > When we did the imports, we had an automated process to identify the likely name of the template. But some packages make it impossible to do that... if you have three files all called template.pot it's not possible to guess an appropriate name. So these ones were assigned the review-* names automatically. Over time they will be reviewed and the names fixed to be more appropriate. From mario.vukelic at dantian.org Thu Apr 7 10:36:31 2005 From: mario.vukelic at dantian.org (Mario Vukelic) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:36:31 +0200 Subject: Urgent last minute translating In-Reply-To: <20050405232425.5713810c@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112724804.6929.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050405232425.5713810c@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1112870191.15807.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 23:24 +0200, Laura Ohrndorf wrote: > > > > Short description of the Hoary Ubuntu system > > Kurze Beschreibung des Systems von Ubuntu Hoary This sounds non-native in German. "Das System von Ubuntu Hoary" sounds like there is a person called "Ubuntu Hoary" who owns a system of undefined type. I'd propose "(Eine) kurze Beschreibung von Ubuntu Hoary" == "A short description of Ubuntu Hoary" * "Eine" == "a"; nor strictly needed, but sounds strange without the article in German * Leaving out "system" is totally fine if the reader knows what Ubuntu is. From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 7 11:16:43 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:16:43 +0200 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <42550D7C.5040907@canonical.com> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> <42550D7C.5040907@canonical.com> Message-ID: <200504071316.47402.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 07 April 2005 12:37, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > Sean Wheller wrote: > >Both these issues are not major, but do indicate that communication and > >workflow are not as tight as they should be. ... > > We've not done a great job with Hoary. It was better than with warty, > but we still lacked a cohesive execution. Andy Fitzsimon is working on > icons, Cliff Chen was involved, Jeff Waugh was involved, I have > requirements to be considered and a hard boot for the final look... and > all of this was sort of semi-decoupled. I think integrating the doc team > and making an artwork team will help, but the main thing we are missing > is a lead organiser who keeps track of the moving parts. Isn't it the role of the package manager to keep track of all moving parts? > >On our part we also need to be more vigilant. I highly recommend that all > >authors document against development and not the preview releases. Post > > Hoary > > Well, we could help the doc, i18n and artwork guys if we had a process > for reporting changes post-preview that would impact on them. We could > also put in place some sort fo package alerting system, so the doc team > could get alerted to uploads of specific packages. Sounds good. Could be mailed to this list. The problem is there are so many moving parts to keep track of and so many mailing lists. Dunno about you but I already get around 700 - 800 email message a day. You should see my filters list in Kmail. > > >In general, devel should just be sensitive to the fact that we also have > > i18n stuff in our build system. So a single menu change could result in > > many smaller updates trickling through the ecosystem. On the side of > > caution, it is best to give early warning especially near preview and > > final releases. > > On this front we've been pretty good. Even the spatial browsing > behaviour change does not affect UI or translations, though a comment in > docs would have been a good idea that I missed. I did not mention that Ubuntu Device Database crept in between the last preview release and final :-) Although I am to blame here because I did write the User Manual and neglected to update the Quick Guide. Stupid of me, really stupid. I should know better, must apologize on that front. We also missed some really stupid things in About Ubuntu. We mention that we have Kubuntu and then later in the page say that we have not attempted KDE at this early stage due to restraints in humand resources to undertake such an effort. All the eye-balls in the world did not catch that one. I think it is because we encountered Kubuntu late. Anyway we will be much more aware of it next release since we will have integrated a documentation effort for Kubuntu into our repos. Ah well we continue to learn and improve over time and muddle along ... more coffee ands rusks; anyone? -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 11:45:38 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:45:38 +0800 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504071316.47402.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> <42550D7C.5040907@canonical.com> <200504071316.47402.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005 7:16 PM, Sean Wheller wrote: > We also missed some really stupid things in About Ubuntu. We mention that we > have Kubuntu and then later in the page say that we have not attempted KDE at > this early stage due to restraints in humand resources to undertake such an > effort. All the eye-balls in the world did not catch that one. I think it is > because we encountered Kubuntu late. Anyway we will be much more aware of it > next release since we will have integrated a documentation effort for Kubuntu > into our repos. I did notice it, and I blame myself now for not pointing it out because I was fairly new to the Documentation Team and just came in during the il8n phase. I assumed it was ok but then, all il8n has that error as well. Let's charge this to experience. *grin* In the chat room with Corey, he has some really nice ideas on integrating the whole documentation procedure whatever is the end product (wiki, docbook, etc.) in a logical way that all users, especially the new ones will have to read. It's not nice when reading yelp that when I find a page in the manual that tells me what to do, but i have to read it elsewhere and is not included in the current manual. This is especially so for people who migrate from another os or distribution. At the moment, we do have an awesome collection of docs but like what Sean hass pointed out, everything is so decentralized at the moment. In my former job, where I did some technical writing in an ISO setting, the method of doing the manual should be documented, as well as the history of the said document. I believe this is possible in our current setting - we do need a cohesive system that allows us to have proper audit trails as well as document history. The end result of these documents are collected in a Documentation Masterlist that we all refer to. I'm sure our current system is capable of such, we just have to create proper procedures. I may have missed a lot of stuff, especially because I have come in so late, but these are the observations I have made when I started contributing a few months ago. Jerome -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntu-ph.org From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 7 11:41:57 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:41:57 +0200 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <200504071316.47402.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504071342.01477.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 07 April 2005 13:45, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > In the chat room with Corey, he has some really nice ideas on > integrating the whole documentation procedure whatever is the end > product (wiki, docbook, etc.) in a logical way that all users, > especially the new ones will have to read. It's not nice when reading > yelp that when I find a page in the manual that tells me what to do, > but i have to read it elsewhere and is not included in the current > manual. This is especially so for people who migrate from another os > or distribution. Yes I currently have two systems in eval in my lab: Docbook Wiki Apache Lenya > > At the moment, we do have an awesome collection of docs but like what > Sean hass pointed out, everything is so decentralized at the moment. > In my former job, where I did some technical writing in an ISO > setting, the method of doing the manual should be documented, as well > as the history of the said document. I believe this is possible in our > current setting - we do need a cohesive system that allows us to have > proper audit trails as well as document history. The end result of > these documents are collected in a Documentation Masterlist that we > all refer to. I'm sure our current system is capable of such, we just > have to create proper procedures. Yes, we did try get a formal process some time ago, but people were not in favor. Their point of view is that doing documentation would stop being fun. If people are interested and want to support such an initiative I will make the policy document. However, I would not like to go this effort and then nobody follows it. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 12:03:29 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:03:29 +0800 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504071342.01477.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <200504071316.47402.sean@inwords.co.za> <200504071342.01477.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005 7:41 PM, Sean Wheller wrote: > Yes, we did try get a formal process some time ago, but people were not in > favor. Their point of view is that doing documentation would stop being fun. > If people are interested and want to support such an initiative I will make > the policy document. However, I would not like to go this effort and then > nobody follows it. I would support this initiative especially on the Docbook side because the official manual is very very critical for the end product - we all know that. The wiki is an entirely different animal though, but should complement the Docbook manual. -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntu-ph.org From matthew.east at breathe.com Thu Apr 7 12:21:58 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:21:58 +0100 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <200504071316.47402.sean@inwords.co.za> <200504071342.01477.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: Jerome Gotangco writes: > On Apr 7, 2005 7:41 PM, Sean Wheller wrote: > >> Yes, we did try get a formal process some time ago, but people were not in >> favor. Their point of view is that doing documentation would stop being fun. >> If people are interested and want to support such an initiative I will make >> the policy document. However, I would not like to go this effort and then >> nobody follows it. > > I would support this initiative especially on the Docbook side because > the official manual is very very critical for the end product - we all > know that. The wiki is an entirely different animal though, but should > complement the Docbook manual. Whatever you guys decide on is fine by me. I tend to be of the opinion sometimes that although discussions on methods are essential, these things can sometimes be over analysed, and can be best to just get on with the work in whatever format is decided. To some extent we are dependent on Canonical's decisions regarding what role the wiki should play. Matt From mark.shuttleworth at canonical.com Thu Apr 7 10:37:48 2005 From: mark.shuttleworth at canonical.com (Mark Shuttleworth) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 11:37:48 +0100 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <42550D7C.5040907@canonical.com> Sean Wheller wrote: >Both these issues are not major, but do indicate that communication and >workflow are not as tight as they should be. The results could have been much >worse, so we do need to avoid this type of problem if we can. > > We should have an artwork list, and the doc-team should be on that. Artwork is always likely to be changing close to release, though we had planned to have it final 7 days before and in the end only finalised it 2 days before. Artwork encompasses: - the default theme - the login screen(s) - the default desktop background - the icon set - the sound scheme We've not done a great job with Hoary. It was better than with warty, but we still lacked a cohesive execution. Andy Fitzsimon is working on icons, Cliff Chen was involved, Jeff Waugh was involved, I have requirements to be considered and a hard boot for the final look... and all of this was sort of semi-decoupled. I think integrating the doc team and making an artwork team will help, but the main thing we are missing is a lead organiser who keeps track of the moving parts. For Breezy, I think we should make a big push on sounds, for example. It's the weak spot in our art portfolio at the moment, in the sense that it's the thing we've put the least into. It would be nice to have a great folio of sounds, and to make sure that every mail app, for example, uses the same "new mail" sound. >On our part we also need to be more vigilant. I highly recommend that all >authors document against development and not the preview releases. Post Hoary > > Well, we could help the doc, i18n and artwork guys if we had a process for reporting changes post-preview that would impact on them. We could also put in place some sort fo package alerting system, so the doc team could get alerted to uploads of specific packages. >In general, devel should just be sensitive to the fact that we also have i18n >stuff in our build system. So a single menu change could result in many >smaller updates trickling through the ecosystem. On the side of caution, it >is best to give early warning especially near preview and final releases. > > On this front we've been pretty good. Even the spatial browsing behaviour change does not affect UI or translations, though a comment in docs would have been a good idea that I missed. Mark From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 7 13:31:10 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:31:10 +0200 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <200504071531.14693.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 07 April 2005 14:21, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > To some extent we are dependent on > Canonical's decisions regarding what role the wiki should play. Not sure I agree there. Ubuntu should not be about the wants of Canonical or Mark. Rather about the wants of its developers and the needs of its users. The question of, will run this or won't run that, has already been answered by Mark. He has stated that he will support any solution providing that it meets the security muster. In the documentation space I think we (as team) have decided that a single place to host and access documentation is a must. However, before we can get there, we need technology to make certain aspects of contribution and maintenance easier. Hence we have decided to look at solutions that will assist us. However, all the technology in the world will not help us if we do not have defined processes. Processes enhance quality and, in my experience, are positive with regards to productivity. The more people we have on the team the greater the need for process. Fortunately the two systems we are currently considering both enforce a certain level of process. On a new note: Since xmas I have been very happy to see that the number of active contributors has quadrupled. I hope it will continue to be so, for then we can really start to do some great things. Going into the next release with a much larger force of people is going to be of great benefit. The more people we have on docs the better. I would like the team to continue growing. My approach has and will continue to be, to have maximum patience with new people and assist them through every step. Even if this means being on IRC #ubuntu-doc and speaking the person through things. So far this method of knowledge transfer, combined with the docteam web pages, has empowered at least 4 people to become active contributors. All of them have never used SVN or Docbook. I think all docteam contributors should take the same approach and sincerely hope that those whom I have helped will take the time to mentor new comers. Working on Ubuntu has taught me much, I hope to afford others with the same opportunity to learn and together build a great distro with the support of Canonical and Mark. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 7 14:23:06 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:23:06 +0200 Subject: Ubuntu-docs branched r871 Message-ID: <200504071623.10141.sean@inwords.co.za> Hello people I have branch at r871 for restructure. The branch is located in repos/branches/restructure For those who only have a copy of trunk/ if you wish to work on the branch please checkout svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/restructure svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ is still in stable. Questions, help needed, just shout. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdz at ubuntu.com Thu Apr 7 15:40:03 2005 From: mdz at ubuntu.com (Matt Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:40:03 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> Message-ID: <20050407154003.GJ8826@alcor.net> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 08:33:55AM +0100, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > That sounds like a good idea. I suppose the most important thing for us is > being informed about changes which affect our work. The last minute > changes are an example of this. Other examples are, as Mary said, when the > wiki is rolled back The wiki being rolled back was completely unintentional, an error. The best that could have been done was to communicate it after the fact; Henrik didn't contact the -doc list initially, but the message reached you nonetheless fairly quickly. -- - mdz From mdz at ubuntu.com Thu Apr 7 16:04:22 2005 From: mdz at ubuntu.com (Matt Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:04:22 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05040700315d17cb31@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da05040700315d17cb31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050407160422.GK8826@alcor.net> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 12:31:58AM -0700, Corey Burger wrote: > If that is something the development team is willing to do, then that would > be a good solution to our issues. It's on the todo list for the release discussion at Ubuntu Down Under. -- - mdz From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 22:52:34 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:52:34 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050407154003.GJ8826@alcor.net> References: <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <20050407154003.GJ8826@alcor.net> Message-ID: <20050407225234.GB11255@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Matt Zimmerman wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 08:33:55AM +0100, matthew.east at breathe.com > wrote: > > That sounds like a good idea. I suppose the most important thing for > > us is being informed about changes which affect our work. The last > > minute changes are an example of this. Other examples are, as Mary > > said, when the wiki is rolled back > > The wiki being rolled back was completely unintentional, an error. > The best that could have been done was to communicate it after the > fact; Henrik didn't contact the -doc list initially, but the message > reached you nonetheless fairly quickly. I don't think Matthew thought otherwise: I was the one who raised the issue of the wiki in connection with this, and *I* don't think otherwise. It is obviously the case though that we'd like to know about documentation data loss, and anything having a similar impact (I can think of a few examples: svn access being down, long maintainence windows for the website) as soon as possible. In the case of the wiki the result was several confused mails to this list: I agree that that's no big concern since the matter was cleared up within the day, but why not improve where we can? The proposed solution is to have the doc team make an effort to follow development/admin news via a stronger presence on the devel list and hopefully a (non-member) presence at the technical board meetings. If this was already happening we probably would have found out about the wiki rollback a bit sooner. This doesn't imply criticism of existing procedure above "it's not perfect, we see a way to improve it, let's do it." -Mary From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 22:58:53 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:58:53 -0700 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050407225234.GB11255@home.puzzling.org> References: <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <20050407154003.GJ8826@alcor.net> <20050407225234.GB11255@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <348bd6da05040715582debaa35@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 7, 2005 3:52 PM, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Matt Zimmerman wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 08:33:55AM +0100, matthew.east at breathe.com > > wrote: > > > That sounds like a good idea. I suppose the most important thing for > > > us is being informed about changes which affect our work. The last > > > minute changes are an example of this. Other examples are, as Mary > > > said, when the wiki is rolled back > > > > The wiki being rolled back was completely unintentional, an error. > > The best that could have been done was to communicate it after the > > fact; Henrik didn't contact the -doc list initially, but the message > > reached you nonetheless fairly quickly. > > I don't think Matthew thought otherwise: I was the one who raised the > issue of the wiki in connection with this, and *I* don't think > otherwise. > > It is obviously the case though that we'd like to know about > documentation data loss, and anything having a similar impact (I can > think of a few examples: svn access being down, long maintainence > windows for the website) as soon as possible. In the case of the wiki > the result was several confused mails to this list: I agree that that's > no big concern since the matter was cleared up within the day, but why > not improve where we can? > > The proposed solution is to have the doc team make an effort to follow > development/admin news via a stronger presence on the devel list and > hopefully a (non-member) presence at the technical board meetings. If > this was already happening we probably would have found out about the > wiki rollback a bit sooner. This doesn't imply criticism of existing > procedure above "it's not perfect, we see a way to improve it, let's do > it." > > -Mary > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > As a point of interest, I already follow the devel list, and there wasn't much about the recent wiki stuff on there either. Traffic is pretty low so I wouldn't worry about subscribing and being deluged. Corey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 23:10:13 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:10:13 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05040715582debaa35@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407065445.GH8826@alcor.net> <348bd6da0504070008382a5987@mail.gmail.com> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <20050407154003.GJ8826@alcor.net> <20050407225234.GB11255@home.puzzling.org> <348bd6da05040715582debaa35@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050407231013.GC11255@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Corey Burger wrote: > As a point of interest, I already follow the devel list, and there > wasn't much about the recent wiki stuff on there either. Traffic is > pretty low so I wouldn't worry about subscribing and being deluged. There wasn't much, but it (and ubuntu-users) were notified and ubuntu-doc wasn't. Having someone specifically follow the list watching posts with a "would the doc team want to know?" eye would have been useful. (FWIW, I ended up seeing the message when doing one of my fortnightly scans of ubuntu-user looking for questions to answer.) I don't think we can work under the assumption that enough of the doc team follows ubuntu-devel (or the devel IRC channels or...) that we can just assume that everyone here will hear about relevant decisions/errors/events/news directly. It's clearly not true. And besides, the definition of "low traffic" varies depending on the person. (In my case, I follow a lot of mailing lists, and ruthlessly cull them periodically in order to keep my reading time to something reasonable. The ubuntu-devel list got cut about a month back.) -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 23:12:14 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:12:14 +1000 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> Message-ID: <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: > If noone else wants to then i can do it... I also think we should not > hit them right now, as they are all flat out, and we don't want our > cries to be missed or ignored :) You do seem to be the only volunteer atm. (If someone else pops up, you can work together anyway.) Do you have ideas about exactly what you're going to do in this position? -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 23:36:02 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:36:02 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <42550D7C.5040907@canonical.com> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> <42550D7C.5040907@canonical.com> Message-ID: <20050407233602.GE11255@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > Sean Wheller wrote: > > In general, devel should just be sensitive to the fact that we also > > have i18n stuff in our build system. So a single menu change could > > result in many smaller updates trickling through the ecosystem. On > > the side of caution, it is best to give early warning especially > > near preview and final releases. > > > On this front we've been pretty good. Even the spatial browsing > behaviour change does not affect UI or translations, though a comment > in docs would have been a good idea that I missed. I'm not sure from this comment whether you've considered the other angle of translation: not just that the doc team needs screenshots of the UI to 'freeze' early if they're to appear, but that the documents themselves also need translation, and thus the English versions of the documentation freeze fairly early. Late changes simply can't be easily documented, even if someone thinks to do so. (As someone who doesn't use Nautilus, I can't comment easily on whether the change to spatial behaviour merits a mention in our guides, the person who started this thread seemed to think it did though.) -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Thu Apr 7 23:38:16 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:38:16 +1000 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: > >>If noone else wants to then i can do it... I also think we should not >>hit them right now, as they are all flat out, and we don't want our >>cries to be missed or ignored :) > > > You do seem to be the only volunteer atm. (If someone else pops up, you > can work together anyway.) Yes, would love to have other people involved, seeing as though some weeks i get more time to pay attention than others. > > Do you have ideas about exactly what you're going to do in this > position? > Not exactly no. Off the top of my head: - Maybe a weekly round up of what is going on in the dev mailinglist, posted to the docteam list? - I could maybe post back a summary of any dev changes/additions, in regards to how it would impact documentation, so that the developers get a chance to comment and make sure my interpretation is correct. This may help to raise awareness of how development decisions could impact on documentation. This could possibly also be weekly or bi-weekly. - Possibly reviewing development change logs and summarising them from a dev team perspective? I do not currently know the best place to get this information though. I don't really hang out on the #ubuntu-dev IRC channel, so maybe some one summarising discussions from there could help also. Or i could start doing it myself :) I guess if i was to start doing this, my only fear is that i will not have much time for actual documentation contributions. My time is pretty limited right now, but i would be happy to do this task, at least for a while. Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 7 23:52:24 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:52:24 +1000 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> Message-ID: <20050407235224.GF11255@home.puzzling.org> On Fri, Apr 08, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: > - Maybe a weekly round up of what is going on in the dev mailinglist, > posted to the docteam list? > - I could maybe post back a summary of any dev changes/additions, in > regards to how it would impact documentation, so that the developers > get a chance to comment and make sure my interpretation is correct. > This may help to raise awareness of how development decisions could > impact on documentation. This could possibly also be weekly or > bi-weekly. > - Possibly reviewing development change logs and summarising them from > a dev team perspective? I do not currently know the best place to get > this information though. It all sounds good: I guess the best way to test it out would be to just start doing it, and see what comes of it. I would also like to see someone at the Technical Board meetings, and maybe at Community Council, although again I'm not volunteering (the next technical board meeting is at 4am Sydney time on a work day for me). Maybe the best thing to do for those is just to advertise them in #ubuntu-doc's topic so that people know to pop over if they want to. -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Fri Apr 8 00:05:11 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:05:11 +1000 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <20050407235224.GF11255@home.puzzling.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> <20050407235224.GF11255@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <4255CAB7.2090907@trickie.org> Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Fri, Apr 08, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: > >> - Maybe a weekly round up of what is going on in the dev mailinglist, >> posted to the docteam list? >> - I could maybe post back a summary of any dev changes/additions, in >> regards to how it would impact documentation, so that the developers >> get a chance to comment and make sure my interpretation is correct. >> This may help to raise awareness of how development decisions could >> impact on documentation. This could possibly also be weekly or >> bi-weekly. >> - Possibly reviewing development change logs and summarising them from >> a dev team perspective? I do not currently know the best place to get >> this information though. > > > It all sounds good: I guess the best way to test it out would be to just > start doing it, and see what comes of it. Right on! I will have a think about it a bit more, and try to discover alternate ways of getting information (like changelogs etc) this weekend. Then hopefully start the process next week. As someone (sorry i can't remember who) also said i will start monitoring kubuntu-devel. > > I would also like to see someone at the Technical Board meetings, and > maybe at Community Council, although again I'm not volunteering (the > next technical board meeting is at 4am Sydney time on a work day for > me). Maybe the best thing to do for those is just to advertise them in > #ubuntu-doc's topic so that people know to pop over if they want to. Well that would be 4am Melbourne time also. Maybe we need someone in a closer timezone to go to the meeting. I will try and make sure that similar meetings or events are publicized to the doc team, and then we can see who will be around at the time. Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Fri Apr 8 02:19:16 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:19:16 +1000 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> Message-ID: <20050408021915.GA11937@home.puzzling.org> On Fri, Apr 08, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: > - Maybe a weekly round up of what is going on in the dev mailinglist, > posted to the docteam list? It was pointed out to me out of band that Mako already does a Ubuntu Traffic summary, so there shouldn't be any need for a second weekly summary of the whole list. A documentation oriented partial summary might be a better use of your time (and you could feed off Ubuntu Traffic too). -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Fri Apr 8 02:21:44 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:21:44 +1000 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <20050408021915.GA11937@home.puzzling.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> <20050408021915.GA11937@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <4255EAB8.4080908@trickie.org> Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Fri, Apr 08, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: > >> - Maybe a weekly round up of what is going on in the dev mailinglist, >> posted to the docteam list? > > > It was pointed out to me out of band that Mako already does a Ubuntu > Traffic summary, so there shouldn't be any need for a second weekly > summary of the whole list. No not at all. A documentation oriented partial summary > might be a better use of your time (and you could feed off Ubuntu > Traffic too). Yep! Thats sort of what i meant. Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From matthew.east at breathe.com Fri Apr 8 06:29:28 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 07:29:28 +0100 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <4255EAB8.4080908@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> <20050408021915.GA11937@home.puzzling.org> <4255EAB8.4080908@trickie.org> Message-ID: >>> - Maybe a weekly round up of what is going on in the dev mailinglist, >>> posted to the docteam list? >> >> It was pointed out to me out of band that Mako already does a Ubuntu >> Traffic summary, so there shouldn't be any need for a second weekly >> summary of the whole list. > > No not at all. Its not necessarily a good idea to rely on Ubuntu Traffic IMO, although mako does an almost impossible job very well, it comes out some time later (the latest one is 4th february atm), and not necessarily all the relevant topics for the docteam will be covered. However I agree with you that a formal weekly round up of what's going on in the dev ML is not necessarily: just: > A documentation oriented partial summary >> might be a better use of your time (and you could feed off Ubuntu >> Traffic too). As far as the technical board meeting is concerned, 4am in Australia is bound to be a reasonable time here in London so I'll look it up and try and be there. Maybe we can agree on an ad hoc basis who is available to attend future ones. I will start making a point of going to the CC meetings at any rate. However these ARE summarised quickly and efficiently. Its just a question of making sure people are aware of any docteam implications of our decisions, and I think the Technical Board is the most important one from that point of view. M From matthew.east at breathe.com Fri Apr 8 06:32:14 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 07:32:14 +0100 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> <20050408021915.GA11937@home.puzzling.org> <4255EAB8.4080908@trickie.org> Message-ID: > As far as the technical board meeting is concerned, 4am in Australia is > bound to be a reasonable time here in London so I'll look it up and try > and be there. Maybe we can agree on an ad hoc basis who is available to > attend future ones. yeah I've just looked it up and that will be fine. Do we wish to add the discussion that we've been having about docteam/develteam interaction to their agenda for discussion? M From ubuntu at trickie.org Fri Apr 8 06:54:33 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:54:33 +1000 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> <20050408021915.GA11937@home.puzzling.org> <4255EAB8.4080908@trickie.org> Message-ID: <42562AA9.304@trickie.org> matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > yeah I've just looked it up and that will be fine. Do we wish to add the > discussion that we've been having about docteam/develteam interaction to > their agenda for discussion? Yep. May as well make it known. > M From jjesse at iserv.net Fri Apr 8 13:30:29 2005 From: jjesse at iserv.net (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <25017.206.114.48.34.1112967029.squirrel@206.114.48.34> Are we looking for just someone to monitor the dev-team mailing list? Then I guess I could look into it. What exactly are you looking for from this person? > On Thu, Apr 07, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: >> If noone else wants to then i can do it... I also think we should not >> hit them right now, as they are all flat out, and we don't want our >> cries to be missed or ignored :) > > You do seem to be the only volunteer atm. (If someone else pops up, you > can work together anyway.) > > Do you have ideas about exactly what you're going to do in this > position? > > -Mary > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > > -- Jonathan Jesse From paroz at email.ch Fri Apr 8 19:50:54 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:50:54 +0200 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1112989854.11764.9.camel@paroz> Le jeudi 07 avril 2005 ? 10:18 +0200, Sean Wheller a ?crit : (...) > > On our part we also need to be more vigilant. I highly recommend that all > authors document against development and not the preview releases. Post Hoary > this means updating your apt sources, doing regular reloads of the sources > lists and performing upgrades as the come in. For next version this means > that the authors platform may become unstable. I normally do this work on a > lab machine. Not everybody has this luxury, so if anyone has suggestions on > how to do this, please speak now. > I think it should be possible to have two releases on the same PC, thanks to debootstrap and chroot. I'm not geek enough to give clear explanations, but I'm sure someone would. Something like: sudo apt-get install debootstrap sudo mkdir /breezy-chroot debootstrap hoary /breezy-chroot http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ To be continued (on the Wiki)... Claude From matthew.east at breathe.com Fri Apr 8 23:26:31 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 00:26:31 +0100 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1112989854.11764.9.camel@paroz> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112989854.11764.9.camel@paroz> Message-ID: <1113002791.6775.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> > I think it should be possible to have two releases on the same PC, > thanks to debootstrap and chroot. I'm not geek enough to give clear > explanations, but I'm sure someone would. > Something like: I may be missing something, but surely just installing a hedgehog on one partition and a badger on another would do the trick? This chroot stuff makes me go cross-eyed. M From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Fri Apr 8 23:51:52 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:51:52 +1000 Subject: Recent changes to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <1113002791.6775.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <20050407072017.GI8826@alcor.net> <200504071018.38504.sean@inwords.co.za> <1112989854.11764.9.camel@paroz> <1113002791.6775.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050408235152.GB8258@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> > > I think it should be possible to have two releases on the same PC, > > thanks to debootstrap and chroot. I'm not geek enough to give clear > > explanations, but I'm sure someone would. > > Something like: > > I may be missing something, but surely just installing a hedgehog on one > partition and a badger on another would do the trick? This chroot stuff > makes me go cross-eyed. I think the idea is to be able to run breezy without having to reboot into it. UML images of breezy would also makethis possible I think. For people who are willing to reboot, what about LiveCDs? Obviously you can't document the installer with them, but what about the desktop? -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Mon Apr 11 02:31:35 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:31:35 +1000 Subject: Development monitoring (Re: Recent changes to Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: <4255CAB7.2090907@trickie.org> References: <348bd6da0504062056490c3e0e@mail.gmail.com> <20050407041748.GD3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254B734.10606@trickie.org> <348bd6da050406213458b88251@mail.gmail.com> <4254B991.3080306@trickie.org> <20050407044643.GF3457@home.puzzling.org> <4254BD76.4030903@trickie.org> <20050407231214.GD11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255C468.9000204@trickie.org> <20050407235224.GF11255@home.puzzling.org> <4255CAB7.2090907@trickie.org> Message-ID: <4259E187.1010008@trickie.org> Nick Loeve wrote: > Mary Gardiner wrote: > >>On Fri, Apr 08, 2005, Nick Loeve wrote: >> >> >>>- Maybe a weekly round up of what is going on in the dev mailinglist, >>> posted to the docteam list? >>>- I could maybe post back a summary of any dev changes/additions, in >>> regards to how it would impact documentation, so that the developers >>> get a chance to comment and make sure my interpretation is correct. >>> This may help to raise awareness of how development decisions could >>> impact on documentation. This could possibly also be weekly or >>> bi-weekly. >>>- Possibly reviewing development change logs and summarising them from >>> a dev team perspective? I do not currently know the best place to get >>> this information though. >> >> >>It all sounds good: I guess the best way to test it out would be to just >>start doing it, and see what comes of it. > > > Right on! I will have a think about it a bit more, and try to discover > alternate ways of getting information (like changelogs etc) this > weekend. Then hopefully start the process next week. I didn't get a chance to really think about this on the weekend. I will be trying to followup this week. :) Just thought i'd let you know. > > As someone (sorry i can't remember who) also said i will start > monitoring kubuntu-devel. > > >>I would also like to see someone at the Technical Board meetings, and >>maybe at Community Council, although again I'm not volunteering (the >>next technical board meeting is at 4am Sydney time on a work day for >>me). Maybe the best thing to do for those is just to advertise them in >>#ubuntu-doc's topic so that people know to pop over if they want to. > > > Well that would be 4am Melbourne time also. Maybe we need someone in a > closer timezone to go to the meeting. I will try and make sure that > similar meetings or events are publicized to the doc team, and then we > can see who will be around at the time. > > Cheers > trickie (Nick Loeve) > From john at technolalia.org Mon Apr 11 15:33:53 2005 From: john at technolalia.org (John Levin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:33:53 +0100 Subject: Mac/PPC documentation Message-ID: <5db774c03092b9b66e386c5da1a4fc77@technolalia.org> Hi folks, I've started on a comprehensive Ubuntu-on-mac howto. For the moment you can find it at: www.technolalia.org/ubuntu/ubuntuonmac.html As you can see, so far it's mainly topics that need to be covered, with just a few items sketched in. I do watch the ubuntu users list for ppc-related queries, and have an archive of nearly 500 emails to sort through. I don't have a complete collection of macs (donations gratefully accepted!) so I'll be looking for G5, MacMini, PowerBook and eMac users to fill some bits in. I feel it's too early to put it on the wiki - anyone disagree? What's the protocol for that? Suggestions, tips etc gratefully received. (and please excuse appearance of site whilst I build it) John From ryan at ryanthiessen.com Mon Apr 11 23:35:00 2005 From: ryan at ryanthiessen.com (Ryan Thiessen) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Write a Howto on the Wiki Message-ID: I wrote a howto-esque guide on how to compile applications on Ubuntu. Someone suggested this should be on the wiki so I put it up on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CompilingEasyHowTo because I didn't know where else it should go It's in html format still instead of the usual markup formats, because I just quickly ported it from my existing text. If someone wants to edit that for formatting or content please do. If I put it in the wrong place or if it needs to be removed, please reparent or delete it as necessary. Any replies to me please cc me as I'm not subscribed to the list. Cheers, -rt- From freiss at gmx.de Tue Apr 12 09:18:25 2005 From: freiss at gmx.de (Florian Reiss) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:18:25 +0200 Subject: OT: Free / Open Source Software Survey Message-ID: <200504121118.25160.freiss@gmx.de> Dear ubuntu-doc subscribers, I am sorry for interrupting your discussion but maybe you are interested in participating in a scientific survey... I am currently writing my masters thesis in Psychology at the University of Cologne, Germany. I am writing my thesis about the open source community i.e. experiences of developers and users with the open source community. By filling out a questionnaire I designed you would help me to find out about personal motivations for knowledge sharing and cooperation in software projects and software communities. I would be very grateful if you could take 5-10 minutes of your time to help me and would appreciate your experts opinion on the matter. If you are interested in taking part in this survey please use the link below to get to the questionnaire. In case you are not interested or too busy you may simply erase this email. Thank you in advance for your help! Link to the questionnaire: http://www.unipark.de/uc/survey/index.php3?a=udoc Details about the survey: * The questionnaire is in English and in German. * At the end of the online questionnaire you can take part in a raffle initiated by me. * The investigation is done anonymously which means that no personalised links (invitation to the survey with an individual parameter) are used. * The parameter "udoc" is just used for methodical reasons in order to know how you have been invited to the questionnaire. * The investigation is done by a partially standardised questionnaire (open and closed questions). * No cookies are set. * All participants will have access to the quantitative statistics on my website. * When the survey period has finished the completely anonymous data set will be offered for download. Best regards, Florian Reiss --- Florian Reiss freiss at gmx.de 59BE B457 80F3 EB5C C7B6 88F8 B373 FA57 1C53 407B -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 12 09:45:56 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:45:56 +0100 Subject: Write a Howto on the Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ryan Thiessen writes: > I wrote a howto-esque guide on how to compile applications on Ubuntu. > Someone suggested this should be on the wiki so I put it up on > https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CompilingEasyHowTo because I didn't know > where else it should go > > It's in html format still instead of the usual markup formats, because I > just quickly ported it from my existing text. If someone wants to edit > that for formatting or content please do. If I put it in the wrong place > or if it needs to be removed, please reparent or delete it as necessary. > > Any replies to me please cc me as I'm not subscribed to the list. Hi Ryan, thanks very much for the document: it will be very useful for users! I've converted it into MoinMoin format, which is the standard markup on the Ubuntu wiki: hope this is ok! thanks again for the work, Matt From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 12 13:19:38 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:19:38 +0100 Subject: translating quickguide - thoughts post hoary In-Reply-To: <1113307689.8994.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1112817325.7911.25.camel@paroz> <42550465.5000600@canonical.com> <1113307689.8994.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: I've reinserted ubuntu-doc into CC for this message. The thing that worried me the most when starting this thread was that the only translation that we pulled out of Rosetta for the Hoary release (de) had some problems when we converted it to xml, due to (i think?) a different type of character set. I also noted that the quickguide didn't make it into Rosetta (is there a problem with it?) For these reasons I was asking about whether Rosetta is the best way to continue translation of docteam documentation (obviously it has many advantages, the primary one being that many people can work on it at the same time without difficulties with coordination). Can we work out a way to solve these problems? Is it possible to insert the larger of the docteam documents into Rosetta, and were the problems that we experiences caused by our po. generation methods/ xml generation methods? As for screenshots, I think that since it is very difficult to get a way of uploading these to Rosetta, it is not exactly a problem for the docteam to install language packs and take the screenshots in the relevant languages. I don't think that would require too much work on our part. Matt From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 12 21:28:32 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:28:32 +0100 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: The issues which has been discussed in this list of last minute changes to Ubuntu impacting on the documentation team was raised at the Technical Board meeting this evening. Matt Zimmerman concluded that the best solution was for us to factor the documentation into the release cycle, so that it is clear when things are going to freeze, and when we can expect that no further changes will occur. Obviously it is possible that things don't go to plan, and in that event, it is important that the docteam will be informed: Matt said that this would not be too difficult, because such changes require authorisation. He mentioned that the issue of release cycles will be discussed at UbuntuDownUnder, and requested: mdz: if you can send me 1) a list of items that we should be aware of which affect documentation (artwork? translations? desktop behaviour?), and 2) a conservative estimate of the time it would take to adjust for a change in one of those areas mdz: then I will feed that into the discussion in Sydney What are people's opinions on this? Perhaps we can put together a wiki page. Matt From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 12 22:36:38 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:36:38 +1000 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050412223638.GD30466@home.puzzling.org> On Tue, Apr 12, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > What are people's opinions on this? Perhaps we can put together a wiki > page. It sounds worthy of a docteam IRC meeting to me actually, at least to beat out the general outline of the problem. Wiki pages etc are much slower moving and might be better founded off a discussion. -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Tue Apr 12 22:49:19 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:49:19 +1000 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050412223638.GD30466@home.puzzling.org> References: <20050412223638.GD30466@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <425C506F.9020909@trickie.org> Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Tue, Apr 12, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > >>What are people's opinions on this? Perhaps we can put together a wiki >>page. > > > It sounds worthy of a docteam IRC meeting to me actually, at least to > beat out the general outline of the problem. Wiki pages etc are much > slower moving and might be better founded off a discussion. +1 From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 12 23:52:36 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 00:52:36 +0100 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <425C506F.9020909@trickie.org> References: <20050412223638.GD30466@home.puzzling.org> <425C506F.9020909@trickie.org> Message-ID: >> It sounds worthy of a docteam IRC meeting to me actually, at least to >> beat out the general outline of the problem. Wiki pages etc are much >> slower moving and might be better founded off a discussion. > > +1 yep i'm cool with that too. Sorry for forgetting to give a subject to this thread! M From jgotangco at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 02:12:38 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:12:38 +0800 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050412223638.GD30466@home.puzzling.org> References: <20050412223638.GD30466@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: +1 we should do this anytime now since UDU is just around the corner Jerome On 4/13/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Tue, Apr 12, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > > What are people's opinions on this? Perhaps we can put together a wiki > > page. > > It sounds worthy of a docteam IRC meeting to me actually, at least to > beat out the general outline of the problem. Wiki pages etc are much > slower moving and might be better founded off a discussion. > > -Mary From aareed at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 04:55:50 2005 From: aareed at gmail.com (aareed) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:55:50 -0600 Subject: Greetings to all Message-ID: <1e806da30504122155aec60ba@mail.gmail.com> Greetings to the Ubuntu Documentation Team. I'm a new Ubuntu user as of the Hoary release, and have been very impressed by the project and the OS. Since I'm not much of a coder, I'd love to help give back to the community by working with the documentation team. Hopefully this is an appropriate place to introduce myself. What I bring to the table: excellent writing and editing skills. My fiction has been published and I currently work part time writing for a travel website. I have excellent general computer skills although I am relatively new to Linux (Ubuntu is my third distro after futzing with Mandrake and Red Hat in the past few years.) I've worked with HTML and programming before and am comfortable (though not necessarily happy) with the command line and related Linux concepts. >From an overview of the wiki and recent list activity, it looks like you guys are regrouping and taking care of administrative details in the wake of the Hoary release. I'll probably lurk for a while to get up to speed, although if anyone wants, feel free to contact me via the list or private e-mail with questions or suggestions for projects to work on. Thanks--I'm looking forward to participating! --Aaron A. Reed From jgotangco at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 05:17:05 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:17:05 +0800 Subject: Greetings to all In-Reply-To: <1e806da30504122155aec60ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e806da30504122155aec60ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Greetings Aaron! We hope to see you in #ubuntu-doc where we usually convene! Jerome On 4/13/05, aareed wrote: > Greetings to the Ubuntu Documentation Team. > > I'm a new Ubuntu user as of the Hoary release, and have been very > impressed by the project and the OS. Since I'm not much of a coder, > I'd love to help give back to the community by working with the > documentation team. Hopefully this is an appropriate place to > introduce myself. > > What I bring to the table: excellent writing and editing skills. My > fiction has been published and I currently work part time writing for > a travel website. I have excellent general computer skills although I > am relatively new to Linux (Ubuntu is my third distro after futzing > with Mandrake and Red Hat in the past few years.) I've worked with > HTML and programming before and am comfortable (though not necessarily > happy) with the command line and related Linux concepts. > > >From an overview of the wiki and recent list activity, it looks like > you guys are regrouping and taking care of administrative details in > the wake of the Hoary release. I'll probably lurk for a while to get > up to speed, although if anyone wants, feel free to contact me via the > list or private e-mail with questions or suggestions for projects to > work on. > > Thanks--I'm looking forward to participating! > > --Aaron A. Reed > From corey.burger at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 05:25:27 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:25:27 -0700 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <348bd6da050412222556ab568c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050412223638.GD30466@home.puzzling.org> <348bd6da050412222556ab568c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <348bd6da0504122225480083a1@mail.gmail.com> On 4/12/05, Corey Burger wrote: > > On 4/12/05, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > > > > +1 we should do this anytime now since UDU is just around the corner > > > > Jerome > > > > On 4/13/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > > > > What are people's opinions on this? Perhaps we can put together a > > wiki > > > > page. > > > > > > It sounds worthy of a docteam IRC meeting to me actually, at least to > > > beat out the general outline of the problem. Wiki pages etc are much > > > slower moving and might be better founded off a discussion. > > > > > > -Mary > > > > -- > > ubuntu-doc mailing list > > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > > sounds good -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 13 05:45:45 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:45:45 +0200 Subject: Greetings to all In-Reply-To: <1e806da30504122155aec60ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e806da30504122155aec60ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504130745.50525.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 13 April 2005 06:55, aareed wrote: > Thanks--I'm looking forward to participating! Hello aareed, You are correct, we are just in the process of regrouping. However, you are most welcome, we always need writers. Don't worry about the technical stuff, we will help you though it. I think you will find the team very good in that respect. Look forward to seeing you on our IRC channel #ubuntu-doc. I assume you already found http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam . If you have any questions, let us know. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 13 06:01:42 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:01:42 +0200 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <348bd6da0504122225480083a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da050412222556ab568c@mail.gmail.com> <348bd6da0504122225480083a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504130801.46489.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 13 April 2005 07:25, Corey Burger wrote: > On 4/12/05, Corey Burger wrote: > > On 4/12/05, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > +1 we should do this anytime now since UDU is just around the corner > > Jerome > > On 4/13/05, Mary Gardiner < mary-sounder at puzzling.org> wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > > > What are people's opinions on this? Perhaps we can put together a wiki > > > page. > > > > It sounds worthy of a docteam IRC meeting to me actually, at least to > > beat out the general outline of the problem. Wiki pages etc are much > > slower moving and might be better founded off a discussion. +1 -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Wed Apr 13 06:49:31 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:49:31 +1000 Subject: Doc team IRC meeting before Ubuntu Down Under Message-ID: <20050413064931.GA334@home.puzzling.org> Since I suggested this and there have been a few +1s on the subject, I'll take responsibility for organisating it (I hope I'm not stomping on someone's turf here -- I believe Enrico is not easily contactable right now...) The date of the meeting will be sometime next week (that is, before the 23rd April when people start arriving at UDU). I will aim to announce the time within the next 48 hours so I'd appreciate some help planning. Can everyone interested in attending the meeting please update the wiki at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamNextIRCMeeting with their preferred times? If you add an agenda item please *also* post to the mailing list explaining your addition. -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Wed Apr 13 06:52:32 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:52:32 +1000 Subject: Doc team IRC meeting before Ubuntu Down Under In-Reply-To: <20050413064931.GA334@home.puzzling.org> References: <20050413064931.GA334@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <20050413065232.GB334@home.puzzling.org> On Wed, Apr 13, 2005, Mary Gardiner wrote: > I'll take responsibility for organisating it (I hope I'm not stomping on ^^ sorry... I don't usually waste bandwidth by correcting my own typos, but... that one was really bad and not intentional :) -Mary From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 13 07:13:55 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:13:55 +0200 Subject: Merging back to trunk Message-ID: <200504130913.58854.sean@inwords.co.za> Hello everyone, I have merged the retrusture branch back to trunk this morning. People the make system is still under devel but the moving of folders etc is done and everyone can work on trunk. Thanks -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 13 09:38:55 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:38:55 +0200 Subject: Update DocteamProjects Message-ID: <200504131138.55594.sean@inwords.co.za> Hello, Since the merge back to trunk is now complete I have updated https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 13 10:36:13 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:36:13 +0100 Subject: Update DocteamProjects In-Reply-To: <200504131138.55594.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504131138.55594.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: > Since the merge back to trunk is now complete I have updated > https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects. Just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work you've been doing on our tree! Looking forward to working with the new structure. Matt From jgotangco at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 14:26:28 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:26:28 +0800 Subject: Update DocteamProjects In-Reply-To: <200504131138.55594.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504131138.55594.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: Just to add on this (as pointed out by Sean in the #ubuntu-doc), there are a number of documents (from the restructuring from branch to trunk) that needs to be fixed, mostly those that have to refer to images (screenshots, icons, etc.) Jerome On 4/13/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > Hello, > > Since the merge back to trunk is now complete I have updated > https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects. -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph Ubuntu Local Community Philippine Team http://www.ubuntu-ph.org From jeffschering at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 19:13:05 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:13:05 -0700 Subject: A GUI application for writers Message-ID: Hi all I have been thinking lately of ways to reduce the technologoical barriers to participation for writers who are new to the Ubuntu Docteam. Writers have to learn how to access the svn repos, how to commit (or create diffs until they have commit permission), and how to use DocBook. Accessing the svn repos is made easier by eSvn, but I think more could be done. As a matter of fact, it was eSvn that inspired me to think about the possibility of greater automation of the process. I tried to think of a single gui application that would help to reduce the tech barriers. In short, the app would handle all connections and communications with the repos in the background at a higher level than eSvn does, while at the same time providing an environment for browsing and editing DocBook docs. It would be the only app that a writer or editor needs in order to contribute to the project. The application contains the following gui features: - standard menus - toolbar across the top - a tree view on the left - a document pane on the right - a message pane across the bottom On first startup, the app sets up the working copy. On subsequent startups, the app updates the working copy. The app displays this activity in the message pane, but does not require any input from the writer. The app knows where the Ubuntu docteam repos is - the writer shouldn't have to do anything to specify the repos. The writer should only have to enter the proper username and password for the repos. When a DocBook file is opened, the app shows a tree view of the document structure. Only block level elements are shown in the tree view. Clicking on one of the tree view items displays that block in the document pane. If you click on a item in the tree view, then only that section and its contents (including other nested elements such as ) are displayed. If you click on a tag, then only that paragraph and its contents are displayed. (To see similar, but not exact, functionality, open a DocBook file in the Screem web editor) The document pane has two modes: raw DocBook, and What You See Is One Option (WYSIOO). The toolbar has a build button. Clicking on the build button brings up a dialog where you can choose to build html (all one page, or one page per chapter, or whatever), pdf, or some other format. The toolbar also has a validate button. Clicking the validate button causes the app to validate the current file against the appropriate DTD. The toolbar also has a commit button. If you have appropriate permissions, clicking on the commit button will commit the changes to the repos. If you do not have the appropriate permissions, clicking on the commit button will create a diff and send it to the appropriate email address. Clicking on the commit button may also cause the app to produce an output in Moin and update a wiki page somewhere. The application has one or more dialogs, used for - selecting xslt's - managing repositories (passwords, locations, type, etc) - managing the working copy (importing files, deleting files, etc) - selecting transformation tools (xsltproc, jade, etc) - managing DTD's The application integrates smoothly with the translation system. (Rosetta, .pot and .po files) If you are having trouble imagining the app, think of the marriage of eSvn and a web editor such as Screem, except most of the eSvn functionality is behind the scenes and only visible in the message pane. It sounds "blue sky", but I think it's doable. I tried to think of a name for the app. Barrier ReDuction came to mind (BRD) which sounds like "birdie". Birds like to fly free in the blue sky, so perhaps "birdie" is appropriate. Is there anything else needed to make this the only app that a writer or editor would need in order to contibute to the project? Would it be worth trying to talk some devels into working on it? Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From ubuntu at trickie.org Wed Apr 13 22:52:32 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:52:32 +1000 Subject: Update DocteamProjects In-Reply-To: References: <200504131138.55594.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <425DA2B0.1060306@trickie.org> matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: >> Since the merge back to trunk is now complete I have updated >> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects. > > > Just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work you've been doing on our > tree! Looking forward to working with the new structure. > Matt > +1 Great work Sean! From jjesse at iserv.net Thu Apr 14 02:09:09 2005 From: jjesse at iserv.net (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:09:09 -0400 Subject: Update DocteamProjects In-Reply-To: <425DA2B0.1060306@trickie.org> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: ubuntu-doc-bounces at lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-doc-bounces at lists.ubuntu.com]On Behalf Of Nick Loeve Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 6:53 PM To: Ubuntu Doc List Subject: Re: Update DocteamProjects matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: >> Since the merge back to trunk is now complete I have updated >> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects. > > > Just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work you've been doing on our > tree! Looking forward to working with the new structure. > Matt > +1 Great work Sean! -- +1 +1 Looks great. I would like to throw my hat in the ring to help w/ the Kubuntu docs as that is what I use 90% of the time From jgotangco at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 03:11:05 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:11:05 +0800 Subject: A GUI application for writers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have something similiar in mind but I'd like to share this too: 1. It would also be possible to import at least an HTML document to be converted to DocBook. In the application everything is still WYSIWYG but due to xml magic its already a DocBook in reality. Import capabilities can probably accelerate moving some wiki stuff to DocBook. 2. Authoring modes - Mode 1 for simple/beginner/wysiwyg. Mode 2 shows the whole stuff. Jerome On 4/14/05, Jeff Schering wrote: > Hi all > > I have been thinking lately of ways to reduce the technologoical > barriers to participation for writers who are new to the Ubuntu > Docteam. -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 14 13:52:54 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:52:54 +0200 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas Message-ID: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> Not sure I agree with everything said here, but it is still worthwhile critique as it indicates may valid points where we need to focus on documentation. For brevity I have excerpted the stuff relevant to documentation. The full critique can be read at http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2005/04/11/ubuntu (if the bandwidth has not been exceeded). The real problem I have with what Mathew Thomas is saying, is, that it is all well and good to give critique but, since he is subscribed to the docteam mailing list, it would also be good if he joined us and delivered his ideas during development. It is easy to stand on a box and pull apart final creations, not so easy to actually take part in building them. The other issue is that Mathew, with or without intention, seems to miss one very important point. The part of the community developing the docs on a constant basis is small and most of them don't want formal approaches to anything. The contributions come from people who do it for no money. We don't have "documentation bounties" and it is hard to see how authors can make any sort of living from open-source. The work of the docteam are much appreciated 'gifts,' as such, I nor anyone else, has the right to mandate what contributors will give. As a result, what we 'need to do' and what we 'want to do' are often very different things. Faced with formal approach we lost most of our contributors. When we left it informal, we got people willing to do things because it was what they wanted to do. I don't entirely agree with this approach, the results can be seen in Mathews "most excellent critique," but so it was. The docs is svn have only been in development since xmas 2004 and the whole process of developing them is new to Ubuntu. In six months we did allot considering the circumstances. Hopefully this time around we will get greater cooperation in the form of contributions and opinions from authors, users, developers and Mathew :-) My comments are below. Start excerpt ============ The help system Mathew: 65. Computerized help systems have to be very, very helpful if people will ever bother using them rather than asking a nearby human. The first step to achieving this level of helpfulness is always being ready for use within about one second of being summoned. Unfortunately, Ubuntu?s help system (on this laptop, at least) takes about eight seconds. Sean: It would be helpful to know the hardware platform running on Mathews computer and how many other processes he was running during this test. I have run the same test and have yet to find 8 seconds. One of the systems is a P1 with 128MB RAM. My feeling is that Yelp, while having its drawbacks, is comparable with most help systems in the time it takes to load and find information and while it is not the ideal tool, it is what we have in GNOME. It would be great if some developers actually enhanced and improved Yelp. Alas they do not. Mathew: 66. The front page of the help system contains seven items, which are worth examining in detail, because they demonstrate how users and developers ? even documentation developers ? think about things in different ways. Sean: Agreed. They do think in different ways. Personally I would like to extend an invitation to Mathew to please make suggestions. Mathew: * ?Desktop?. This makes the unwarranted assumption that people will consider the items in Gnome?s panels, for example, to be part of the ?desktop?, rather than being above or below the desktop. * ?Applications?. This makes the unwarranted assumption that people visiting the top-level help page ? that is, people seeking help without having started any particular program ? will nevertheless know what ?application? they need to use for the thing they want to do. * ?Other Documentation?. ?Other? is a slippery word: it works only if the rest of the categories are already clear, and they?re not. * ?Man Pages?. Teeheeheehee. * ?About Ubuntu?. This isn?t help, it?s a manifesto. Nothing wrong with manifestos, but they don?t belong on the front page of a help system. Sean: Correct it was only supposed to show from System > About Ubuntu and ended up in Yelp also. Mathew: * ?Hoary Release Notes?. Again, this is interesting information, but it?s not help. Sean: Not help to who? After an upgrade most people look for the Release Notes to find help on what is new. Perhaps there is no need for it in Yelp? Perhaps we should put it in System > Release Notes Mathew: * ?Ubuntu Quick Guide?. This is a cool idea, but unfortunately what?s provided is not a quick guide. A quick guide would be one printable page, explaining (a) how to find programs, (b) how to find your files, (c) how to turn off the computer, and (d) how to get more help. Instead, the Ubuntu ?Quick Guide? is dozens of pages long. Sean: Fair enough. I challenge Mathew to please, in one printable page, explain a-d. Perhaps, instead of calling it "Quick Guide" it should have been "Quick Tour." Perhaps, since we have more people on the team now, we can apply Methews model for the next version. I doubt it will be one page. In general, I think we all agree with Mathew and Corey has pointed out some good examples that we can use to base our ideas on. Mathew: Part of the problem is that the Guide is greatly caught up in its own minutiae. For example, it contains this morsel: ?Also in this release is the FAQ Guide which was ported from the Ubuntu Wiki to Docbook and is now a permanent feature of the Ubuntu documentation project.? If you know too much to understand the problem with that sentence, here it is again, translated into a simulation of how a regular person would understand it: ?Also in this spurt is the Worple Guide which was worpled from the Ubuntu Worple to Worple and is now a permanent feature of the Ubuntu worple worple.? I?m one of the 0.000002 percent of humans who are subscribed to the Ubuntu Documentation mailing list, and they?re lovely people, but even I just don?t care about this kind of administrivia. How will reading this help anyone use Ubuntu? It won?t. Sean: Agreed. A real help system would have items on its front page like ?Connecting to the Internet?, ?Using files from Windows?, ?Printing?, ?Chatting online?, ?Playing music?, ?Making CDs and DVDs?, and ?Troubleshooting?. Sean: Mathew assumes that all users are of his psychographic profile and level of computer proficiency. In an ideal world help systems would be based on User Groups. So if you are an administrator you would get 'administrative topics' and if you are a user you will get 'user topics.' Unfortunately the help systems today are just not that advanced. So we need to provide context to our help topics. Mathew: 67. Having said all that, people have become used to the idea that systems designed for browsing will be poorly organized and out of date (which is why search engines are more popular than Web directories, for example), so what they usually do instead is search. Unfortunately, Ubuntu?s help system doesn?t even have a search function. Sean: Let's correct that. GNOME Yelp does not have a search function. Personally, I think we should not use yelp at all, rather stick to HTML and CSS under ANY BROWSER. However, the docteam authors, at the time, wanted Yelp or nothing. Mathew: 68. Inside the help system, help for the majority of programs is written in the form of a book. (For example, and I?m sorry to pick on the Ubuntu Quick Guide one more time, its very first information-containing page says insolently that ?admonitions will be found throughout the book?.) Books are useful, but they do not belong in on-screen help systems. On-screen help needs to be written in a different style, with a different tone, and at much shorter length. Sean: Yes this is a general problem across all Linux help systems. Help is not really help but a collection of 'User Manuals.' Hence the help system should rather be called 'manual system.' On the otherhand, manuals are a form of help. I think what Mathew wants from a Linux help system is content sensitive help where short texts are shown in tip messages. Something like th e"What's this?" in Windows. So if you click a checkbox on a dialog with the "What's this?" you will get a short definition of the checkbox. Nice, but a royal PITA to implement and maintain when you have a handfull of contributors. All in all, Mathew has provided us with valuable input for which, personally, I am gratefull. I do however think that Mathew should, when making critique, place his comments in context of the technology the developers have at hand and the environment in which they are developing. Slating something just because you can, is not productive unless people understand the contexts. Don't get me wrong Mathew, I value input, but as a wise man once said to me, "Don't bring me problems I know about without suggesting a solution." It is easy to look on in and throw in 2c went the work is over. My suggestion is that Mathew join the docteam and get to understand documentation in context of open source better. Sitting on a Mac, looking in, then having a say will not give your critique much weight in the long run. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 14:11:47 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 07:11:47 -0700 Subject: part in faq about mono looks out of date In-Reply-To: <1113487283.14837.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1113487283.14837.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <348bd6da0504140711632b44f9@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/05, Kristof Vansant wrote: > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > > -- > lupusBE (Kristof Vansant Belgium) > FAQ's and howtos are maintained by the Ubuntu doc team, as well as viewers like you. We welcome your input. Please don't post back on ubuntu-devel, as they have better things to talk about. Corey From jjesse at iserv.net Thu Apr 14 15:43:54 2005 From: jjesse at iserv.net (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas In-Reply-To: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <29421.206.114.48.34.1113493434.squirrel@206.114.48.34> I read that "Critque" and was frankly turned off how worthwhile the whole bit was. It seemed like someone wasn't happy with Ubuntu and had an axe to grind. Most of it seemed like he had tried to make some "improvements" or suggestions to Ubuntu and then when it was rejected took his ball home and decided to slam the distro as a whole. I am curious as to see what exactly he would consider a great distrobution and what his "target audience" was. Have of the problems he had seemed more like a Gnome related problem that one would find w/ any distro out there. Am I mistaken? I am not the most knowledgeable linux expert out there yet I found myself thinking about how I didn't care about half the stuff he was talking about. From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 15:47:58 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:47:58 -0700 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas In-Reply-To: <29421.206.114.48.34.1113493434.squirrel@206.114.48.34> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> <29421.206.114.48.34.1113493434.squirrel@206.114.48.34> Message-ID: <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/05, Jonathan Jesse wrote: > I read that "Critque" and was frankly turned off how worthwhile the whole > bit was. It seemed like someone wasn't happy with Ubuntu and had an axe > to grind. Most of it seemed like he had tried to make some "improvements" > or suggestions to Ubuntu and then when it was rejected took his ball home > and decided to slam the distro as a whole. > > I am curious as to see what exactly he would consider a great distrobution > and what his "target audience" was. Have of the problems he had seemed > more like a Gnome related problem that one would find w/ any distro out > there. Am I mistaken? I am not the most knowledgeable linux expert out > there yet I found myself thinking about how I didn't care about half the > stuff he was talking about. > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > Couple of points 1. He works for canonical 2. He is quite right* 3. I agree with him* *on most things To be blunt and too the point. We chatted on IRC today. He is going to be at the next Docteam irc meeting to share his views. Corey From matthew.east at breathe.com Thu Apr 14 16:03:00 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:03:00 +0100 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> <29421.206.114.48.34.1113493434.squirrel@206.114.48.34> <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 4/14/05, Jonathan Jesse wrote: >> I read that "Critque" and was frankly turned off how worthwhile the whole >> bit was. It seemed like someone wasn't happy with Ubuntu and had an axe >> to grind. Most of it seemed like he had tried to make some "improvements" >> or suggestions to Ubuntu and then when it was rejected took his ball home >> and decided to slam the distro as a whole. {snip} > Couple of points > 1. He works for canonical > 2. He is quite right* > 3. I agree with him* > *on most things I have to say I also agree: it doesn't matter that many of the errors he points out are due to lack of resources/time in our team, and are focused on a particular user base: IMO the user base he focuses on is exactly the one which can most benefit from local help, and I think that we should not take his points as criticism of our efforts, but rather useful indications for improvement, time permitting. > To be blunt and too the point. We chatted on IRC today. He is going > to be at the next Docteam irc meeting to share his views. Yes I noticed that :) Will we therefore be discussing other matters than simply the question of freeze policy as requested by Matt Z? I think we have some things to talk about apart from this and would be happy to turn it into a full blown meeting. M From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 16:14:40 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:14:40 -0700 Subject: Standard image size for Quickguide for Breezy Message-ID: <348bd6da0504140914122a133b@mail.gmail.com> I think we should set a standard and maximum image size for the quickguide and other docs for breezy. This is due to horizontal space limitations with people with inferior^H^H^H^Hcrt monitors I am thinking 200 to 300 pixels in size. Comments? Corey From matthew.east at breathe.com Thu Apr 14 16:18:27 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:18:27 +0100 Subject: Standard image size for Quickguide for Breezy In-Reply-To: <348bd6da0504140914122a133b@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da0504140914122a133b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Corey Burger writes: > I think we should set a standard and maximum image size for the > quickguide and other docs for breezy. This is due to horizontal space > limitations with people with inferior^H^H^H^Hcrt monitors > > I am thinking 200 to 300 pixels in size. I agree, also another consideration which supports this idea is file size. I would favour having a MAX rather than a standard as obviously every screenshot has different requirements (e.g. firefox vs. gnome cdplayer) M From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 14 16:11:10 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:11:10 +0200 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas In-Reply-To: References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504141811.11003.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 14 April 2005 18:03, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > I think that we should not > take his points as criticism of our efforts, but rather useful indications > for improvement, time permitting. So taken. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 14 16:13:44 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:13:44 +0200 Subject: Standard image size for Quickguide for Breezy In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da0504140914122a133b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504141813.44505.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 14 April 2005 18:18, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > Corey Burger writes: > > I think we should set a standard and maximum image size for the > > quickguide and other docs for breezy. This is due to horizontal space > > limitations with people with inferior^H^H^H^Hcrt monitors > > > > I am thinking 200 to 300 pixels in size. > > I agree, also another consideration which supports this idea is file size. > I would favour having a MAX rather than a standard as obviously every > screenshot has different requirements (e.g. firefox vs. gnome cdplayer) Problems but no solutions..... please read http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots If you have a better method state it and then update the above page. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 16:29:43 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:29:43 -0700 Subject: Standard image size for Quickguide for Breezy In-Reply-To: <200504141813.44505.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <348bd6da0504140914122a133b@mail.gmail.com> <200504141813.44505.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <348bd6da050414092918bcfd5d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Thursday 14 April 2005 18:18, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > > Corey Burger writes: > > > I think we should set a standard and maximum image size for the > > > quickguide and other docs for breezy. This is due to horizontal space > > > limitations with people with inferior^H^H^H^Hcrt monitors > > > > > > I am thinking 200 to 300 pixels in size. > > > > I agree, also another consideration which supports this idea is file size. > > I would favour having a MAX rather than a standard as obviously every > > screenshot has different requirements (e.g. firefox vs. gnome cdplayer) > > Problems but no solutions..... please read > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots > > If you have a better method state it and then update the above page. > -- > Sean Wheller > Technical Author > sean at inwords.co.za > http://www.inwords.co.za > Registered Linux User #375355 I am looking for a solution, but I am asking what others thought of the general idea, and what sort of numbers they might have in mind. Once I get that idea, I can update that page. Corey From matthew.east at breathe.com Thu Apr 14 16:30:32 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:30:32 +0100 Subject: Standard image size for Quickguide for Breezy In-Reply-To: <200504141813.44505.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <348bd6da0504140914122a133b@mail.gmail.com> <200504141813.44505.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1113496232.6648.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> > Problems but no solutions..... please read > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots Having read that page, isn't it possible to make an effort to keep window size down when taking screenshots? that might help? Matt From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 14 16:39:23 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:39:23 +0200 Subject: Standard image size for Quickguide for Breezy In-Reply-To: <1113496232.6648.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <348bd6da0504140914122a133b@mail.gmail.com> <200504141813.44505.sean@inwords.co.za> <1113496232.6648.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504141839.23989.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 14 April 2005 18:30, Matthew East wrote: > Having read that page, isn't it possible to make an effort to keep > window size down when taking screenshots? that might help? This is part of the solution. However, the method on the page mentioned can always use improvement. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 14 20:49:31 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:49:31 +1000 Subject: Doc critiques at next meeting? (Re: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas) In-Reply-To: References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> <29421.206.114.48.34.1113493434.squirrel@206.114.48.34> <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050414204931.GD23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 14, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > Yes I noticed that :) Will we therefore be discussing other matters > than simply the question of freeze policy as requested by Matt Z? I > think we have some things to talk about apart from this and would be > happy to turn it into a full blown meeting. The longer the meeting gets the harder it is to work out the times is my only concern. (I think I may already be getting up at 5am on a workday, and I NEED to be out of the house by 8am for work) I'd prefer to see this meeting only address what we really want to take to UDU, and then have a meeting just after UDU to deal with other things. Regular short meetings (by which I mean every 2-3 weeks) seem easier to me than occasional long meetings in which we hash out every concern from the last two months. That said, if you want to make a case for extra agenda items, please post to the relevant thread. -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 14 20:52:30 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:52:30 +1000 Subject: IRC meeting: please add your time preferences Message-ID: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Hi again folks, We're still planning an IRC meeting before Ubuntu Down Under -- that means it will happen in the next week. I will announce it in 24 hours time. It has to be planned around people's available times -- so far only FOUR people have put their times down: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamNextIRCMeeting Can anyone else who wants their preferred times taken into account please update that page or email me? Send preferred times in UTC only please, you can use http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html to work it out. Even if someone there is already listing your times, can you add yours anyway? It will be majority rules when the times come into conflict. -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 14 20:56:00 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:56:00 +1000 Subject: IRC meeting: agenda items Message-ID: <20050414205600.GF23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Currently the agenda for the next IRC meeting is quite short. I'm happy to add items to it. Please reply (on list) to this mail. However, keep in mind that a long agenda makes it harder for people to come to the whole meeting. (If it's held in the morning Australian time for example, I will have to leave half way through to drive to work!) In order to keep the meeting a reasonable length of time, I'd like to ask two things: 1. Does your item need to be/really want to be addressed before UDU? 2. If you have a big item, can you make sure it comes with a clear goal. (So, by way of example, instead of "We are targetting the wrong user base" try "Which user base are the docs aimed at?") This will help the meeting stay on track and move on when its achieved something. -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 14 20:59:52 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 06:59:52 +1000 Subject: IRC meeting: please add your time preferences In-Reply-To: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <20050414205952.GG23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Fri, Apr 15, 2005, Mary Gardiner wrote: > Even if someone there is already listing your times, can you add yours > anyway? It will be majority rules when the times come into conflict. Oh, and if there are times when you're going to be in the air flying to UDU or recovering, can you make sure you exclude them? It looks like Saturday 23rd is a great time, but that will rule out some people travelling from Europe. -Mary From positiveviolence at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 16:42:27 2005 From: positiveviolence at gmail.com (xxx) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:42:27 -0700 Subject: how to unsubscribe? In-Reply-To: <20050413082458.EB96A3B8212@maitri.ubuntu.com> References: <20050413082458.EB96A3B8212@maitri.ubuntu.com> Message-ID: <425D4BF3.6050701@gmail.com> I cant find the page that i subbed to this list with How can i unsub? ubuntu-doc-commits at lists.ubuntu.com wrote: >Author: sean >Date: Wed Apr 13 09:24:58 2005 >New Revision: 947 > >Added: > trunk/kde/kadminguide/ > trunk/kde/kadminguide/C/ > - copied from r946, trunk/kde/inst/C/ >Removed: > trunk/kde/inst/ >Log: >rename inst to kadminguide > > > From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 14 23:12:58 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:12:58 +1000 Subject: how to unsubscribe? In-Reply-To: <425D4BF3.6050701@gmail.com> References: <20050413082458.EB96A3B8212@maitri.ubuntu.com> <425D4BF3.6050701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050414231258.GF6999@home.puzzling.org> On Wed, Apr 13, 2005, xxx wrote: > I cant find the page that i subbed to this list with > > How can i unsub? It looks like you're getting masils from the ubuntu-doc-commits at lists.ubuntu.com list. Visit http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits to unsubscribe, or send a mail to ubuntu-doc-commits-leave at lists.ubuntu.com . Note that this URL was at the bottom of every list mail from ubuntu-doc-commits :) -Mary From jjesse at iserv.net Fri Apr 15 02:18:23 2005 From: jjesse at iserv.net (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:18:23 -0400 Subject: KQuickguide Message-ID: I have been looking at the KUbuntu docs and was wondering: Should the KQuickguide just look like Quick-Guide? Same start off patterns and everything? For example, both KQuickguide and Quick-Guide have an "Introduction" section. So we could basically just "copy" both sections and only change what is different? Thoughts or am I way off base? If that is fine, then I would get started if someone doesn't mind. From jgotangco at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 03:33:42 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:33:42 +0800 Subject: KQuickguide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, we talked about this on irc yesterday and some documentation that was done for ubuntu (gnome) can be easily moved to kubuntu. I've started doing a draft on some of the docs and will post it somewhere here on in the wiki for review. You might want to do that as well so we can compare notes. Jerome On 4/15/05, Jonathan Jesse wrote: > I have been looking at the KUbuntu docs and was wondering: > > Should the KQuickguide just look like Quick-Guide? Same start off patterns > and everything? For example, both KQuickguide and Quick-Guide have an > "Introduction" section. So we could basically just "copy" both sections and > only change what is different? Thoughts or am I way off base? If that is > fine, then I would get started if someone doesn't mind. From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 15 05:47:08 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 07:47:08 +0200 Subject: KQuickguide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504150747.11964.sean@inwords.co.za> On Friday 15 April 2005 05:33, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > Yes, we talked about this on irc yesterday and some documentation that > was done for ubuntu (gnome) can be easily moved to kubuntu. I've > started doing a draft on some of the docs and will post it somewhere > here on in the wiki for review. You might want to do that as well so > we can compare notes. Although we need to take into consideration the feedback we have gotten from people like Mathew and decide if we still want to follow this outline. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mpt at myrealbox.com Fri Apr 15 06:23:42 2005 From: mpt at myrealbox.com (Matthew Thomas) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:23:42 +1200 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Matthew Thomas In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> <29421.206.114.48.34.1113493434.squirrel@206.114.48.34> <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <425F5DEE.8000005@myrealbox.com> (Sorry this will be misthreaded; my full mailbox missed Sean's message.) Sean Wheller wrote: >... > The real problem I have with what Mathew Thomas is saying, is, that it is all > well and good to give critique but, since he is subscribed to the docteam > mailing list, it would also be good if he joined us and delivered his ideas > during development. It is easy to stand on a box and pull apart final > creations, not so easy to actually take part in building them. That is true. I'm sorry I didn't join the list, say, four months ago, when saying "hang on, what should be our end product here" might have been useful. But four months ago, I didn't know Ubuntu existed. More recently, I saw the stress caused when Corey proposed minor changes to the infrastructure, and I concluded that proposing major changes to the end product -- especially when I won't have much time to contribute myself -- would have been counter-productive at that stage. > The other issue is that Mathew, with or without intention, seems to miss one > very important point. The part of the community developing the docs on a > constant basis is small and most of them don't want formal approaches to > anything. The contributions come from people who do it for no money. Anything I do for the documentation project will also be for no money. I'm being paid to work on Launchpad, not Ubuntu. But you're right: I do miss the point. I don't see that the level of payment, or the formality of approach, should have much to do with the intended end product. Wikipedia, for example, achieves quite a decent end product with neither payment nor a formal approach. >... > Mathew: 65. Computerized help systems have to be very, very helpful if people > will ever bother using them rather than asking a nearby human. The first step > to achieving this level of helpfulness is always being ready for use within > about one second of being summoned. Unfortunately, Ubuntu?s help system (on > this laptop, at least) takes about eight seconds. > > Sean: It would be helpful to know the hardware platform running on Mathews > computer and how many other processes he was running during this test. It's a Toshiba Satellite with 234.4 MB RAM (according to System Monitor) and a 1500 MHz Pentium processor (according to Device Manager). I'm running Thunderbird, Epiphany, Gaim, and Gnome Terminal. I'll choose "System" > "Help" and time it again ... 11 seconds. > I have > run the same test and have yet to find 8 seconds. One of the systems is a P1 > with 128MB RAM. My feeling is that Yelp, while having its drawbacks, is > comparable with most help systems in the time it takes to load and find > information That is true, but it is also true that I have yet to find a help viewer on any system that doesn't suck. (The help system in Windows, for example, seems to have gotten worse in every version since Windows 3.1.) > and while it is not the ideal tool, it is what we have in GNOME. > It would be great if some developers actually enhanced and improved Yelp. > Alas they do not. True. My points were about "The help system" in general, not just about the help content. > Mathew: 66. The front page of the help system contains seven items, which are > worth examining in detail, because they demonstrate how users and developers > ? even documentation developers ? think about things in different ways. > > Sean: Agreed. They do think in different ways. Personally I would like to > extend an invitation to Mathew to please make suggestions. I did exactly that at the end of that item. >... > Mathew: * ?Hoary Release Notes?. Again, this is interesting > information, but it?s not help. > > Sean: Not help to who? After an upgrade most people look for the Release Notes > to find help on what is new. That seems reasonable, so why not call it "What's new in Ubuntu 5.04", and confine it to that topic? The reason I said "it's not help" was that it was written from a programmer's point of view. Here's how a "What's new" document might look from a user's point of view: What's new in Ubuntu 5.04 * Ubuntu now includes program-A that lets you do X, program-B that lets you do Y, and program-C that lets you do Z. _Program-A help_ _Program-B help_ _Program-C help_ * Several existing programs have major improvements, including Program-P, Program-Q, and Program-R. For more information, run a program and choose "What's New?" from its own help. * With some computers, you can now put the computer to sleep to save power while you're not using it. _How to put your computer to sleep_ * Many parts of Ubuntu are faster, including starting up, printing, and connecting USB and Firewire devices. .... And so on. The stuff about being faster can be left to last, because it's not something people need to know to be comfortable using the new version. The implementation details of each of these features ("readahead", "grepmap", "Live CD infrastructure", and so on) belong on the Ubuntu Web site, not in on-screen help. What's new in the installation process, and the "Upgrade Notes", belong only on the Web site too; it's no use putting either of those in the help, because if I can read the help, I've already upgraded. >... > Mathew: * ?Ubuntu Quick Guide?. This is a cool idea, but > unfortunately what?s provided is not a quick guide. A quick guide would be > one printable page, explaining (a) how to find programs, (b) how to find your > files, (c) how to turn off the computer, and (d) how to get more help. > Instead, the Ubuntu ?Quick Guide? is dozens of pages long. > > Sean: Fair enough. I challenge Mathew to please, in one printable page, > explain a-d. Sure, I'll put that on my to-do list, but as a result you might not see it for months. :-) I think there are very good writers on this list who could do that anyway. >... > A real help system would have items on its front page like ?Connecting > to the Internet?, ?Using files from Windows?, ?Printing?, ?Chatting online?, > ?Playing music?, ?Making CDs and DVDs?, and ?Troubleshooting?. > > Sean: Mathew assumes that all users are of his psychographic profile and level > of computer proficiency. Not at all. I figured out how to connect to the Internet myself, and in doing so realized that it would be beyond most people. I don't have files from Windows to transfer, but I recognize that most new Ubuntu users will. I don't have a printer, but I recognize that for many people a computer is not very useful if they can't print. The topics I chose were my guesses of the tasks people in general will need help with most often. Even if I'm half wrong, I'm more right than the current Ubuntu help table of contents. > In an ideal world help systems would be based on > User Groups. So if you are an administrator you would get 'administrative > topics' and if you are a user you will get 'user topics.' Unfortunately the > help systems today are just not that advanced. So we need to provide context > to our help topics. Perhaps, but don't get carried away. People installing Ubuntu on their own computers, or (eventually) buying computers with Ubuntu pre-installed, will be both admins *and* users. > Mathew: 67. Having said all that, people have become used to the idea that > systems designed for browsing will be poorly organized and out of date (which > is why search engines are more popular than Web directories, for example), so > what they usually do instead is search. Unfortunately, Ubuntu?s help system > doesn?t even have a search function. > > Sean: Let's correct that. GNOME Yelp does not have a search function. And what does Ubuntu use for its help? It uses Yelp. Saying "don't worry, part X of our product has problem Y, but it's not our fault because X was made by someone else" is not how the market works. Aunt Tillie doesn't care whose *fault* it is. (This is probably off-topic for the ubuntu-doc list, except inasmuch as members of the list can plead with friendly programmers to implement search in Yelp. I wasn't writing solely for the benefit of the ubuntu-doc list.) > Personally, I think we should not use yelp at all, rather stick to HTML and > CSS under ANY BROWSER. However, the docteam authors, at the time, wanted Yelp > or nothing. Eh? Not only would a Web browser be slower than Yelp, not only would it have an interface far too complicated for a help viewer, but it wouldn't even solve the problem of not having a search function. > Mathew: 68. Inside the help system, help for the majority of programs is > written in the form of a book. (For example, and I?m sorry to pick on the > Ubuntu Quick Guide one more time, its very first information-containing page > says insolently that ?admonitions will be found throughout the book?.) Books > are useful, but they do not belong in on-screen help systems. On-screen help > needs to be written in a different style, with a different tone, and at much > shorter length. > > Sean: Yes this is a general problem across all Linux help systems. Help is not > really help but a collection of 'User Manuals.' Hence the help system should > rather be called 'manual system.' Renaming it wouldn't solve the underlying problem of the lack of useful on-screen help. > On the otherhand, manuals are a form of > help. I think what Mathew wants from a Linux help system is content sensitive > help where short texts are shown in tip messages. Help tips are all well and good, but they're not a substitute for useful help in a help viewer. All the tooltips in the world won't help you if you're trying to do something in the wrong entire window, for example. > Something like the "What's this?" in Windows. So if you click a checkbox on a dialog with the "What's > this?" you will get a short definition of the checkbox. Or not. The problem with the Windows approach is that, as often as not, you go to the trouble of clicking on two separate things (the [?] button then the control), only to get "No help is available for this item". But I digress. >... > All in all, Mathew has provided us with valuable input for which, personally, > I am gratefull. I do however think that Mathew should, when making critique, > place his comments in context of the technology the developers have at hand > and the environment in which they are developing. Slating something just > because you can, is not productive unless people understand the contexts. > Don't get me wrong Mathew, I value input, but as a wise man once said to me, > "Don't bring me problems I know about without suggesting a solution." It is > easy to look on in and throw in 2c went the work is over. That's part of why I published it right at the start of a development cycle, rather than a couple of weeks before the end of it. > My suggestion is > that Mathew join the docteam and get to understand documentation in context > of open source better. I already understand the context. But, you see, that solution doesn't scale. You can't expect all Ubuntu users, or even most Ubuntu users, to join the documentation team, better understand "documentation in the context of open source", and say "oh, that's why the help isn't useful, that's all right then". :-) > Sitting on a Mac, looking in, then having a say will > not give your critique much weight in the long run. I wrote that item using Ubuntu. I haven't used a Mac since my iBook broke. Cheers -- Matthew Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Fri Apr 15 06:28:10 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:28:10 +1000 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas In-Reply-To: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <20050415062810.GB14309@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 14, 2005, Sean Wheller wrote: > Mathew: * ???Desktop???. This makes the unwarranted assumption that > people will consider the items in Gnome???s panels, for example, to be part of > the ???desktop???, rather than being above or below the desktop. I think this is fair comment, but I don't know an alternative term. "Workspace?" "Interface?" Ick. > * ???Applications???. This makes the unwarranted assumption that people > visiting the top-level help page ??? that is, people seeking help without > having started any particular program ??? will nevertheless know what > ???application??? they need to use for the thing they want to do. True, but again, I don't know a better term. "Tasks"? > * ???Other Documentation???. ???Other??? is a slippery word: it works only > if the rest of the categories are already clear, and they???re not. "Other" is the bane of all ontologies. > * ???Man Pages???. Teeheeheehee. Should at least be "manual pages". > Mathew: * ???Hoary Release Notes???. Again, this is interesting > information, but it???s not help. > > Sean: Not help to who? After an upgrade most people look for the Release Notes > to find help on what is new. Perhaps there is no need for it in Yelp? Perhaps > we should put it in System > Release Notes I'm not sure who I agree with here. Perhaps naming it would be better. "Upgrade information"? "Upgrade help"? In the ideal-est of all ideal worlds, it would not show to anyone who had not actually upgraded their system. > > Mathew: * ???Ubuntu Quick Guide???. This is a cool idea, but > unfortunately what???s provided is not a quick guide. A quick guide would be > one printable page, explaining (a) how to find programs, (b) how to find your > files, (c) how to turn off the computer, and (d) how to get more help. > Instead, the Ubuntu ???Quick Guide??? is dozens of pages long. > > Sean: Fair enough. I challenge Mathew to please, in one printable page, > explain a-d. Perhaps, instead of calling it "Quick Guide" it should have been > "Quick Tour." Perhaps, since we have more people on the team now, we can > apply Methews model for the next version. I doubt it will be one page. In > general, I think we all agree with Mathew and Corey has pointed out some good > examples that we can use to base our ideas on. The "one printable page" challenge might be well enough done with pictures. > A real help system would have items on its front page like ???Connecting > to the Internet???, ???Using files from Windows???, ???Printing???, ???Chatting online???, > ???Playing music???, ???Making CDs and DVDs???, and ???Troubleshooting???. > > Sean: Mathew assumes that all users are of his psychographic profile and level > of computer proficiency. In an ideal world help systems would be based on > User Groups. So if you are an administrator you would get 'administrative > topics' and if you are a user you will get 'user topics.' Unfortunately the > help systems today are just not that advanced. So we need to provide context > to our help topics. His profile is probably close for the type of user who would be visiting the help system first thing without starting any programs. One click access to different user profiles might be an interim solution, with this as the default. Or alternatively, more actual user testing. -Mary From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 15 13:33:30 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:33:30 +0200 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Matthew Thomas In-Reply-To: <425F5DEE.8000005@myrealbox.com> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> <425F5DEE.8000005@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <200504151533.35850.sean@inwords.co.za> On Friday 15 April 2005 08:23, Matthew Thomas wrote: > That is true. I'm sorry I didn't join the list, say, four months ago, > when saying "hang on, what should be our end product here" might have > been useful. But four months ago, I didn't know Ubuntu existed. More > recently, I saw the stress caused when Corey proposed minor changes to > the infrastructure, and I concluded that proposing major changes to the > end product -- especially when I won't have much time to contribute > myself -- would have been counter-productive at that stage. Changes have to be proposed at the right time. Nobody can expect to walk in mid stream and decide everyting is wrong or they can do it better. That really demotivates people who have been working for a few months under the group consensus and results in current work always changing and never ending. > > Anything I do for the documentation project will also be for no money. > I'm being paid to work on Launchpad, not Ubuntu. But you're right: I do > miss the point. I don't see that the level of payment, or the formality > of approach, should have much to do with the intended end product. > Wikipedia, for example, achieves quite a decent end product with neither > payment nor a formal approach. I think we need to compare Apples with Apples. Say Gentoo with Ubuntu. :-) > > It's a Toshiba Satellite with 234.4 MB RAM (according to System Monitor) > and a 1500 MHz Pentium processor (according to Device Manager). I'm > running Thunderbird, Epiphany, Gaim, and Gnome Terminal. I'll choose > "System" > "Help" and time it again ... 11 seconds. Wow I can't believe it takes that long on your system. Something is not right. > > Mathew: ?66. The front page of the help system contains seven items, > > which are worth examining in detail, because they demonstrate how users > > and developers ? even documentation developers ? think about things in > > different ways. > > > > Sean: Agreed. They do think in different ways. Personally I would like to > > extend an invitation to Mathew to please make suggestions. > > I did exactly that at the end of that item. Make more ... :-) > > >... > > Mathew: ? ? ? ? ?* ?Hoary Release Notes?. Again, this is interesting > > information, but it?s not help. > > > > Sean: Not help to who? After an upgrade most people look for the Release > > Notes to find help on what is new. > > That seems reasonable, so why not call it "What's new in Ubuntu 5.04", > and confine it to that topic? The reason I said "it's not help" was that > it was written from a programmer's point of view. Here's how a "What's > new" document might look from a user's point of view: > > ? ? ?What's new in Ubuntu 5.04 > > ? ? ?* ? Ubuntu now includes program-A that lets you do X, program-B > ? ? ? ? ?that lets you do Y, and program-C that lets you do Z. > ? ? ? ? ?_Program-A help_ > ? ? ? ? ?_Program-B help_ > ? ? ? ? ?_Program-C help_ > > ? ? ?* ? Several existing programs have major improvements, including > ? ? ? ? ?Program-P, Program-Q, and Program-R. For more information, run > ? ? ? ? ?a program and choose "What's New?" from its own help. > > ? ? ?* ? With some computers, you can now put the computer to sleep to > ? ? ? ? ?save power while you're not using it. > ? ? ? ? ?_How to put your computer to sleep_ > > ? ? ?* ? Many parts of Ubuntu are faster, including starting up, > ? ? ? ? ?printing, and connecting USB and Firewire devices. Good idea. Agreed. > >... > > Mathew: ? ? ? ? ?* ?Ubuntu Quick Guide?. This is a cool idea, but > > unfortunately what?s provided is not a quick guide. A quick guide would > > be one printable page, explaining (a) how to find programs, (b) how to > > find your files, (c) how to turn off the computer, and (d) how to get > > more help. Instead, the Ubuntu ?Quick Guide? is dozens of pages long. > > > > Sean: Fair enough. I challenge Mathew to please, in one printable page, > > explain a-d. > > Sure, I'll put that on my to-do list, but as a result you might not see > it for months. :-) I think there are very good writers on this list who > could do that anyway. Well perhaps you can join us in the design of the next quick guide? > > >... > > ? ? ? A real help system would have items on its front page like > > ?Connecting to the Internet?, ?Using files from Windows?, ?Printing?, > > ?Chatting online?, ?Playing music?, ?Making CDs and DVDs?, and > > ?Troubleshooting?. > > > > Sean: Mathew assumes that all users are of his psychographic profile and > > level of computer proficiency. > > Not at all. I figured out how to connect to the Internet myself, and in > doing so realized that it would be beyond most people. I don't have > files from Windows to transfer, but I recognize that most new Ubuntu > users will. I don't have a printer, but I recognize that for many people > a computer is not very useful if they can't print. > > The topics I chose were my guesses of the tasks people in general will > need help with most often. Even if I'm half wrong, I'm more right than > the current Ubuntu help table of contents. Agreed. My point was that the information requirements and topics displayed on the first page of a help system should actually be associated with user types or groups. Unfortunately it is difficult to exactly understand the different types of user profiles we are addressing. When speaking to a Windows user who is new to Linux one can assume familiarity with certain aspects of computer usage. For example, things like file systems are not of interest to a user of this profile. However, a user who has never used a computer before, could well find this information invaluable. Writing all our books from the perspective of the 'absolute beginner' is not a good idea since our Windows user will feel insulted. Therefore, we must strike a balance. The current method is to enable users to access information by way of the categories displayed in the first page of Yelp. Admittedly, the category names are less than helpful and we should do something we have not done, that being to access the information categories and label them correctly. We did not pay any attention to this. On a technical note we also need to understand how to make the relationship between Yelp and Scrollkeeper do what we want it to do, not what it wants to do. The whole Yelp/Scrollkeeper thing is far to limiting when it comes to creativity and customization IMHO. > > > In an ideal world help systems would be based on > > User Groups. So if you are an administrator you would get 'administrative > > topics' and if you are a user you will get 'user topics.' Unfortunately > > the help systems today are just not that advanced. So we need to provide > > context to our help topics. > > Perhaps, but don't get carried away. People installing Ubuntu on their > own computers, or (eventually) buying computers with Ubuntu > pre-installed, will be both admins *and* users. Not at all. I would go so far as to run a wizard, on first invocation of the help system, that asks the user to select the user profile that best matches what they feel is their level of proficiency. Based on this selection I would present certain help topics with greater prominence than others. From there I would enable the user to customize their help environment. > > > Mathew: ?67. ?Having said all that, people have become used to the idea > > that systems designed for browsing will be poorly organized and out of > > date (which is why search engines are more popular than Web directories, > > for example), so what they usually do instead is search. Unfortunately, > > Ubuntu?s help system doesn?t even have a search function. > > > > Sean: Let's correct that. GNOME Yelp does not have a search function. > > And what does Ubuntu use for its help? It uses Yelp. Saying "don't > worry, part X of our product has problem Y, but it's not our fault > because X was made by someone else" is not how the market works. Aunt > Tillie doesn't care whose *fault* it is. (This is probably off-topic for > the ubuntu-doc list, except inasmuch as members of the list can plead > with friendly programmers to implement search in Yelp. I wasn't writing > solely for the benefit of the ubuntu-doc list.) No GNOME uses Yelp, KDE uses KHelpCenter (which btw has a search). Ubuntu itself does not have to use Yelp. > > > Personally, I think we should not use yelp at all, rather stick to HTML > > and CSS under ANY BROWSER. However, the docteam authors, at the time, > > wanted Yelp or nothing. > > Eh? Not only would a Web browser be slower than Yelp, not only would it > have an interface far too complicated for a help viewer, but it wouldn't > even solve the problem of not having a search function. Only if you are loading the whole web browser. I would take certain features like the rendering engine and strip down useless features until I have a light weight fast app that seamlessly browses the local help system and web-based resources. Indexing and searching is easy to implement in this environment. > > On the otherhand, manuals are a form of > > help. I think what Mathew wants from a Linux help system is content > > sensitive help where short texts are shown in tip messages. > > Help tips are all well and good, but they're not a substitute for useful > help in a help viewer. All the tooltips in the world won't help you if > you're trying to do something in the wrong entire window, for example. Interesting ... could you expand on your definition of what is "useful help." > >... > > All in all, Mathew has provided us with valuable input for which, > > personally, I am gratefull. I do however think that Mathew should, when > > making critique, place his comments in context of the technology the > > developers have at hand and the environment in which they are developing. > > Slating something just because you can, is not productive unless people > > understand the contexts. Don't get me wrong Mathew, I value input, but as > > a wise man once said to me, "Don't bring me problems I know about without > > suggesting a solution." It is easy to look on in and throw in 2c went the > > work is over. > > That's part of why I published it right at the start of a development > cycle, rather than a couple of weeks before the end of it. I was thinking .... it is good to make suggestions at the start of a release based on your experience with the previous release and then at then after the release to revisit your suggestions and add some more. The continuity is better. > > > My suggestion is > > that Mathew join the docteam and get to understand documentation in > > context of open source better. > > I already understand the context. But, you see, that solution doesn't > scale. You can't expect all Ubuntu users, or even most Ubuntu users, to > join the documentation team, better understand "documentation in the > context of open source", and say "oh, that's why the help isn't useful, > that's all right then". :-) Email is not the best medium for this. I was trying to say that with a better understanding your input could be of even greater value as it would be able to directly target problems in context of the bigger picture. For example, your current message is just well the Help system sucks. OK, in principle this is true. We agree with you and hence I am engaging with you to extract more. What I would like to know, considering the current state of technology available to authors, is what other solutions are out there that will solve the problems you experienced. Perhaps you know of a new help engine for Linux or think that one should be developed. Your knowing of the current help system weaknesses presented in context of alternatives, combined with solutions that can be implimented now would go a long way to promoting a better help user agent for Ubuntu. The more you know the more you can help. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 15 13:37:04 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:37:04 +0200 Subject: Fwd: documentation "patch": Fax support in Kubuntu Message-ID: <200504151537.04951.sean@inwords.co.za> Forward this to the list. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: documentation "patch": Fax support in Kubuntu Date: Friday 15 April 2005 14:55 From: Otto Kek?l?inen To: sean at inwords.co.za Didn't find any suitable wiki-page, so I guess your guide is the best place to add this to. ---------- Fax support in Kubuntu KDE 4.0 comes shipped with KSendFax, which can be used only to send fax (not recive). First you need to install a basic fax software, like eFax or HylaFax (included in Hoary Universe). At least eFax must be configured manually by editing /etc/efax.conf before it can be used. Make also sure that a /dev/modem link exists and points to the correct location (/dev/ttyS0 = COM1, /dev/ttyS1 = COM2). From KSendFax you may send PostScript-files directly, but the most convinient way to use fax, is to print you documents to the "Send fax" device from KDE applications, which automatically opens KSendFax. KSendFax uses the same contact book as the rest of KDE-applications (Kontakt). ----------- (tested to work on one machine with eFax) -- Otto Kek?l?inen Helsingin Yliopisto / LTDK / L2 puh. 050-300 8105 ------------------------------------------------------- -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 15:52:05 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:52:05 +0800 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Matthew Thomas In-Reply-To: <200504151533.35850.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> <348bd6da05041408474f3e6e0f@mail.gmail.com> <425F5DEE.8000005@myrealbox.com> <200504151533.35850.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: I went to Matthew's site once again and re-read the section on the help system. I was driving to the grocer and was thinking about better ways to present a help system that is useful to a user who dives into Ubuntu, so I had to think myself as someone who came from another operating system, say like Windows or MacOSX. I also checked the forums as well as monitoring the #ubuntu chatroom. After some observations on the user questions and conversations, my assumptions are the following: 1. The user knows how to do things in his current operating system. Either he has the software installed when he bought the machine or he bought this particular piece of software to do something (say play a DVD). 2. The user has knowledge of what Linux is, has tried some distros, probably the most common 3 (RH/Fedora, MDK & SuSE), but didn't last long because he couldn't do things that was used to in his current system. 3. The user has enough experience to try out a new system for use at home or probably work and is trying to research on the viability of the new platform (Ubuntu) for daily use. 4. The user is experienced in handling a Linux system as a desktop, server, etc. Therefore, I can think of a flow of documentation with this line of thought. This may have been done by other distros like Linspire or Lycoris, but I cannot say because I have not used them personally. A. Welcome Note B. About Ubuntu B.1 History... B.2 Manifesto.... B.3 Joining...etc.. C. Running Ubuntu C.1 I want to do...etc... C.1.1 Play DVD C.1.2 Connect to the Internet...etc. D. Maintaining your Ubuntu system D.1 Your Home Folder... D.2 Folder structure (what is this, where this goes, what it means, etc.)...etc. E. Going Further E.1 Learn Linux guide....(note: I've seen this on svn, this is the learn linux stuff from a za website) E. Running Ubuntu as a server...etc. F. Credits G. Index H. GNU/Linux stuff, licenses, etc... This is a rough thought, looks like a book, but at least you have a flow of thought that can be relevant to a new user, regardless of experience level. I haven't even thought on how to present this in a UI. But then, we also consider the fact that yelp does not have a search function. So that means, given the volume of possible documentation that we may have (not to consider i18n), we need a help system that has at least index and search. I remember someone in #ubuntu saying that there is a need to restructure our current documentation "in a logical flow from docbook to wiki". My interpretation of this is that we build our documentation as we have always done (with some new stuff included), but since these docs are frozen along with release, any user who installs a few months after release will have, technically, "old" documentation. That's where the wiki comes in, some sort of "addendum" or "last minute docs", like those loose sheets we have when we buy software or a computer. However, these wiki entries should be controlled so that the information is official and always changed as needed. This thing may have been discussed before in previous chats or emails before I became active in the DocTeam so feel free to remind me of such. jerome -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 15 17:14:28 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:14:28 +0200 Subject: i18n: infrustructure [long] Message-ID: <200504151914.32173.sean@inwords.co.za> Hello, For all authors and translators. You may know that last release we did not have much support of the i18n process. To address this I have restructured the repos. While the restructure seems to have solved our issues related to management and packaging introduced by i18n it does not solve a number of sematic and processing issues. One of the main problems was that in order to manage files better and simplify the packaging system, we needed directories for each translation (prose and images). Organizing in this method, by nature, resulted in changes to the file paths and impacted on the location of an XML-instance in relation to the images it references. As a result, the values specified for the fileref attributes of all imagedata elements was broken (NULL) since the file no longer resides in the same location as when we wrote the documents. We needed to update all these values, but introduction of i18n support meant it was not enough for us to just change the value to reflect the new path. Instead of just having to specify the fileref values the English document and propagate the value in i18n versions, we now have to consider that translated documents have screen captures taken using the specific i18n locale. While, at present, it is entirely possible for us to simply update the fileref values for each document and its translations to reflect the new paths, this would not be a good long term solution. First problem is that the translated versions of an English document are generated through a process comprising pot and po files. Each time we update a POT file the changes are merged into the respective PO files that are finally reconstructed into XML-instances based on the original XML-instance used to create the POT. Since the POT and PO files do not contain all element data, the values for fileref attributes would be propagated to all translated documents during this process and result in us having to continually maintain fileref values. Being a lazy person, I thought this was just too much overhead and could easily lead to errors as things get forgotten or time runs out near release. What we needed was a way to abstract, as best possible, so that the fileref values propagated would work with little or no modification throughout the work flow. My first thought was to script it in a make file or shell script, but then I realized that doing so would not be of great benefit as it would not result in solution that is easily supported by Document and Content Management Systems. We needed a solution that was inline and maintainable within a pure XML environment. After some investigation the following solution was reached. First we have modularized our entity structure to accommodate a number of layers. I will not go into all now. To the internal subset of our document prolog we have added an internal entity called 'language.' The value of language is an entity reference to an entity defined in the external entity called 'globalent' that defined and declared in the internal subset. The two entities are shown below. %globalent; Within 'globalent' all the two letter, ISO language codes used in the i18n process and the structure of our file system are defined as entities. For example: Hope you are still with me. Looking at the language entity you will see that the value is "&EnglishAmerican;" which expands to which expands to "C". The current value of language is therefore "C", meaning it is an English document. In the sample from 'globalent' you will notice that this entity occurs twice except one instance is commented out. Look closer and you will see that the value of the commented instance is not 'C' but 'en'. This is the actual two letter ISO code, but we do not use it since within the directory structure English documents and images are maintained in a directory named 'C'. This is done to maintain compatability with a GNOME convention that places all English resources in C. Back to our entities. By setting the value of language to an entity reference we have a single parameter by which to control the value of any parametized entity references to 'language' throughout an XML-instance. Since the 'language' entity is not declared we can use a parameter entity to at any point in the body of a document to substitue the value of language with the value of the entity reference defined as its value. For example:
.... ...... The language is %language; ....
In the article node lang attribute %language; is used to denote the language of the document. When the language attribute is matched by the Docbook XSLs the value of 'lang' is used to select documents containing translated texts called generated texts. They are part of the Docbook XSL package insalled on your system. These include texts for labels, captions, etc. Note: If a lang attribute is not defined the stylesheets default to en. This is a small problem since if the value of 'language' is &EnglishAmerica; the value of lang will be C. The stylesheets do not match lang="C" and a warning is therefore generated "No localization exists for "c" or "". Using default "en". null " This is a warning by for our purpose has the desired effect of selecting the en genetexts. It is a desired error. In the para node the result is "The language is C", if the value of 'language' is &EnglishAmerican; In the imagedata node the result is Substitute the value &EnglishAmerican; with &German; and the results will be:
...... The language is de Hence we have: 1. a method to ensure that we can use the appropriate gentexts when transforming to HTML and PDF etc. 2. a method to ensure compatability with yelp and GNOME folder conventions. 3. a method to ensure compatability under Document and Content Management Systems. All the above has one problem. We must somehow change the value of 'language' for each XML-instance to the entity reference relevant to the language of the document. I have to test if this can be done under a Document or Content Management system, but am reasonably confident that it can be done using pipes and XSLT. Hope this helps. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Fri Apr 15 21:39:31 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:39:31 +1000 Subject: IRC meeting: please add your time preferences In-Reply-To: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <20050415213931.GC8255@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Fri, Apr 15, 2005, Mary Gardiner wrote: > Even if someone there is already listing your times, can you add yours > anyway? It will be majority rules when the times come into conflict. Last chance now... -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Sat Apr 16 00:15:04 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:15:04 +1000 Subject: Docteam meeting: Sunday 1200 UTC Message-ID: <20050416001504.GD29879@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> I'm sorry this announcement is not very much in advance, but is Sunday 17th 1200 UTC a good time for the IRC meeting? It is probably the only time when all six of the people who put their times on the wiki can make it. Assume that it's on unless you hear otherwise from me. -Mary From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 01:36:10 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:36:10 -0700 Subject: Docteam meeting: Sunday 1200 UTC In-Reply-To: <20050416001504.GD29879@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050416001504.GD29879@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <348bd6da05041518363d296e1e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/15/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > I'm sorry this announcement is not very much in advance, but is Sunday > 17th 1200 UTC a good time for the IRC meeting? It is probably the only > time when all six of the people who put their times on the wiki can make > it. > > Assume that it's on unless you hear otherwise from me. > > -Mary This time works for me. (4am, ugh) Corey From janc13 at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 02:25:42 2005 From: janc13 at gmail.com (JanC) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:25:42 +0200 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas In-Reply-To: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <984838bf05041519252b588ce3@mail.gmail.com> On 4/14/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > The help system I think a blend of wxWidget's/wxPython's help system + a 'system-wide' indexing system like Beagle + maybe yelp could become a better documentation environment... (If yelp would have been written in python...) -- JanC From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 16 06:42:55 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:42:55 +0200 Subject: i18n: infrustructure [long] In-Reply-To: <200504151914.32173.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504151914.32173.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504160842.58887.sean@inwords.co.za> On Friday 15 April 2005 19:14, Sean Wheller wrote: Technical update to this message. I made a mistake and told people to use a parametized entity instead of a plain entity reference. The change is explained by updating my text below. > > Back to our entities. By setting the value of language to an entity > reference we have a single parameter by which to control the value of any > parametized entity references to 'language' throughout an XML-instance. > Since the 'language' entity is not declared we can use a parameter entity > to at any point in the body of a document to substitue the value of > language with the value of the entity reference defined as its value. > > For example: > >
> .... > ...... The language is %language; ...... The language is &language; > > > > > > .... >
-- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 08:00:06 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:00:06 +0800 Subject: Docteam meeting: Sunday 1200 UTC In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05041518363d296e1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050416001504.GD29879@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <348bd6da05041518363d296e1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 1200 UTC tommorow (17th) is just fine with me (8:00PM +8) Jerome On 4/16/05, Corey Burger wrote: > On 4/15/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > I'm sorry this announcement is not very much in advance, but is Sunday > > 17th 1200 UTC a good time for the IRC meeting? It is probably the only > > time when all six of the people who put their times on the wiki can make > > it. > > > > Assume that it's on unless you hear otherwise from me. > > > > -Mary -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From john at technolalia.org Sat Apr 16 08:08:18 2005 From: john at technolalia.org (John Levin) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:08:18 +0100 Subject: Docteam meeting: Sunday 1200 UTC In-Reply-To: <20050416001504.GD29879@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050416001504.GD29879@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <5a7d33ac67987675c097e6a5594ff164@technolalia.org> On 16 Apr 2005, at 01:15, Mary Gardiner wrote: > I'm sorry this announcement is not very much in advance, but is Sunday > 17th 1200 UTC a good time for the IRC meeting? It is probably the only > time when all six of the people who put their times on the wiki can > make > it. > > Assume that it's on unless you hear otherwise from me. > > -Mary > Fine by me. john From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 16 08:15:10 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:15:10 +0200 Subject: Docteam meeting: Sunday 1200 UTC In-Reply-To: <5a7d33ac67987675c097e6a5594ff164@technolalia.org> References: <20050416001504.GD29879@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <5a7d33ac67987675c097e6a5594ff164@technolalia.org> Message-ID: <200504161015.14265.sean@inwords.co.za> On Saturday 16 April 2005 10:08, John Levin wrote: > Fine by me. ditto -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mpt at myrealbox.com Sat Apr 16 08:58:20 2005 From: mpt at myrealbox.com (Matthew Thomas) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:58:20 +1200 Subject: Worthwhile critique from Mathew Thomas In-Reply-To: <20050415062810.GB14309@home.puzzling.org> References: <200504141552.58202.sean@inwords.co.za> <20050415062810.GB14309@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <4260D3AC.6040206@myrealbox.com> Mary Gardiner wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2005, Sean Wheller wrote: >> >>Mathew: * ???Desktop???. This makes the unwarranted assumption that >>people will consider the items in Gnome???s panels, for example, to be part of >>the ???desktop???, rather than being above or below the desktop. > > I think this is fair comment, but I don't know an alternative term. > "Workspace?" "Interface?" Ick. Instead of assuming people will know what part of the system to go into to achieve what they want to, I suggest concentrating on tasks they want to perform. So, "Changing the volume", "Viewing your calendar", "What to do if all your windows disappear", "Deleting files", and so on. >> * ???Applications???. This makes the unwarranted assumption that people >>visiting the top-level help page ??? that is, people seeking help without >>having started any particular program ??? will nevertheless know what >>???application??? they need to use for the thing they want to do. > > True, but again, I don't know a better term. "Tasks"? Same here. Don't categorize by executable type, categorize by task. So, "Working with documents", "Finding things on the Internet", "Playing music", "Troubleshooting and maintenance". I started an outline of what I'm talking about on the wiki. >... >> * ???Man Pages???. Teeheeheehee. > > Should at least be "manual pages". Or "Reference manuals" -- to be found under "Advanced topics", along with "Setting up a file server", "Setting up a print server", and so on. >... > The "one printable page" challenge might be well enough done with > pictures. Yes, I imagine it will use quite a few pictures. -- Matthew Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From ubuntu at trickie.org Sat Apr 16 10:45:59 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:45:59 +1000 Subject: Docteam meeting: Sunday 1200 UTC In-Reply-To: <200504161015.14265.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <20050416001504.GD29879@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <5a7d33ac67987675c097e6a5594ff164@technolalia.org> <200504161015.14265.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <4260ECE7.1080003@trickie.org> Sean Wheller wrote: > On Saturday 16 April 2005 10:08, John Levin wrote: > >>Fine by me. > > ditto > Yep... ok for me From troywill1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 02:49:31 2005 From: troywill1 at gmail.com (Troy Williams) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:49:31 -0500 Subject: Hi, I would like to help! Message-ID: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> Greetings, I am new to Ubuntu (not new to Linux, however) and I am very intrigued by the Ubuntu Community. I would like to help with the Documentation Team efforts. I guess I have the obvious question (I have read the Documentation Team page, ToDo Lists, etc.): Where should I begin? I am willing to assist where it is needed most or wherever the team might see fit. Please let me know if I can be of assistance...looking forward to being a part of this community. Thanks. Regards, Troy Williams From corey.burger at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 02:59:31 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:59:31 -0700 Subject: Hi, I would like to help! In-Reply-To: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> References: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <348bd6da0504161959bb221a4@mail.gmail.com> On 4/16/05, Troy Williams wrote: > Greetings, > > I am new to Ubuntu (not new to Linux, however) and I am very intrigued > by the Ubuntu Community. I would like to help with the Documentation > Team efforts. > > I guess I have the obvious question (I have read the Documentation Team > page, ToDo Lists, etc.): Where should I begin? I am willing to assist > where it is needed most or wherever the team might see fit. > > Please let me know if I can be of assistance...looking forward to being > a part of this community. Thanks. > > Regards, > Troy Williams Welcome, We are currently gearing up to write for Breezy. We have a meeting tomorrow at 1200 UTC to decide on a few things. This meeting will be at the #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net Currently, the quickguide needs to be kept up to date with breezy. New projects include updating the faqguide to make it more visual, as well as writing an admin guide. Sean Wheller is also working on a XUL toolbar for mozilla, to be used to Breezy to replace yelp. We are also hashing out specs for a web portal for easy editing of documents, while keeping them in the current revision control system(Subversion). Overall, the easiest way is to pull down stuff from the subversion repos and begin tweaking. Send all your patches to the list, and someone who has commit access will send them up and give up feedback. Corey From troywill1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 05:07:25 2005 From: troywill1 at gmail.com (Troy Williams) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:07:25 -0500 Subject: Hi, I would like to help! In-Reply-To: <348bd6da0504161959bb221a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> <348bd6da0504161959bb221a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4261EF0D.3060503@gmail.com> Corey Burger wrote: >On 4/16/05, Troy Williams wrote: > > >>Greetings, >> >>I am new to Ubuntu (not new to Linux, however) and I am very intrigued >>by the Ubuntu Community. I would like to help with the Documentation >>Team efforts. >> >>I guess I have the obvious question (I have read the Documentation Team >>page, ToDo Lists, etc.): Where should I begin? I am willing to assist >>where it is needed most or wherever the team might see fit. >> >>Please let me know if I can be of assistance...looking forward to being >>a part of this community. Thanks. >> >>Regards, >>Troy Williams >> >> > >Welcome, > >We are currently gearing up to write for Breezy. We have a meeting >tomorrow at 1200 UTC to decide on a few things. This meeting will be >at the #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net > >Currently, the quickguide needs to be kept up to date with breezy. > >New projects include updating the faqguide to make it more visual, as >well as writing an admin guide. Sean Wheller is also working on a XUL >toolbar for mozilla, to be used to Breezy to replace yelp. > >We are also hashing out specs for a web portal for easy editing of >documents, while keeping them in the current revision control >system(Subversion). > >Overall, the easiest way is to pull down stuff from the subversion >repos and begin tweaking. Send all your patches to the list, and >someone who has commit access will send them up and give up feedback. > >Corey > > > Thanks for the quick reply. I am unsure if I will be able to make the meeting in the morning due to the current hour, but, regardless, I will study the Documentation Team pages and begin to pull stuff down from the repos and have a look. Thanks, again. Troy From jgotangco at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 08:36:02 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:36:02 +0800 Subject: Hi, I would like to help! In-Reply-To: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> References: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Troy, Everyone is welcome to join the Documentation Team. Too bad you can't come around in the scheduled meeting but results of that will definitely be posted in the wiki. I'm sure you'll find something to contribute when you get to see the whole picture of what's coming ahead. Like Corey has said, the easiset way get yourself familiarized with what we generally do is pull down our current documents from subversion so you have yourself a working copy. This link will show you how to do it: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository Once you have a working copy, you'll see various files that comprise the current efforts of the Documentation Team. Check out these files at your pleasure. The xml files can be opened with yelp. You do not need to know this stuff to join in, but it helps. Just ask away if you're stumped and I'm sure the others will give a reply. Hope this helps, Jerome On 4/17/05, Troy Williams wrote: > Greetings, > > I am new to Ubuntu (not new to Linux, however) and I am very intrigued > by the Ubuntu Community. I would like to help with the Documentation > Team efforts. > > I guess I have the obvious question (I have read the Documentation Team > page, ToDo Lists, etc.): Where should I begin? I am willing to assist > where it is needed most or wherever the team might see fit. > > Please let me know if I can be of assistance...looking forward to being > a part of this community. Thanks. > > Regards, > Troy Williams -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From sean at inwords.co.za Sun Apr 17 10:32:42 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:32:42 +0200 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] Message-ID: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> African Greetings, For the last two or three days we have been having intermitant discussions about documentation requirements for Breezy. Since it is hard to develop documentation without some knowledge of our users and their environment, I have suggested that we perform user and environment analysis that will enable us to more accurately define an overall information plan and document specifications for each of the documents we have proposed so far. However, before we get into the details of the analysis, it is important to place this in context of the documentation project for Breezy as a whole. My rational for performing analysis is so that we may gather information from our users and use it as knowledge on which to base our decisions in developing documents. The greater our understanding of the users and their environment the better we can address their requirements. It is important that we know as much possible about our users as they are our audience. We don't write documents for ourselves. Our role as authors is to act as a conduit between the subject matter experts and the people who use their creations. Our job is to package knowledge so that it may be transfered between these groups. In doing so we have several challenges. The first and most important of which is to package information in a way that is understandable so that a user may accomplish a task safely and efficiently. At first glance this does not sound difficult, but a closer look tells us that not all people in the user category have the same level of proficiency with computers. So, we cannot create a single user profile detailing the level of skill or knowledge of our audience and write to that. For if we did, we would certainly fail. Some users would get lost in techno mumbo jumbo, other would get frustrated at reading such simple documents and feel that we insult their intelligence. Both results are undesirable. Somewhere inbetween we would cover a percentage of users at the expense of the others. For example, it is likely we would be covering a middle band of users who are computer proficient and that does not need as much help as new users. With this in mind, it is obvious that within our user group we have people with different backgrounds, motives, objectives, knowledge and experience with using a computer. It is impossible for us to write for the unique requirements of each and every user as an individual, so we need to identify and develop a creative way of identifying groups of user types, categorize them and package information with structure and content that each group can digest. At this point I want to point people to SVN where I have committed some documents in https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff The files are: * audience-analysis.xml * content-specification.xml * environment-analysis.xml * information-plan.xml So, assuming we have an understanding of the user profiles and have categorized them, how does this fit into our content development life-cycle? In short it fits into our planning phases. For purpose of brevity, I am not going into great depth here. It should suffice to say that the planning phase is comprised of two phases: Phase 1: Create an Information Plan Phase 2: Create a Project Plan My focus for now is Phase 1, the "information plan." The information plan documents the basic organization and content of the publications we intend to build. This plan is the end product of a research effort that includes findings about the user and the product. This bring me nicely to the survey. We are working in a virtual environment. We don't have the luxury of sitting face to face with our users or watching over their shoulders how they use Ubuntu. In order to assist us in performing user research we need to find another way to gather some information upon which we can make decisions. We need to turn our guesses into educated guesses. While to be fully effective on understanding users we need a combination of observation and interview techniques, I think that at present we know nothing and having 50% of the user information is better than 0%. On the product side we have our computers so it is safe to say that we have 100% ability to research in that area. If user and product are each 50% of our total research effort then an educated guess would be that we can, at best obtain 75% of the information required for our research. Which, in my opinion, is better that the 50% we currently have that only pertains to the product. To obtain the additional 25% I have formulated two questionaires: * User Analysis * Environment Analysis I would like to put these up on the Ubuntu Web Site and let users complete them, gather the results and, with team help, gather the results of our research into the information plan. From this point we can develop content specifications for each of the proposed publications. It is highly likely that we may have to scrap our current ideas and replace them with the new ideas we have uncovered. I believe that this initiative will have use beyond the scope of the documentation project, in which case it would be good to receive their input. However, I must ask that the relevance of any input be limited to the scope of our documentation effort. I fear that creeping beyond this scope would defocus what we are trying to do and protract the time it will take to execute. Normally, I factor in that 10% of my project timeline is allocated to this type of research and planning. I have never tried this in an open source environment so I cannot with certainty say that it will take 10% of the Breezy development timeline. I would there like to set a milestone, but since I have no way of knowing when the survey will go live it is a bit of a moving target at present. However, at some stage we should set a milestone and cut-off for the planning phase. In closing, I would like to outline the five phase model that I an other Technical Authors use to quality the stages of a publicationsdevelopment life cycle. Phase 1: Information Planning 10% Phase 2: Content Specification 20% Phase 3: Implementation 50% Phase 4: Production 19% Phase 5: Evaluation 1% Our i18n phase comes into Phase 3. As documents are completed, we release them as POT files. When they return as PO files they become part of Phase 4. Each of these phases needs a milestone. Each phase has sub-phases that have their inner-cycles and milestones. In general I think that this type of formal approach may meet resistance in an open source environment. I mentioned this in an earlier thread responding to the most excellent critique posted by Mathew (mpt). Some people said they were for a formal approach, many did not answer. I hope however that you will all give what I have proposed the due consideration it deserves and provide me with constructive input. Please note that I will take silence to equal consent and will make my decisions to move ahead or not based on the input and support within our team. So if I get back one positive response, I will be "go." If I get back one negative response, I will be "stop." Enjoy, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From george.deka at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 01:09:37 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:09:37 +1000 Subject: IRC meeting: please add your time preferences In-Reply-To: <20050415213931.GC8255@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <20050415213931.GC8255@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <72003cb7050417180974c2167c@mail.gmail.com> Sorry i could not make it, well actually i was awake but forgot. Summary and Log ? On 4/16/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2005, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > Even if someone there is already listing your times, can you add yours > > anyway? It will be majority rules when the times come into conflict. > > Last chance now... > > -Mary > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > -- Get Firefox! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Mon Apr 18 01:15:16 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:15:16 +1000 Subject: IRC meeting: please add your time preferences In-Reply-To: <72003cb7050417180974c2167c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <20050415213931.GC8255@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050417180974c2167c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050418011516.GI29529@home.puzzling.org> On Mon, Apr 18, 2005, George Deka wrote: > Sorry i could not make it, well actually i was awake but forgot. > Summary and Log ? Coming in about 12 hours time. The meeting concluded at 11:30pm my time: I didn't write up a summary immediately. -Mary From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 18 01:18:29 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 02:18:29 +0100 Subject: IRC meeting: please add your time preferences In-Reply-To: <20050418011516.GI29529@home.puzzling.org> References: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <20050415213931.GC8255@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050417180974c2167c@mail.gmail.com> <20050418011516.GI29529@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <1113787109.6904.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 11:15 +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2005, George Deka wrote: > > Sorry i could not make it, well actually i was awake but forgot. > > Summary and Log ? > > Coming in about 12 hours time. The meeting concluded at 11:30pm my time: > I didn't write up a summary immediately. In the meantime, you can find logs here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ Matt From jgotangco at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 01:21:29 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:21:29 +0800 Subject: IRC meeting: please add your time preferences In-Reply-To: <72003cb7050417180974c2167c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <20050415213931.GC8255@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050417180974c2167c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You can check out the chat log from #ubuntu-meeting at http://irclog.workaround.org/ it reversed though. Jerome On 4/18/05, George Deka wrote: > Sorry i could not make it, well actually i was awake but forgot. > Summary and Log ? > -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From george.deka at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 01:21:37 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:21:37 +1000 Subject: IRC meeting: please add your time preferences In-Reply-To: <20050418011516.GI29529@home.puzzling.org> References: <20050414205230.GE23409@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <20050415213931.GC8255@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050417180974c2167c@mail.gmail.com> <20050418011516.GI29529@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <72003cb7050417182169ce1021@mail.gmail.com> thanx for the mary, i would have missed it anyway i forgot about the DST change. (we are in the same timezone) On 4/18/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 18, 2005, George Deka wrote: > > Sorry i could not make it, well actually i was awake but forgot. > > Summary and Log ? > > Coming in about 12 hours time. The meeting concluded at 11:30pm my time: > I didn't write up a summary immediately. > > -Mary > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > -- Get Firefox! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffschering at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 02:25:06 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:25:06 -0700 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] In-Reply-To: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: On 4/17/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > > In closing, I would like to outline the five phase model that I an other > Technical Authors use to quality the stages of a publicationsdevelopment life > cycle. > Phase 1: Information Planning 10% > Phase 2: Content Specification 20% > Phase 3: Implementation 50% > Phase 4: Production 19% > Phase 5: Evaluation 1% > I agree with planning and having a definition of the audience. A document plan lets contributing writers know what is needed, where to put it, and whom to target the text to. I don't have a lot of faith in the outcome of the survey; I just don't think there will be very many responses, or at least not enough to make a valid assessment of the documentation's readership. On the other hand, what do I know? It could be a resounding success. I propose the following: Put the survey up and collect data until May 6 or thereabouts. If there is not enough data to make a valid determination of the audience, then we go with this definition of a typical Ubuntu user: "Someone who is new to Linux, but not new to computers." Fair enough? In any case, you can put me down as +1 Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From troywill1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 02:35:39 2005 From: troywill1 at gmail.com (Troy Williams) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:35:39 -0500 Subject: Hi, I would like to help! In-Reply-To: References: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42631CFB.9040700@gmail.com> Hi Jerome, Thanks very much for the information. I am sure it will be of great help. I apologize for not being able to make today's meeting. Hopefully, I will be able to attend the next. Is there a standing schedule for such meetings? Thanks again. Regards, Troy Jerome Gotangco wrote: >Hi Troy, > >Everyone is welcome to join the Documentation Team. Too bad you can't >come around in the scheduled meeting but results of that will >definitely be posted in the wiki. I'm sure you'll find something to >contribute when you get to see the whole picture of what's coming >ahead. Like Corey has said, the easiset way get yourself familiarized >with what we generally do is pull down our current documents from >subversion so you have yourself a working copy. This link will show >you how to do it: > >http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository > >Once you have a working copy, you'll see various files that comprise >the current efforts of the Documentation Team. Check out these files >at your pleasure. The xml files can be opened with yelp. You do not >need to know this stuff to join in, but it helps. Just ask away if >you're stumped and I'm sure the others will give a reply. > >Hope this helps, > >Jerome > > >On 4/17/05, Troy Williams wrote: > > >>Greetings, >> >>I am new to Ubuntu (not new to Linux, however) and I am very intrigued >>by the Ubuntu Community. I would like to help with the Documentation >>Team efforts. >> >>I guess I have the obvious question (I have read the Documentation Team >>page, ToDo Lists, etc.): Where should I begin? I am willing to assist >>where it is needed most or wherever the team might see fit. >> >>Please let me know if I can be of assistance...looking forward to being >>a part of this community. Thanks. >> >>Regards, >>Troy Williams >> >> > > > > From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Mon Apr 18 02:38:22 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:38:22 +1000 Subject: Hi, I would like to help! In-Reply-To: <42631CFB.9040700@gmail.com> References: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> <42631CFB.9040700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050418023822.GM29529@home.puzzling.org> On Sun, Apr 17, 2005, Troy Williams wrote: > I apologize for not being able to make today's meeting. Hopefully, I > will be able to attend the next. Is there a standing schedule for > such meetings? Thanks again. No, there hasn't been a need perceived for them to occur very frequently yet. And I think everyone's afraid of the "but why do *I* have to get up at 0300 every single week?" argument that would happen on the way to setting a regular time :) They tend to be scheduled whenever a few issues arise, and they're scheduled around people who let us know their preferred times. -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Mon Apr 18 03:30:05 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:30:05 +1000 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] In-Reply-To: References: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <426329BD.5070109@trickie.org> Jeff Schering wrote: > On 4/17/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > >>In closing, I would like to outline the five phase model that I an other >>Technical Authors use to quality the stages of a publicationsdevelopment life >>cycle. >>Phase 1: Information Planning 10% >>Phase 2: Content Specification 20% >>Phase 3: Implementation 50% >>Phase 4: Production 19% >>Phase 5: Evaluation 1% >> > > > I agree with planning and having a definition of the audience. A > document plan lets contributing writers know what is needed, where to > put it, and whom to target the text to. > > I don't have a lot of faith in the outcome of the survey; I just don't > think there will be very many responses, or at least not enough to > make a valid assessment of the documentation's readership. On the > other hand, what do I know? It could be a resounding success. > > I propose the following: Put the survey up and collect data until May > 6 or thereabouts. If there is not enough data to make a valid > determination of the audience, then we go with this definition of a > typical Ubuntu user: "Someone who is new to Linux, but not new to > computers." Fair enough? > > In any case, you can put me down as +1 > > Cheers, > Jeff > + 1 I am little doubtful of whether the survey will yield the response we want as well, but we can only try, and it makes sense to try and use production processes that have a proven record. I think we should definately use the techniques that Sean is sharing with us, because he has an extensive documentation background and experience, and even if it does not go off perfectly we have a process that can be built up as the doc team grows and as the ubuntu user base grows. Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From george.deka at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 04:26:18 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:26:18 +1000 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] In-Reply-To: <426329BD.5070109@trickie.org> References: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> <426329BD.5070109@trickie.org> Message-ID: <72003cb70504172126493eab12@mail.gmail.com> What we also need, is for devel etc, to blog about it so it gets on a few of the planets, ie. planetgnome and planetkde, so we have a wider audience. I agree with trickie, dont know if it will be that useful but +1 Hopefully this release cycle i will get more time to devote. On 4/18/05, Nick Loeve wrote: > > Jeff Schering wrote: > > On 4/17/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > > > >>In closing, I would like to outline the five phase model that I an other > >>Technical Authors use to quality the stages of a publicationsdevelopment > life > >>cycle. > >>Phase 1: Information Planning 10% > >>Phase 2: Content Specification 20% > >>Phase 3: Implementation 50% > >>Phase 4: Production 19% > >>Phase 5: Evaluation 1% > >> > > > > > > I agree with planning and having a definition of the audience. A > > document plan lets contributing writers know what is needed, where to > > put it, and whom to target the text to. > > > > I don't have a lot of faith in the outcome of the survey; I just don't > > think there will be very many responses, or at least not enough to > > make a valid assessment of the documentation's readership. On the > > other hand, what do I know? It could be a resounding success. > > > > I propose the following: Put the survey up and collect data until May > > 6 or thereabouts. If there is not enough data to make a valid > > determination of the audience, then we go with this definition of a > > typical Ubuntu user: "Someone who is new to Linux, but not new to > > computers." Fair enough? > > > > In any case, you can put me down as +1 > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > > + 1 > > I am little doubtful of whether the survey will yield the response we > want as well, but we can only try, and it makes sense to try and use > production processes that have a proven record. > > I think we should definately use the techniques that Sean is sharing > with us, because he has an extensive documentation background and > experience, and even if it does not go off perfectly we have a process > that can be built up as the doc team grows and as the ubuntu user base > grows. > > Cheers > trickie (Nick Loeve) > > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > -- Get Firefox! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Mon Apr 18 04:31:09 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:31:09 +1000 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] In-Reply-To: <72003cb70504172126493eab12@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> <426329BD.5070109@trickie.org> <72003cb70504172126493eab12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050418043109.GA31065@home.puzzling.org> On Mon, Apr 18, 2005, George Deka wrote: > What we also need, is for devel etc, to blog about it so it gets on a few of > the planets, ie. planetgnome and planetkde, so we have a wider audience. It might be useful if members of the docteam became Ubuntu Members as per: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/newmember This is what is required to have your blog syndicated on http://planet.ubuntu.com/ -Mary From jgotangco at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 04:46:36 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:46:36 +0800 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] In-Reply-To: <20050418043109.GA31065@home.puzzling.org> References: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> <426329BD.5070109@trickie.org> <72003cb70504172126493eab12@mail.gmail.com> <20050418043109.GA31065@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: Mary, Let's take the opportunity to have this accomplished at least this during UDU. I'm in this team for the long haul anyway so I think this is a good step. Jerome On 4/18/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2005, George Deka wrote: > > What we also need, is for devel etc, to blog about it so it gets on a few of > > the planets, ie. planetgnome and planetkde, so we have a wider audience. > > It might be useful if members of the docteam became Ubuntu Members as > per: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/newmember > > This is what is required to have your blog syndicated on > http://planet.ubuntu.com/ > > -Mary > From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Mon Apr 18 04:53:31 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:53:31 +1000 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] In-Reply-To: References: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> <426329BD.5070109@trickie.org> <72003cb70504172126493eab12@mail.gmail.com> <20050418043109.GA31065@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <20050418045331.GB31065@home.puzzling.org> On Mon, Apr 18, 2005, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > Mary, > > Let's take the opportunity to have this accomplished at least this > during UDU. I'm in this team for the long haul anyway so I think this > is a good step. I don't know if there's a Community Council meeting pending, or whether one is being held at UDU. The Community Council webpages are all still advertising the last meeting on the 13th April. However, UDU would be a good opportunity to get to know enough of the existing community to be able to satisfy the Community Council's requirements for membership. People wanting to become members should make a wiki page about themselves giving some background and an overview of existing contributions to Ubuntu... -Mary From robitaille at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 05:19:11 2005 From: robitaille at gmail.com (Daniel Robitaille) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:19:11 -0700 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] In-Reply-To: <20050418045331.GB31065@home.puzzling.org> References: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> <426329BD.5070109@trickie.org> <72003cb70504172126493eab12@mail.gmail.com> <20050418043109.GA31065@home.puzzling.org> <20050418045331.GB31065@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <1113801551.8961.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-18-04 at 14:53 +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote: > I don't know if there's a Community Council meeting pending, or whether > one is being held at UDU. The Community Council webpages are all still > advertising the last meeting on the 13th April. well, there was a meeting held on 13th...sort of. At the scheduled time of the meeting, no member of the Community Council were present on IRC (the council has 4 members). After a wait of 1 hour finally one showed up (Mako, after someone called his cell phone), and a meeting was finally held; but since he was alone he couldn't vote on any motions or new memberships. The date of the next meeting hasn't been announced yet. > However, UDU would be a good opportunity to get to know enough of the > existing community to be able to satisfy the Community Council's > requirements for membership. While I haven't been involved in the documentation team yet, something that will hopefully change for Breezy as it is one of my current goal to help your group a small way in incoming months, I have been working recently to become an Ubuntu member myself (hopefully a quest with a positive outcome at the next CC meeting). As such it is my personal opinion that some members of the doc team have more than enough met the requirement for membership. http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/newmember "A person who wants to become a member should be engaged in a sustained level of contribution to the Ubuntu community. This can include coding, writing or documentation, the creation of art-work, music, testing, bug triage and verification, translation, advocacy, leadership of LoCo teams, etc. Contributions should be significant and visible. Anybody who is active in the Ubuntu community is a good candidate for Ubuntu membership." > People wanting to become members should make a wiki page about > themselves giving some background and an overview of existing > contributions to Ubuntu... Yes, that's the first step. Create a wiki, document your contributions. Find some current members of the Ubuntu community ready to "testify" about your contributions to Ubuntu, add your name to the agenda for the next community council, show up at the meeting, and hopefully they will accept you as a member :) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From george.deka at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 05:37:01 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:37:01 +1000 Subject: Survey of Ubuntu Users [long] In-Reply-To: <1113801551.8961.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200504171232.46265.sean@inwords.co.za> <426329BD.5070109@trickie.org> <72003cb70504172126493eab12@mail.gmail.com> <20050418043109.GA31065@home.puzzling.org> <20050418045331.GB31065@home.puzzling.org> <1113801551.8961.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <72003cb705041722375a687283@mail.gmail.com> So maybe i should become a member, that way my voice will actually be heard. I know i dont do much documentation as such (i am time poor atm), but i have ideas etc. Also, whilist i wont be at UDU, if you want to talk 2 me, i can get on the phone, only an interstate call away. On 4/18/05, Daniel Robitaille wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-18-04 at 14:53 +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > > I don't know if there's a Community Council meeting pending, or whether > > one is being held at UDU. The Community Council webpages are all still > > advertising the last meeting on the 13th April. > > well, there was a meeting held on 13th...sort of. At the scheduled time > of the meeting, no member of the Community Council were present on IRC > (the council has 4 members). After a wait of 1 hour finally one showed > up (Mako, after someone called his cell phone), and a meeting was > finally held; but since he was alone he couldn't vote on any motions or > new memberships. The date of the next meeting hasn't been announced yet. > > > > However, UDU would be a good opportunity to get to know enough of the > > existing community to be able to satisfy the Community Council's > > requirements for membership. > > While I haven't been involved in the documentation team yet, something > that will hopefully change for Breezy as it is one of my current goal to > help your group a small way in incoming months, I have been working > recently to become an Ubuntu member myself (hopefully a quest with a > positive outcome at the next CC meeting). As such it is my personal > opinion that some members of the doc team have more than enough met the > requirement for membership. > > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/processes/newmember > > "A person who wants to become a member should be engaged in a sustained > level of contribution to the Ubuntu community. This can include coding, > writing or documentation, the creation of art-work, music, testing, bug > triage and verification, translation, advocacy, leadership of LoCo > teams, etc. Contributions should be significant and visible. Anybody who > is active in the Ubuntu community is a good candidate for Ubuntu > membership." > > > People wanting to become members should make a wiki page about > > themselves giving some background and an overview of existing > > contributions to Ubuntu... > > Yes, that's the first step. Create a wiki, document your contributions. > Find some current members of the Ubuntu community ready to "testify" > about your contributions to Ubuntu, add your name to the agenda for the > next community council, show up at the meeting, and hopefully they will > accept you as a member :) > > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > > > > -- Get Firefox! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whorush at comcast.net Mon Apr 18 08:02:58 2005 From: whorush at comcast.net (whorush at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:02:58 +0000 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place Message-ID: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> hi everyone, i'm a sort of newbie and i'm trying to install the programs that i'm used to from MS and i've been having a really hard time navigating the documentation, it seems like stuff is a bit scattered. i want suggest a link under the Documentation heading here, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage it could be called Install Programs and Pluggins in there we'd have all the standards flash, java, mplayer, mp3 support, realplayer, etc. we might want something indicating whether its free or non-free. I think this is useful, it seems like a lot of pages try to do too much like, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions this way, we'd have all installs, supported and non-supported under one roof. i think this would make it easier to find out how to install something and it would help unclutter other stuff. i was going to suggest that we could start by making the page and then looking through the wiki and moving stuff into it. i'm new to this gig, so i couldnt lead such a project but i'd love to help if you guys think this is worth while. what do you all think? From corey.burger at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 08:28:14 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:28:14 -0700 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place In-Reply-To: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> Message-ID: <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/05, whorush at comcast.net wrote: > hi everyone, i'm a sort of newbie and i'm trying to install the programs that i'm used to from MS and i've been having a really hard time navigating the documentation, it seems like stuff is a bit scattered. > > i want suggest a link under the Documentation heading here, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage > > it could be called Install Programs and Pluggins > > in there we'd have all the standards flash, java, mplayer, mp3 support, realplayer, etc. > > we might want something indicating whether its free or non-free. > > I think this is useful, it seems like a lot of pages try to do too much like, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > > this way, we'd have all installs, supported and non-supported under one roof. i think this would make it easier to find out how to install something and it would help unclutter other stuff. > > i was going to suggest that we could start by making the page and then looking through the wiki and moving stuff into it. > > i'm new to this gig, so i couldnt lead such a project but i'd love to help if you guys think this is worth while. > > what do you all think? There are already pages for most of what you propose. What is really needed is a "1st 20 minutes FAQ". Wikis being wikis, you can create that page, so that all of us and the general public can make it most useful. Corey From george.deka at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 09:38:26 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:38:26 +1000 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place In-Reply-To: <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <72003cb7050418023876f6e8e4@mail.gmail.com> It would solve all of our beginner issues if we linked to the After Hoary Install Script, it installs all that nice stuff for you. Personally i think the script should be included with ubuntu, and then on first boot it asks you if you want to run it and install all that info. On 4/18/05, Corey Burger wrote: > > On 4/18/05, whorush at comcast.net wrote: > > hi everyone, i'm a sort of newbie and i'm trying to install the programs > that i'm used to from MS and i've been having a really hard time navigating > the documentation, it seems like stuff is a bit scattered. > > > > i want suggest a link under the Documentation heading here, > https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage > > > > it could be called Install Programs and Pluggins > > > > in there we'd have all the standards flash, java, mplayer, mp3 support, > realplayer, etc. > > > > we might want something indicating whether its free or non-free. > > > > I think this is useful, it seems like a lot of pages try to do too much > like, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > > > > this way, we'd have all installs, supported and non-supported under one > roof. i think this would make it easier to find out how to install something > and it would help unclutter other stuff. > > > > i was going to suggest that we could start by making the page and then > looking through the wiki and moving stuff into it. > > > > i'm new to this gig, so i couldnt lead such a project but i'd love to > help if you guys think this is worth while. > > > > what do you all think? > > There are already pages for most of what you propose. What is really > needed is a "1st 20 minutes FAQ". Wikis being wikis, you can create > that page, so that all of us and the general public can make it most > useful. > > Corey > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > -- Get Firefox! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corey.burger at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 09:49:41 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 02:49:41 -0700 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place In-Reply-To: <72003cb7050418023876f6e8e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb7050418023876f6e8e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <348bd6da050418024924c5955a@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/05, George Deka wrote: > It would solve all of our beginner issues if we linked to the After Hoary > Install Script, it installs all that nice stuff for you. > Personally i think the script should be included with ubuntu, and then on > first boot it asks you if you want to run it and install all that info. > > > On 4/18/05, Corey Burger wrote: > > > > On 4/18/05, whorush at comcast.net wrote: > > > hi everyone, i'm a sort of newbie and i'm trying to install the programs > that i'm used to from MS and i've been having a really hard time navigating > the documentation, it seems like stuff is a bit scattered. > > > > > > i want suggest a link under the Documentation heading here, > https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage > > > > > > it could be called Install Programs and Pluggins > > > > > > in there we'd have all the standards flash, java, mplayer, mp3 support, > realplayer, etc. > > > > > > we might want something indicating whether its free or non-free. > > > > > > I think this is useful, it seems like a lot of pages try to do too much > like, > https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions > > > > > > this way, we'd have all installs, supported and non-supported under one > roof. i think this would make it easier to find out how to install > something and it would help unclutter other stuff. > > > > > > i was going to suggest that we could start by making the page and then > looking through the wiki and moving stuff into it. > > > > > > i'm new to this gig, so i couldnt lead such a project but i'd love to > help if you guys think this is worth while. > > > > > > what do you all think? > > > > There are already pages for most of what you propose. What is really > > needed is a "1st 20 minutes FAQ". Wikis being wikis, you can create > > that page, so that all of us and the general public can make it most Sorry, George, but there is nothing in that script that makes me want to recommend it. I have dealt with its aftermath on #ubuntu. Corey From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 18 09:49:35 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:49:35 +0200 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place In-Reply-To: <72003cb7050418023876f6e8e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb7050418023876f6e8e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504181149.38952.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 18 April 2005 11:38, George Deka wrote: > It would solve all of our beginner issues if we linked to the After Hoary > Install Script, it installs all that nice stuff for you. Personally i think > the script should be included with ubuntu, and then on first boot it asks > you if you want to run it and install all that info. Hello George, So good to see you are becoming more active on the list. Your ideas an input are valuable. We need as much breadth of perspective on this as possible. Could I however ask that you please not top post. The mailing list is more than just a way to communicate, it is an archive, and top posting really makes it hard to read the archives in of a thread. It would help if you could bottom post and cut off anything that is not related to your responses. The script idea is cool. Could you compile a list of it and perhaps script it for us. I don't think we can package it, but we can most certainly put it up for download. Keep inmind that some people will not want to install all the cool stuff, so there must be an easy and documented way for them to customize the script. Perhaps once we see the script we can create an interface with checkboxes to include or exclude items. Nice idea. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jalrnc at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 14:36:53 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:36:53 -0400 Subject: quickguide-pt Message-ID: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I'm representing the Portuguese LoCoTeam and we're currently working on the "quickguide" translation to Portuguese (pt). We've checked out the quickguide templates with subversion from trunk, and we're following the same process we did for the about-ubuntu and release-notes translations. Please let us know if we should use another method instead (or Rosetta, etc.). Thanks, Jo?o -- http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PortugueseTeam From jgotangco at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 14:54:38 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:54:38 +0800 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jo?o, As far as I recall (need to check list archives), all i18n stuff should be now done in Rosetta, especially if the files you have been doing are already available there. There's no problem with continuing the work your team is doing at the moment (and with the method they're comfortable with for now). If you're ready with it, just send the po file and we'll commit. Hope this helps, Jerome On 4/18/05, Jo?o Cruz wrote: > Hi, I'm representing the Portuguese LoCoTeam and we're currently > working on the "quickguide" translation to Portuguese (pt). We've > checked out the quickguide templates with subversion from trunk, and > we're following the same process we did for the about-ubuntu and > release-notes translations. Please let us know if we should use > another method instead (or Rosetta, etc.). > > Thanks, > Jo?o > > -- > http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/ > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PortugueseTeam > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From jgotangco at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 15:17:03 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:17:03 +0800 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Please let us know if we should use > another method instead (or Rosetta, etc.). OK need to correct myself after checking some stuff. If you notice, Rosetta is all about applications and not documents (at the moment). I'd recommend your team to continue doing the translation from trunk and we'll commit. -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From carlos.perello at canonical.com Mon Apr 18 15:21:23 2005 From: carlos.perello at canonical.com (Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Perell=F3_Mar=EDn?=) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:21:23 +0200 Subject: translating quickguide - thoughts post hoary In-Reply-To: References: <1112817325.7911.25.camel@paroz> <42550465.5000600@canonical.com> <1113307689.8994.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113837683.5651.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 14:19 +0100, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > I've reinserted ubuntu-doc into CC for this message. Ok. > > The thing that worried me the most when starting this thread was that the > only translation that we pulled out of Rosetta for the Hoary release (de) > had some problems when we converted it to xml, due to (i think?) a different > type of character set. I also noted that the quickguide didn't make it into > Rosetta (is there a problem with it?) Please, could you open a bug with the changes you had to do with the .po file you got from Rosetta? That way we can debug it and fix the problem. About the quickguide, I don't understand it, but seems like I forgot to add it :-? Sorry. It should appear today. > > For these reasons I was asking about whether Rosetta is the best way to > continue translation of docteam documentation (obviously it has many > advantages, the primary one being that many people can work on it at the > same time without difficulties with coordination). Can we work out a way to > solve these problems? Is it possible to insert the larger of the docteam > documents into Rosetta, and were the problems that we experiences caused by > our po. generation methods/ xml generation methods? Well, as I said, all feature we have atm in Rosetta is only to handle translations of applications, it should work with documentation, but there could be problems. If you report any problems you detect we will try to fix them so your life is easier. > > As for screenshots, I think that since it is very difficult to get a way of > uploading these to Rosetta, it is not exactly a problem for the docteam to > install language packs and take the screenshots in the relevant languages. I > don't think that would require too much work on our part. I suppose we could implement a way to handle that with Rosetta, so you can get a list of screenshots in english and you can see the ones that are missing and in which languages. Don't count with it in the near feature, but it's just a possible idea to do it easier to you. As I said, fill the wish list page with all the requirements you have and we will try to implement them as soon as possible. Cheers. > > Matt > -- Carlos Perell? Mar?n Ubuntu Hoary (PowerPC) => http://www.ubuntulinux.org mailto:carlos.perello at canonical.com http://carlos.pemas.net Valencia - Spain -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jalrnc at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 15:24:52 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:24:52 -0400 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> Cool, we'll do that. Jo?o -- http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PortugueseTeam On 4/18/05, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > > Please let us know if we should use > > another method instead (or Rosetta, etc.). > > OK need to correct myself after checking some stuff. If you notice, > Rosetta is all about applications and not documents (at the moment). > I'd recommend your team to continue doing the translation from trunk > and we'll commit. > > -- > Jerome S. Gotangco > GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu > IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph > From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 18 15:32:12 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:32:12 +0100 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: [ISO-8859-1] Jo?o Cruz writes: > Cool, we'll do that. Hi Jo?o, Couple of things you ought to note: 1. If you translate the quickguide and we commit it to our repository, it will not get into hoary: hoary has now been released and it is pretty unlikely that we will be doing any more uploads. I know there are some language-pack uploads intended, and we can maybe take that up with the relevant people to see if there is _any_ possibility of getting it in. 2. Naturally before the next release the quickguide is likely to change: we will be freezing it again for translation before release, this time hopefully we will have a better system for arranging translations than for hoary, which was very last minute. 3. With this in mind, we will be speaking with the people who run rosetta to try and explore the possibility of getting our documentation translated via rosetta. We have some problems that we need to iron out with them. In conclusion, hopefully we will have an effective translation methodology in plenty of time to allow the documentation for breezy (the next version of ubuntu) to be translated, before release. Matt From whorush at comcast.net Mon Apr 18 15:59:35 2005 From: whorush at comcast.net (whorush at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:59:35 +0000 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place Message-ID: <041820051559.27500.4263D967000760C100006B6C2200734830089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> guys, thanks for the responses. corey, true, there are pages for this, but i'm saying there are a bunch and they are all over the place. i think a first 20 minutes faq would make it worse. we'd have some documentation in there on how to install programs, some other things and ALL of those things would be elsewhere. so it would be even more like the way things are now, where there are multiple coppies in multiple places. say you want to update one of those things, to be through, you'd need to search the whole wiki and find all occurences and update them. i'm saying we could start by organizing the wiki a little better, not by making more general purpose pages but by making a single page for installing programs and pluggins. as a real live newbie, i understand the newbie psychology a bit. a newbie starts out and he has a list of tasks. mine is install realplayer, mplayer, flash, java, mp3 support, mount my windows drive and make grub boot it. i think that should be in separte wiki's, for example, one for installing programs and pluggins and one for configuring ubuntu to love windows. george, i love the idea of a script, but i think it would be way easier to do once all the docs for installs are in one place and no where else. anyone agree? From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 18 16:03:17 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:03:17 +0100 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place In-Reply-To: <041820051559.27500.4263D967000760C100006B6C2200734830089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> References: <041820051559.27500.4263D967000760C100006B6C2200734830089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> Message-ID: whorush at comcast.net writes: > guys, thanks for the responses. > > corey, true, there are pages for this, but i'm saying there are a bunch and they are all over the place. i think a first 20 minutes faq would make it worse. we'd have some documentation in there on how to install programs, some other things and ALL of those things would be elsewhere. so it would be even more like the way things are now, where there are multiple coppies in multiple places. say you want to update one of those things, to be through, you'd need to search the whole wiki and find all occurences and update them. > > i'm saying we could start by organizing the wiki a little better, not by making more general purpose pages but by making a single page for installing programs and pluggins. Have you seen this page: http://www.ubuntuguide.org ? I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. thanks again for sharing your experiences, it is important to us :) Matt From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 18 16:05:36 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:05:36 +0100 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place In-Reply-To: References: <041820051559.27500.4263D967000760C100006B6C2200734830089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> Message-ID: matthew.east at breathe.com writes: > whorush at comcast.net writes: Also, forgot to say again, don't forget to add your thoughts to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure! Thanks again, Matt From corey.burger at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 16:12:16 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:12:16 -0700 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place In-Reply-To: References: <041820051559.27500.4263D967000760C100006B6C2200734830089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> Message-ID: <348bd6da050418091241dcb3c3@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/05, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > matthew.east at breathe.com writes: > > > whorush at comcast.net writes: > > Also, forgot to say again, don't forget to add your thoughts to > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure! > > Thanks again, Matt > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > Sorry, 1st 20 minutes idea was not to put all the information on that page, put to organize it into a collection of links, walking the user through each page as they need it. Corey From whorush at comcast.net Mon Apr 18 16:16:53 2005 From: whorush at comcast.net (whorush at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:16:53 +0000 Subject: how to install programs and pluggins in one place Message-ID: <041820051616.989.4263DD74000DE3AA000003DD2200734830089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> matt, thats exactly what i'm talking about. its very simple, look down the list, how to install this, how to install that, you can look through and find your question and answer. he has a bunch of different headers in one page, i think if we did it on this site, we'd have too much stuff and there would probably wind up being a page for every heading of his like Getting Started, Repositories, Ubuntu Updates, etc. but thats just a for instance. still i think we should organize our wiki in this spirit and make it as easy to navigate. From jalrnc at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 16:55:02 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:55:02 -0400 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Matt! I think we should wait for the final word on the new process then. In the mean time, we may still work on the existing quickguide so when the freeze comes hopefully we'll be able to reuse parts of it for the final translation. Jo?o On 4/18/05, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > [ISO-8859-1] Jo?o Cruz writes: > > > Cool, we'll do that. > > Hi Jo?o, > > Couple of things you ought to note: > > 1. If you translate the quickguide and we commit it to our repository, it > will not get into hoary: hoary has now been released and it is pretty > unlikely that we will be doing any more uploads. I know there are some > language-pack uploads intended, and we can maybe take that up with the > relevant people to see if there is _any_ possibility of getting it in. > > 2. Naturally before the next release the quickguide is likely to change: we > will be freezing it again for translation before release, this time > hopefully we will have a better system for arranging translations than for > hoary, which was very last minute. > > 3. With this in mind, we will be speaking with the people who run rosetta to > try and explore the possibility of getting our documentation translated via > rosetta. We have some problems that we need to iron out with them. > > In conclusion, hopefully we will have an effective translation methodology > in plenty of time to allow the documentation for breezy (the next version of > ubuntu) to be translated, before release. > > Matt > From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 18 23:29:57 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:29:57 +0100 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Jo?o On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 12:55 -0400, Jo?o Cruz wrote: > Thanks Matt! > > I think we should wait for the final word on the new process then. In > the mean time, we may still work on the existing quickguide so when > the freeze comes hopefully we'll be able to reuse parts of it for the > final translation. Sean and I had some long discussions with Carlos (from Rosetta) this evening about the process, and have agreed to _attempt_ to get a process going whereby translations in Rosetta will get uploaded as language updates into Hoary. We are fairly positive it is possible. The Quickguide has now been added to Rosetta, and when it is translated, we hope to be able to get it into hoary as an update. Even if not, as you mention yourself, it will be merged into Rosetta for the next release (Breezy Badger), so that will reduce the workloads on the parts that do not change between releases. Thanks very much for sparking this initiative :) regards, Matt --- for docteam members: a longer explanatory email will hopefully follow about this process tomorrow when I get time to summarise our meeting with Carlos. Obviously a number of difficulties will have to be overcome if this dream is to work :) -- Matthew East matthew.east at breathe.com gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF 2005-04-06 From matthew.east at breathe.com Mon Apr 18 23:32:32 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:32:32 +0100 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113867153.6382.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> > The Quickguide has now been added to Rosetta, and when it is translated, > we hope to be able to get it into hoary as an update. Even if not, as > you mention yourself, it will be merged into Rosetta for the next > release (Breezy Badger), so that will reduce the workloads on the parts > that do not change between releases. One more thing, for convenience, the quickguide is here: https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/quickguide I know Rosetta is not very easy to navigate!! M From mpt at myrealbox.com Tue Apr 19 00:38:42 2005 From: mpt at myrealbox.com (Matthew Thomas) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:38:42 +1200 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> Corey Burger wrote: >... > There are already pages for most of what you propose. What is really > needed is a "1st 20 minutes FAQ". Wikis being wikis, you can create > that page, so that all of us and the general public can make it most > useful. >... Maybe it's time we went on an anti-"FAQ" jihad throughout the wiki. Answering frequently asked questions seems like a great idea from the writer's point of view (and I say this as a former FAQ author), but from the point of view of someone looking for help, they probably have *absolutely no idea* whether the question they want an answer to is one that's frequently asked by other people or not. (They may not even know what "FAQ" stands for.) Instead we could sort documents by topic -- "Installation", "Hardware", "Playing movies and music", "Specialty software and how to find it", and so on. *Then* if wiki stats (or forum questions) show us that some pages are wanted much more often than others, quick links to those pages can be put at the top of category pages in addition to their places in the appropriate subcategories. -- Matthew Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 19 00:45:56 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (Matthew East) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:45:56 +0100 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 12:38 +1200, Matthew Thomas wrote: > Instead we could sort documents by topic -- "Installation", "Hardware", > "Playing movies and music", "Specialty software and how to find it", and > so on. *Then* if wiki stats (or forum questions) show us that some pages > are wanted much more often than others, quick links to those pages can > be put at the top of category pages in addition to their places in the > appropriate subcategories. I would like to renew my plea, slightly desperate now, for people to have a look at the following page, where some ideas have been developed on this question, and to add comments!!!! http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure -- Matthew East matthew.east at breathe.com gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF 2005-04-06 From jgotangco at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 00:49:19 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:49:19 +0800 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: > Instead we could sort documents by topic -- "Installation", "Hardware", > "Playing movies and music", "Specialty software and how to find it", and > so on. OK last night, I made a draft of a Quick Guide for Kubuntu and committed it today to svn. It doesn't contain that much at the moment, but I've made a chapter entitled "How to use the Guide" and it had the following sections: 1. If you're new to GNU/Linux 2. If you're switching to Kubuntu from another distribution 3. If you're a veteran GNU/Linux user >From these three sections we can easily create sub-sections specific to the user level. I haven't coded much of it but I do have a draft in a text file. But I believe these three sections can make the writing of documentation much easier in my opinion and can also apply to our wiki. -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 19 00:51:48 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:51:48 +1000 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20050419005148.GA4714@home.puzzling.org> On Tue, Apr 19, 2005, Matthew Thomas wrote: > Instead we could sort documents by topic -- "Installation", "Hardware", > "Playing movies and music", "Specialty software and how to find it", and > so on. *Then* if wiki stats (or forum questions) show us that some pages > are wanted much more often than others, quick links to those pages can > be put at the top of category pages in addition to their places in the > appropriate subcategories. +1 From whorush at comcast.net Tue Apr 19 02:15:23 2005 From: whorush at comcast.net (whorush at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:15:23 +0000 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful Message-ID: <041920050215.4023.426469BB000A118300000FB72200734830089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> i hope i don't start another new topic with this! i totally agree, FAQs are usually not very helpful. again, i think people have tasks, they come to the documentation to figure out how to get them done. therefore, i think that documentation should be organized by tasks. what FAQ is my question in? besides, there are so many FAQs! and they overlap, often giving conflicting info. again, i also think this makes the whole structure incredibly hard to maintain, but i'm new here, so of course, i wouldn't know. ;-) point is though, say you want to change something, its going to be a lot easier if there's only one entry in one place. so yeah i would like to sign up for the jihad. MATT EAST, i read your site. few things. under the heading ?Wiki Subject Matter?... the Documentation heading, what does that mean? isn't this all documentation? isn't anything that would be under Hardware documentation also? it would help if you put in there what was supposed to go in these categories. just a general idea. FAQ. sorry, just joined the jihad. Installation Documentation. :-) Desktop Documentation, what would go in there? that seems incredibly general. System Documentation, again, super general. thinking out loud, 1 how to use the wiki 2 installation documentation, how to install java, realplayer, etc. 3 ubuntu loves WINDOWS documentation, with stuff like how to mount your windows drive and how to get grub to recognize the partition, etc. 4 Hardware Support, or Driver Suport documentation i'm a newbie, so my scope is pretty limited. > Corey Burger wrote: > >... > > There are already pages for most of what you propose. What is really > > needed is a "1st 20 minutes FAQ". Wikis being wikis, you can create > > that page, so that all of us and the general public can make it most > > useful. > >... > > Maybe it's time we went on an anti-"FAQ" jihad throughout the wiki. > Answering frequently asked questions seems like a great idea from the > writer's point of view (and I say this as a former FAQ author), but from > the point of view of someone looking for help, they probably have > *absolutely no idea* whether the question they want an answer to is one > that's frequently asked by other people or not. (They may not even know > what "FAQ" stands for.) > > Instead we could sort documents by topic -- "Installation", "Hardware", > "Playing movies and music", "Specialty software and how to find it", and > so on. *Then* if wiki stats (or forum questions) show us that some pages > are wanted much more often than others, quick links to those pages can > be put at the top of category pages in addition to their places in the > appropriate subcategories. > > -- > Matthew Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc From jalrnc at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 02:22:34 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:22:34 -0400 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <8e6ff2e3050418192277a683c9@mail.gmail.com> Sure, that's great :) Jo?o -- http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PortugueseTeam On 4/18/05, Matthew East wrote: > Hi Jo?o > > On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 12:55 -0400, Jo?o Cruz wrote: > > Thanks Matt! > > > > I think we should wait for the final word on the new process then. In > > the mean time, we may still work on the existing quickguide so when > > the freeze comes hopefully we'll be able to reuse parts of it for the > > final translation. > > Sean and I had some long discussions with Carlos (from Rosetta) this > evening about the process, and have agreed to _attempt_ to get a process > going whereby translations in Rosetta will get uploaded as language > updates into Hoary. We are fairly positive it is possible. > > The Quickguide has now been added to Rosetta, and when it is translated, > we hope to be able to get it into hoary as an update. Even if not, as > you mention yourself, it will be merged into Rosetta for the next > release (Breezy Badger), so that will reduce the workloads on the parts > that do not change between releases. > > Thanks very much for sparking this initiative :) > > regards, Matt > > --- > > for docteam members: a longer explanatory email will hopefully follow > about this process tomorrow when I get time to summarise our meeting > with Carlos. Obviously a number of difficulties will have to be overcome > if this dream is to work :) > > -- > Matthew East > matthew.east at breathe.com > gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF 2005-04-06 > > From jjesse at iserv.net Tue Apr 19 02:33:02 2005 From: jjesse at iserv.net (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:33:02 -0400 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <041920050215.4023.426469BB000A118300000FB72200734830089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> Message-ID: +1 to this. When I was looking for an issue w/ Warty when I first started using Ubuntu, I turned not to the documentation but to the Wiki and also my favorit tool: google, which linked back to the Wiki. Search: ubuntu problems w/ mp3 playback Search: ubuntu setting up nvidia drivers and then I found the correct spot on the wiki. Maybe we are trying to hard to recreate the wheel? To be honest, I didn't read the quickguide until I started working w/ the doc group. Everything else I found on the web. -----Original Message----- From: ubuntu-doc-bounces at lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-doc-bounces at lists.ubuntu.com]On Behalf Of whorush at comcast.net Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 10:15 PM To: Matthew Thomas; Ubuntu Doc List Subject: Re: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful i hope i don't start another new topic with this! i totally agree, FAQs are usually not very helpful. again, i think people have tasks, they come to the documentation to figure out how to get them done. therefore, i think that documentation should be organized by tasks. what FAQ is my question in? besides, there are so many FAQs! and they overlap, often giving conflicting info. again, i also think this makes the whole structure incredibly hard to maintain, but i'm new here, so of course, i wouldn't know. ;-) point is though, say you want to change something, its going to be a lot easier if there's only one entry in one place. so yeah i would like to sign up for the jihad. MATT EAST, i read your site. few things. under the heading ?Wiki Subject Matter?... the Documentation heading, what does that mean? isn't this all documentation? isn't anything that would be under Hardware documentation also? it would help if you put in there what was supposed to go in these categories. just a general idea. FAQ. sorry, just joined the jihad. Installation Documentation. :-) Desktop Documentation, what would go in there? that seems incredibly general. System Documentation, again, super general. thinking out loud, 1 how to use the wiki 2 installation documentation, how to install java, realplayer, etc. 3 ubuntu loves WINDOWS documentation, with stuff like how to mount your windows drive and how to get grub to recognize the partition, etc. 4 Hardware Support, or Driver Suport documentation i'm a newbie, so my scope is pretty limited. > Corey Burger wrote: > >... > > There are already pages for most of what you propose. What is really > > needed is a "1st 20 minutes FAQ". Wikis being wikis, you can create > > that page, so that all of us and the general public can make it most > > useful. > >... > > Maybe it's time we went on an anti-"FAQ" jihad throughout the wiki. > Answering frequently asked questions seems like a great idea from the > writer's point of view (and I say this as a former FAQ author), but from > the point of view of someone looking for help, they probably have > *absolutely no idea* whether the question they want an answer to is one > that's frequently asked by other people or not. (They may not even know > what "FAQ" stands for.) > > Instead we could sort documents by topic -- "Installation", "Hardware", > "Playing movies and music", "Specialty software and how to find it", and > so on. *Then* if wiki stats (or forum questions) show us that some pages > are wanted much more often than others, quick links to those pages can > be put at the top of category pages in addition to their places in the > appropriate subcategories. > > -- > Matthew Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc -- ubuntu-doc mailing list ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc From bubbly1 at speedlink.com.au Tue Apr 19 02:33:03 2005 From: bubbly1 at speedlink.com.au (Liz) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:33:03 +1000 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <42646DDF.7070101@speedlink.com.au> > > >http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure > > +1 From jalrnc at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 02:37:34 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:37:34 -0400 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <1113867153.6382.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1113867153.6382.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <8e6ff2e3050418193750d440b1@mail.gmail.com> Cool, thanks. By the way, Rosetta looks good but I noticed the AboutUbuntu and ReleaseNotes still show an empty translation for Portuguese, even though they have been fully translated, checked in with subversion, and included in hoary. Maybe we should upload the translated -pt.po files (about-ubuntu and release-notes) into Rosetta for consistency? And specially given that we will probably start using Rosetta for future modifications of these documents. I don't think I have permissions to upload those .po files, is there someone around to do it? Thanks again, Jo?o -- http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PortugueseTeam On 4/18/05, Matthew East wrote: > > The Quickguide has now been added to Rosetta, and when it is translated, > > we hope to be able to get it into hoary as an update. Even if not, as > > you mention yourself, it will be merged into Rosetta for the next > > release (Breezy Badger), so that will reduce the workloads on the parts > > that do not change between releases. > > One more thing, for convenience, the quickguide is here: > > https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/quickguide > > I know Rosetta is not very easy to navigate!! > > M > > From ari.torhamo at saunalahti.fi Tue Apr 19 02:53:11 2005 From: ari.torhamo at saunalahti.fi (Ari Torhamo) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:53:11 +0300 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <1113879191.7994.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> ti, 2005-04-19 kello 12:38 +1200, Matthew Thomas kirjoitti: > Corey Burger wrote: > >... > > There are already pages for most of what you propose. What is really > > needed is a "1st 20 minutes FAQ". Wikis being wikis, you can create > > that page, so that all of us and the general public can make it most > > useful. > >... > > Maybe it's time we went on an anti-"FAQ" jihad throughout the wiki. > Answering frequently asked questions seems like a great idea from the > writer's point of view (and I say this as a former FAQ author), but from > the point of view of someone looking for help, they probably have > *absolutely no idea* whether the question they want an answer to is one > that's frequently asked by other people or not. (They may not even know > what "FAQ" stands for.) > > Instead we could sort documents by topic -- "Installation", "Hardware", > "Playing movies and music", "Specialty software and how to find it", and > so on. *Then* if wiki stats (or forum questions) show us that some pages > are wanted much more often than others, quick links to those pages can > be put at the top of category pages in addition to their places in the > appropriate subcategories. > > -- > Matthew Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ I too would like to get rid of the FAQs. When I look at documentation as a process - something that evolves, it seems that FAQs typically represent the most primitive stage of that evolution. According to my own observations typical properties of FAQs are: -disorganization -limited coverage -varying quality of answers -inconsistent style Ofcourse there are reasons for this in how FAQs evolve, but I won't try to analyze them here. More important in my opinion is to put the concept of FAQ aside and start structuring the documentation from a different starting point as you are suggesting. Task oriented approach seems most natural to me when thinking documentation from the user's point of view. There's no point in trying to make a hybrid that combines qualities of an FAQ and task oriented documentation. The better the documentation gets, the less it reminds an FAQ. At the end the only remaining thing from an FAQ would be the titles/headers (wasn't sure of the right english term here) in question form - and they would have to go too. Why? because of this: How do I play movies? How do I listen to music? How do I share my files with others? How do I print documents? Playing movies Listening to music Sharing files with others Printing documents Adding "How do I" and a question mark to every question gives no value to the reader. The guide doesn't get more organized and you don't find what you are looking for any faster or easier than without those additions - the opposite might actually be true. As you may already have guessed, I give my full support for the "anti-FAQ jihad" (should we give it an other name? :) Kindest regards Ari Torhamo From jgotangco at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 03:07:34 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:07:34 +0800 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <1113879191.7994.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113879191.7994.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Anyone is free to start this FAQ-jihad anyway with the wiki, that's what it's for. Just create a page that you think would suit the wiki, give it your best shot, and we'll discuss about it as a group, post comments on the wiki page, in the chatroom or in this list. As far as docbook development is concerned, documents get frozen after every release so the wiki should evolve as needed when our docbook pages do not help. At the moment, after Hoary release, we're starting anew for Breezy and everyone is welcome to plunge it with their ideas. We're thinking out of the box this time with regards to this and have considered a lot of ideas we've seen from this list, the forums, and our recent irc meetings. Note to docbook development: it should post relevant links to the wiki Note to wiki page development: it should be version controlled as well. -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From whorush at comcast.net Tue Apr 19 04:58:31 2005 From: whorush at comcast.net (whorush at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 04:58:31 +0000 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful Message-ID: <041920050458.15622.42648FF7000B121500003D062206999735089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> again, sorry to keep making new threads, but this will continue till i fix my whole setup tomorrow. i started a new page for the discussion with a proposed hierarchy thats also in this email... https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ProposedHierarchy here's how i'm think of this... this includes some of ari's categories. how to do stuff... play multimedia movies music share files print graphics install programs that don't ship with ubuntu how is this? topics to add? think this is way off? anything? if we do this, won't it involve a total reorganization of the site? its a bit more than just adding a page to the wiki, it would involve getting rid of a bunch too? > Anyone is free to start this FAQ-jihad anyway with the wiki, that's > what it's for. Just create a page that you think would suit the wiki, > give it your best shot, and we'll discuss about it as a group, post > comments on the wiki page, in the chatroom or in this list. As far as > docbook development is concerned, documents get frozen after every > release so the wiki should evolve as needed when our docbook pages do > not help. At the moment, after Hoary release, we're starting anew for > Breezy and everyone is welcome to plunge it with their ideas. We're > thinking out of the box this time with regards to this and have > considered a lot of ideas we've seen from this list, the forums, and > our recent irc meetings. > > Note to docbook development: it should post relevant links to the wiki > > Note to wiki page development: it should be version controlled as well. > > -- > Jerome S. Gotangco > GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu > IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 19 05:22:44 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:22:44 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> On Tue, Apr 19, 2005, Matthew East wrote: > I would like to renew my plea, slightly desperate now, for people to > have a look at the following page, where some ideas have been developed > on this question, and to add comments!!!! > > http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure OK, some thoughts: - Should "how to use this wiki?" be at the very top? I think we can assume that users are familiar with websites, and from a new reader's point of view, the wiki is a big website. What was intended to be put in "how to use this wiki?" - Is "Documentation" a meaningful name? How about "Using Ubuntu" instead? - I agree with Matthew Thomas that a task based breakdown is nicer than a "FAQ" section. - Development Documentation should be moved to a "Contributing to Ubuntu" or "Ubuntu Developers" section. I think this is another example where dividing things into Documentation/Other stuff is not very useful: development docs have a completely different reader base from installation docs. - Why does Hardware have its own top level section? Just off the top of my head, a sketch of an alternative proposal. I'll whack it on a wiki page this evening: - Using Ubuntu - Installing Ubuntu on your system - Getting started [the links at this level are the top 5 most viewed pages in this category, I just give five examples here] - Editing documents - Connecting to the Internet - Reading email - Playing music - Taking over the world - "more" [should this be an explicit link to demonstrate that the five aren't all we have?] - Troubleshooting [section with all of the "getting my weirdo soundcard working" howtos] - Getting help [links to a page describing all the user IRC channels, mailing lists etc.] - Ubuntu for system administrators - Ubuntu community - Ubuntu philosophy [maybe] - Contributing to Ubuntu [an overview of how to contribute] - Release development - Documentation - LoCo teams - About this site [maybe: describes the wiki nature and acknowledges contributors] My sketch above is intended to give as many readers as possible an instant place to click. It's devoted a fair bit of room to new users as they're likely to be the ones who have the most difficulty deciding where to navigate to, but I hope that all other wiki users have at least one obvious entry point in that list. -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 19 05:27:02 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:27:02 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <20050419052702.GD5701@home.puzzling.org> On Tue, Apr 19, 2005, Mary Gardiner wrote: > - LoCo teams Actually, a note on this: this is Ubuntu jargon. It seems like a good idea to avoid this kind of thing on the very front page. The page itself can be called LoCoTeams, but the clickable link text would be better off being something like "Making Ubuntu fit your local community (LoCo teams)" or something. -Mary From sean at inwords.co.za Tue Apr 19 05:34:47 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:34:47 +0200 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <041920050458.15622.42648FF7000B121500003D062206999735089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> References: <041920050458.15622.42648FF7000B121500003D062206999735089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200504190734.50843.sean@inwords.co.za> On Tuesday 19 April 2005 06:58, whorush at comcast.net wrote: > i started a new page for the discussion with a proposed hierarchy thats > also in this email... This is entirely possible with a combination of structure of FAQ. Take a look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/faqguide/ We can nest structures by sects and have smaller qanda sets? -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From janc13 at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 06:10:45 2005 From: janc13 at gmail.com (JanC) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:10:45 +0200 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > - Development Documentation should be moved to a "Contributing to > Ubuntu" or "Ubuntu Developers" section. I think this is another > example where dividing things into Documentation/Other stuff is not > very useful: development docs have a completely different reader base > from installation docs. IMHO development could even be moved to a separate website and/or wiki. Put a link on the frontpage of the Ubuntu site & (candidate) developers will / should find it--they aren't clueless by default... > - Why does Hardware have its own top level section? Maybe because hardware support is the #1 question I get when promoting Ubuntu to anybody except computer illiterates...? -- JanC From george.deka at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 06:21:13 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:21:13 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> Fine to have a structure like this, but honestly if we try fill it we wont meet breezy. Not unless we have more bloody (new and old - most of the founding members have left because of all of this political discussion) -- George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.deka at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 06:21:50 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:21:50 +1000 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <72003cb7050418231818d6a654@mail.gmail.com> References: <041920050458.15622.42648FF7000B121500003D062206999735089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <200504190734.50843.sean@inwords.co.za> <72003cb7050418231818d6a654@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <72003cb70504182321b2a0bb@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > > On Tuesday 19 April 2005 06:58, whorush at comcast.net wrote: > > i started a new page for the discussion with a proposed hierarchy thats > > also in this email... > > This is entirely possible with a combination of structure of FAQ. Take a > look > at http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/faqguide/ > > We can nest structures by sects and have smaller qanda sets? I really think that we need to have the FAQ guide going for breezy ? is FAQ quide up to date, or is it the Warty stuff I dont know about most of you, but i dont like the idea of ubuntuguide.orgplus i think some of the info is a bit dodgy. Does anyone have any ideas for a new name, i dont like FAQ guide, and i dont think users will get it. Maybe something like "Using Ubuntu - Advanced" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 19 06:49:20 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:49:20 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> On Tue, Apr 19, 2005, George Deka wrote: > Fine to have a structure like this, but honestly if we try fill it we wont > meet breezy. This is a wiki structure though. It doesn't have a freeze date, and you can make changes one page at a time. Further, material for many of the pages already exists, it's just a question of rearranging the links to them. > Not unless we have more bloody (new and old - most of the founding members > have left because of all of this political discussion) This I'm not getting into, not having started any of it. Matthew East made an explicit call for comment, I replied with comments. -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 19 06:51:43 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:51:43 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050419065143.GF5701@home.puzzling.org> On Tue, Apr 19, 2005, JanC wrote: > On 4/19/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > - Why does Hardware have its own top level section? > > Maybe because hardware support is the #1 question I get when promoting > Ubuntu to anybody except computer illiterates...? Sure, in that case it appears on the front page. But that's not an argument for having it at the *first level* of the list hierachy as an entirely separate idea from "Documentation" or "Using Ubuntu". A possibility is having a structure like this: - Considering using Ubuntu? - What are the advantages of Ubuntu? - Migrating to Ubuntu - Ubuntu's hardware support -Mary From ubuntu at trickie.org Tue Apr 19 10:17:38 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:17:38 +1000 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4264DAC2.9090308@trickie.org> Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: > Peter Shillan dedi ki: > > >>I was wondering if anyone thought it would be worthwhile providing a >>version of the ubuntuguide page that is tailored for Kubuntu. This >>would be pretty valuable to people who want to be KDE only and not >>install GNOME apps. > > > I've been evaluating the possibility of something like this, possibly > coupled with some automation scripts. I'm currently in the preparation > phase[1] but I can't give any words about how far I'll be able to go, for > the time being. Hey there! You should maybe have a chat with the docteam (i cc'd ubuntu-doc)! One priority for the next release is to have up to date gnome AND kde documentation. > > BTW I'm also looking for a host to use as a playground for such activities > (web space, download space, forums, deb archive space, maybe CVS...). > There's wiki at ubutulinux.org, and forum facility at ubuntuforums.org, > but I'm used to use wiki only for patchworks, various services are > distributed among sites, and some don't even exist. Any better ideas than > sourceforge? One thing I'll miss at sourceforge is that I can't have a > package archive[2] space there, AFAIK. > We have some infrastructure to use including SVN, preview web space etc. > [1] Hunting for amd64 version of nvu, collecting material like ubuntuguide, > ubuntu-geek script, backports, official Ubuntu docs, etc. > [2] Possibly for some nonexisting amd64 packages I'll have to compile > myself, such as nvu. > > Best regards Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 19 10:38:42 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:38:42 +0100 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <8e6ff2e3050418193750d440b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1113867153.6382.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <8e6ff2e3050418193750d440b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Cool, thanks. By the way, Rosetta looks good but I noticed the > AboutUbuntu and ReleaseNotes still show an empty translation for > Portuguese, even though they have been fully translated, checked in > with subversion, and included in hoary. > > Maybe we should upload the translated -pt.po files (about-ubuntu and > release-notes) into Rosetta for consistency? And specially given that > we will probably start using Rosetta for future modifications of these > documents. I don't think I have permissions to upload those .po files, > is there someone around to do it? That will be done today. For future reference, if you are a member of the relevant translation group, it is possible to upload translations in xx.po format (e.g. pt.po). However for today don't worry: Carlos is doing it. Thanks, Matt From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 19 10:49:15 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:49:15 +0100 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: Mary Gardiner writes: > On Tue, Apr 19, 2005, George Deka wrote: >> Fine to have a structure like this, but honestly if we try fill it we wont >> meet breezy. > > This is a wiki structure though. It doesn't have a freeze date, and you > can make changes one page at a time. Further, material for many of the > pages already exists, it's just a question of rearranging the links to > them. Yeah totally agree. It doesn't take long to structure the wiki, and it can go bit by bit. I was delighted to see the thoughts on this thread developing, however, nobody has edited the wiki page, or added thoughts to it. It is nice to be able to play with it, and I hope that some of the great ideas on this thread can be converted into that. I had also added a test FrontPage, parented underneath, for playing around. >> Not unless we have more bloody (new and old - most of the founding members >> have left because of all of this political discussion) > > This I'm not getting into, not having started any of it. Matthew East > made an explicit call for comment, I replied with comments. Yeah I have no idea what he's talking about, but it seems deliberately provocative. Matt From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 19 11:02:59 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:02:59 +1000 Subject: Documentation IRC meeting summary: April 17 Message-ID: <20050419110259.GA15779@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> I've put the summary up at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary4 . It's also attached. Please inform me of mistakes or misrepresentations ASAP. Also, if anyone knows daven's or Treenak's real names, pass them on :) The complete log of the meeting is available at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2005-04-17.html -------------- next part -------------- Minutes of the 4th documentation team meeting The agenda of the meeting can be found at DocumentationTeamMeeting20050417. The fourth documentation team meeting began at 1210 UTC, April 17 2005. IRC logs are available at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ ubuntu-meeting-2005-04-17.html Active participants: Nickname Full name Burgundavia Corey Burger mdke Matthew East mpt Matthew Thomas hypatia Mary Gardiner jsgotangco Jerome Gotangco trickie Nick Loeve froud Sean Wheller daven ?? Treenaks ?? Three topics were on the agenda: ? Better communication between DocumentationTeam and Development Team ? Integration of DocumentationTeam needs into release freeze dates. MattZimmerman has asked for: 1) a list of items that we should be aware of which affect documentation (artwork? translations? desktop behaviour?), and 2) a conservative estimate of the time it would take to adjust for a change in one of those areas ? Discussion of DocTeamWebPortal Communication The general concensus is that while it would be useful to have the development team notify the documentation team of changes to Ubuntu behaviour that requires documentation changes, the documentation team is reluctant to impose overhead on the development team. Further, the overhead of monitoring the development list and/or the automatic changes list would be a large task for the documentation team. Nick Loeve reminded us that he and several others are already following the development mailing list and that he had offered to try and monitor it for decisions relevant to the documentation. Sean argued that any notification of development changes should be both automatic, not requiring overhead from developers, and filtered, requiring the minimum overhead for documenters. He maintained that any additional overhead for the documentation team was unacceptable due to its size and that we should be working to reduce rather than increase time spent on admin tasks. Others expressed some doubt about whether it was possible to have an automatic notification process, and Matthew East said that "you can't automate communication." Two mechanisms were suggested to have the development team notify the documentation team of documentation relevant changes: posts to the mailing list and filing documentation bugs in Bugzilla. An alternative to filing separate bugs is to Cc the docteam on bugs that result in documentation relevant changes, but many development decisions do not happen in Bugzilla. Malone may be more suitable for this kind of tracking. Matthew East thought that the development team should only be responsible for this kind of communication if changes are made after the freeze. MattZimmerman may be best placed to decide what level of overhead documentation needs can impose on developers. Matthew Thomas suggested that the QA process for the documentation be improved, in particular that QA testers work through all the examples. The only consensus about increased or improved QA was that discussion should be moved to the mailing list. Freeze dates Documentation visible features Artwork and desktop behaviour were the major changes discussed. There was some discussion of minimising the need to integrate artwork changes into the screenshots by not including window decorations. Time needed to integrate changes Some people thought that it was difficult to specify a figure before knowing the Breezy release schedule, but of those who were prepared to guesstimate, the concensus was that one month is approximately the length of time needed to add or change descriptions of features and/or screenshots requiring a screenshot per language. Corey said that taking the screenshots is more time consuming than translation of text, but Matthew East said that the reverse was true. There was thus no clear consensus on which of the artwork or string freezes should come first. Matthew East volunteered to summarise the discussion for MattZimmerman. Web Portal The meeting quickly reviewed the requirements at DocTeamWebPortal. Sean said that Docbook Wiki had been hopeless but that Apache Lenya was 90% there. He said that the only thing needed was development time to extend the editors for structured authoring. Noone was able to estimate the development time needed. Corey said that MarkShuttleworth had not given any specific limits on the amount of development he was prepared to commit and that therefore the development should be proposed and Canonical could take it from there. Mary reminded Corey of her message re JeffWaugh (if someone mails Jeff a proposal, he can advise how best to push it into the appropriate Canonical channels). Corey wanted Sean to follow up with Jeff because Sean has done the research into possible portals. ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? 2005 Canonical Ltd. Ubuntu and Canonical are trademarks of Canonical Ltd. From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 19 16:24:10 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:24:10 +0100 Subject: Ubuntu Guide Message-ID: Hello there, I work in the Ubuntu Documentation Team, and I was looking through your site (http://www.ubuntuguide.org) recently. I am slightly concerned that some of the content is misleading and I wanted to bring it to your attention: The first thing that really concerns me is that all users are instructed to add the backport repositories and the marillat repositories (stable, unstable AND testing), regardless of the programs which they need to install. As you may know, this causes several conflicts between packages which appear in both repositories (for example mplayer, which appears in several marillat repositories as well as ubuntu universe). I have encountered several cases on irc recently where this has caused users systems to break. A further thing that I noticed (I did not read the whole guide) was that you advise users to disactivate initscripts in a way which violates debian policy and can cause problems if users wish to use a proper method of altering their initscript services. For further information please see this document: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-opersys.html#s-sysvinit I hope that you will be able to take these comments into account and amend the guide accordingly!! Something that struck me is that if the guide could be brought into the context of the Ubuntu Documentation Team, better quality control of the document would ensue, and from our point of view, we would be able to improve the quality of the local documentation supplied with the Ubuntu system. What are your thoughts? I look forward to your reply! warm regards, Matthew. From matthew.east at breathe.com Tue Apr 19 17:31:34 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:31:34 +0100 Subject: Last Minute Changes Message-ID: Hi Matt/Docteam, Pursuant to the discussion we had on this list and at the recent Technical Meeting about dealing with last minute changes before release which affect documentation, we had a meeting recently to discuss the questions of docteam/develteam coordination and Freeze dates. As your requested I'm therefore emailing you with our conclusions. We felt that a month would give us a reasonable chance to incorporate any late changes into the documentation, taking into account the necessity for translation as well. The full summary of the meeting can be found here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary4 We would be happy if you would represent our team at the relevant times at UDU, as we discussed. If you need anymore information, please don't hesitate to let us know. Thanks, Matt From george.deka at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 03:20:19 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:20:19 +1000 Subject: Maybe FAQs aren't very useful In-Reply-To: <041920051609.5382.42652D2C000B3D94000015062205886442089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> References: <041920051609.5382.42652D2C000B3D94000015062205886442089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> Message-ID: <72003cb70504192020451f5843@mail.gmail.com> your email was off-list. On 4/20/05, whorush at comcast.net wrote: > > george, i'm a bit lost on this email. > > breezy? > > then in this email you say... > > Fine to have a structure like this, but honestly if we try fill it we wont > meet breezy. > Not unless we have more bloody (new and old - most of the founding members > have left because of all of this political discussion) > > bloody and breezy? are these new documentatoin releases? i guess this is > some ubuntu lingo? political discussion? What i meant was blood, breezy is the new development release of ubuntu. why don't you like about ubuntuguide? i'm not defending it, i barely know > it, why is it dodgy? i like the structure and the organization, we dont have > to make anything like it or use it in anyway. my point is just that its 110% > more organized than this site. Some of the information of there is not of great quality, eg install limewire when there is a perfect open source client out there - gift i started a wiki page for proposed hierarchies for the documentation. give > it a look, the stuff i have there is pathetic, but its just an idea of how > i'm thinking. > > https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ProposedHierarchy > > be excellent to eachother, brad Thats fine, but can we fill it all in, by the time breezy realeases -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From george.deka at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 03:24:54 2005 From: george.deka at gmail.com (George Deka) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:24:54 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/05, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > > Mary Gardiner writes: > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2005, George Deka wrote: > >> Fine to have a structure like this, but honestly if we try fill it we > wont > >> meet breezy. > > > > This is a wiki structure though. It doesn't have a freeze date, and you > > can make changes one page at a time. Further, material for many of the > > pages already exists, it's just a question of rearranging the links to > > them. > > Yeah totally agree. It doesn't take long to structure the wiki, and it can > go bit by bit. We need all the documentation in one place or at least replicated, we cant have some doc's on the wiki some in the plone doc section and some in yelp. It has allways been an issue. I was delighted to see the thoughts on this thread developing, however, > nobody has edited the wiki page, or added thoughts to it. It is nice to be > able to play with it, and I hope that some of the great ideas on this > thread > can be converted into that. I had also added a test FrontPage, parented > underneath, for playing around. > > >> Not unless we have more bloody (new and old - most of the founding > members > >> have left because of all of this political discussion) > > > > This I'm not getting into, not having started any of it. Matthew East > > made an explicit call for comment, I replied with comments. > > Yeah I have no idea what he's talking about, but it seems deliberately > provocative. Miss spelling there - what i meant was more blood, more people to write. We need full docs not just half done stuff, i dont know if anyone agrees, think i better get on irc Matt > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > -- Get Firefox! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Wed Apr 20 03:48:17 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:48:17 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> On Wed, Apr 20, 2005, George Deka wrote: > We need all the documentation in one place or at least replicated, we > cant have some doc's on the wiki some in the plone doc section and > some in yelp. It has allways been an issue. Yeah, that's the Web Portal discussion. However, even if this is an eventual aim, I don't think we should treat the wiki now as if that's already in place and therefore start imposing all kinds of freezes on the wiki. If nothing else, freezes and freeze policy are a barrier to entry. If Canonical/Ubuntu wanted all docs to be subject to such a barrier, they wouldn't have a publicly editable wiki. Publicly editable wikis do that kind of thing with difficulty or not at all. Therefore, I think that we should move ahead with structure changes to the wiki and not worry at this stage about timing them around release cycles. That said, I think the structure change is doable in that time, since there is presently no need to timetable wiki changes around i18n needs. -Mary From whorush at comcast.net Wed Apr 20 04:08:19 2005 From: whorush at comcast.net (Bradley Coleman) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 00:08:19 -0400 Subject: java docs are scary In-Reply-To: <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <1113970099.1287.5058.camel@localhost.localdomain> can someone who knows something have a look at these? http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Java From robitaille at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 04:54:24 2005 From: robitaille at gmail.com (Daniel Robitaille) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:54:24 -0700 Subject: java docs are scary In-Reply-To: <1113970099.1287.5058.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> <1113970099.1287.5058.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113972864.10095.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-20-04 at 00:08 -0400, Bradley Coleman wrote: > can someone who knows something have a look at these? > > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Java > For some mysterious reason any time someone proposes on the mailing list a way of installing Java, a couple more people reply with different ways they feel is better. Do that for a few months and you end up with that wiki page, with cut and pasted additions added left and right. It seems even one of my old mailing list message from ubuntu-user made it directly into the wiki (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IBMJava). Of course my method is the best :) Yeah, it should probably be rewritten; Java questions keeps coming back on a regular basis from new users. Or wait a few months and maybe we'll finally have a true open-source approach to Java that will render most of these pages obsolete. -- Daniel Robitaille GPG: http://robitaille.fastmail.fm/pubkey.asc (0x5C19F466) IM Jabber: robitaille at jabber.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From whorush at comcast.net Wed Apr 20 05:35:37 2005 From: whorush at comcast.net (Bradley Coleman) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 01:35:37 -0400 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> this is great! how do you guys work on stuff? i was thinking it would be cool if there were a special irc channel for our team that we could pop in and talk about this? i'm looking at IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure. a few things. whats the point of WIKI USER PROFILES? do you propose to organize things by user type? i could be wrong, but that sounds kind of FAQish to me. i can picture large hard to search pages. this philosophy assumes that people will sit down and read the whole thing from start to finish. this may be, but is it in the spirt of a task oriented hierarchy? then again, i have no idea what the intent of this is. that being said, i don't think there's anything wrong with a few of those, in fact i can see how they would be very useful so long as there are only a very small number of them. i like how to use the wiki at the top. if its at the bottom, people might never figure out how to use it. we should also have another link about guidelines for editing. namely, use the structure we make. also perhaps guidelines can be created that would prevent what happened to the java page from happening to any more. or do you guys think that would be against the spirit of the wiki? ==== this a repeat from part of an email i sent yesterday ... the Documentation heading, what does that mean? isn't this all documentation? isn't anything that would be under Hardware documentation also? it would help if you put in there what was supposed to go in these categories. just a general idea. FAQ. sorry, just joined the jihad. Installation Documentation. this is installing the OS right? Desktop Documentation, what would go in there? that seems incredibly general. System Documentation, again, super general. On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 13:48 +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > Yeah, that's the Web Portal discussion. However, even if this is an > eventual aim, I don't think we should treat the wiki now as if that's From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 20 05:30:21 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:30:21 +0200 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504200730.29656.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 07:35, Bradley Coleman wrote: > cool if there > were a special irc channel for our team that we could pop in and talk > about this Hello Bradley, For information about the docteam please start here http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From corey.burger at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 05:52:13 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:52:13 -0700 Subject: Documentation IRC meeting summary: April 17 In-Reply-To: <20050419110259.GA15779@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050419110259.GA15779@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <348bd6da05041922523d1abc1d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > I've put the summary up at > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary4 . It's > also attached. Please inform me of mistakes or misrepresentations ASAP. > Also, if anyone knows daven's or Treenak's real names, pass them on :) > > The complete log of the meeting is available at > http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2005-04-17.html > > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > > Mary, thanks for the irc log and summary. Corey > > From mpt at myrealbox.com Wed Apr 20 01:38:13 2005 From: mpt at myrealbox.com (Matthew Thomas) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:38:13 +1200 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <1113867153.6382.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1113867153.6382.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4265B285.9090802@myrealbox.com> Matthew East wrote: >... > I know Rosetta is not very easy to navigate!! >... Sorry about that. I'm working on making it easier, but it's a big job. -- Matthew Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From ar018 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 20 06:47:02 2005 From: ar018 at yahoo.com (Abdullah Ramazanoglu) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:47:02 +0300 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version References: <4264DAC2.9090308@trickie.org> Message-ID: Nick Loeve dedi ki: --8<-- > You should maybe have a chat with the docteam (i cc'd ubuntu-doc)! One > priority for the next release is to have up to date gnome AND kde > documentation. That's good news! :) Thanks for the tip. I've sent a mail to Sean. BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity for a suggestion. I barely know how docteam works (from what I skimmed on the wiki) so this has possibly been considered already and dismissed as being lame. Anyway, here's my suggestion FWIW: I think it might be better to do a separation between "documenting experts" and "content providers", just like a publisher and an author. This could boost material input considerably. An author usually just wants to document his knowledge/experience etc. in some format most convenient to him. IMHO his focus should be on what he is good at, and he shouldn't be burdened with peripheral requirements and overheads (docteam procedures, rules, docbook/xml et.al. learning curve, etc). If a simple framework could be established so that anyone can submit documents in -say- text, html, or sxw/oot format (observing a few simple rules required by the framework), whichever suits him, which is then processed by the docteam and imported into docbook, then such a setup could provide an excellent fertile ground for a lot of contribution. In that case, the core doc-team probably no more provides content but just does engineering and publishing (of documents), organizing (of content providers), and tracking (of both). Isn't it more or less what publishers do? Another analogy would be debian packagers (docteam) and upstream developers (content providers). Just my 2 kurush. Best regards -- Abdullah Ramazanoglu aramazan ?T myrealbox D0T c?m From jgotangco at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 10:01:45 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:01:45 +0800 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version In-Reply-To: References: <4264DAC2.9090308@trickie.org> Message-ID: > BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity for a suggestion. I barely know how > docteam works (from what I skimmed on the wiki) so this has possibly been > considered already and dismissed as being lame. Hi Abdullah, It's nice to see your enthusiasm to help out with the Kubuntu documentation. It's a nice time to dive in since everything is still in a state of flux. At the moment, I am hacking around the Kubuntu Kwick Guide and the About Kubuntu pages from svn. I am not that much of a technical documentation expert myself but I am coping up with the tech blabber/jargon. My current docbook tags are quite simple but will be polished later after finishing the whole guide. Anyone can check it out from svn trunk; its just a skeletal framework, but it does show the essence of the quick guide/about kubuntu structure. I will post on the wiki my version of the tree structure of the Kwick Guide and see if you think it may need more revisions. Everyone is welcome to do that as well. That way, we can start collaboration between content authors and technical authors. I'd like to see how this little experiment would go. I will send the link later in this email thread. I cannot guarantee any changes on some Kubuntu documents for this weekend since I am preparing my stuff for the upcoming Ubuntu Down Under meeting April 25-30. Regards, Jerome PS. You may have missed it on this list, but Matthew East sent an email to the author of ubuntuguide (and CC'd this list) for some possible corrections to the site. .-- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From jgotangco at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 10:01:45 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:01:45 +0800 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version In-Reply-To: References: <4264DAC2.9090308@trickie.org> Message-ID: > BTW, I'd like to take this opportunity for a suggestion. I barely know how > docteam works (from what I skimmed on the wiki) so this has possibly been > considered already and dismissed as being lame. Hi Abdullah, It's nice to see your enthusiasm to help out with the Kubuntu documentation. It's a nice time to dive in since everything is still in a state of flux. At the moment, I am hacking around the Kubuntu Kwick Guide and the About Kubuntu pages from svn. I am not that much of a technical documentation expert myself but I am coping up with the tech blabber/jargon. My current docbook tags are quite simple but will be polished later after finishing the whole guide. Anyone can check it out from svn trunk; its just a skeletal framework, but it does show the essence of the quick guide/about kubuntu structure. I will post on the wiki my version of the tree structure of the Kwick Guide and see if you think it may need more revisions. Everyone is welcome to do that as well. That way, we can start collaboration between content authors and technical authors. I'd like to see how this little experiment would go. I will send the link later in this email thread. I cannot guarantee any changes on some Kubuntu documents for this weekend since I am preparing my stuff for the upcoming Ubuntu Down Under meeting April 25-30. Regards, Jerome PS. You may have missed it on this list, but Matthew East sent an email to the author of ubuntuguide (and CC'd this list) for some possible corrections to the site. .-- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 20 10:22:19 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:22:19 +0100 Subject: quickguide-pt In-Reply-To: <4265B285.9090802@myrealbox.com> References: <8e6ff2e305041807367e868456@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041808242a824850@mail.gmail.com> <8e6ff2e305041809553fc0fe40@mail.gmail.com> <1113866997.6382.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1113867153.6382.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4265B285.9090802@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: Matthew Thomas writes: > Matthew East wrote: >> ... >> I know Rosetta is not very easy to navigate!! >> ... > > Sorry about that. I'm working on making it easier, but it's a big job. Yeah I know! that wasn't a dig at the rosetta developers, who are doing a marvellous job. We appreciate the system immensely, and Carlos has also been great at helping the Docteam. M From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 20 10:38:07 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:38:07 +0100 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <041820050802.11264.426369B20008A4FC00002C002205889116089C9A9D010899@comcast.net> <348bd6da0504180128c3545f2@mail.gmail.com> <42645312.4070001@myrealbox.com> <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Hi Bradley Before replying to the specifics of your message, I wanted to say: I appreciate your contributions to this argument and I think they are pretty spot on. However, please please please add your views to the wiki page. You will see that under the IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure page there is also a DocTeamTestingNewFrontPage and a SimpleFrontPage: take a look at them and comment. Bradley Coleman writes: > i'm looking at IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure. a few things. whats the > point of WIKI USER PROFILES? do you propose to organize things by user > type? i could be wrong, but that sounds kind of FAQish to me. i can No we don't propose to organise thing by user profiles: that list is simply to help US to focus on the purposes that the structure is trying to address. > picture large hard to search pages. this philosophy assumes that people > will sit down and read the whole thing from start to finish. this may > be, but is it in the spirt of a task oriented hierarchy? then again, i > have no idea what the intent of this is. No I'm not sure I follow this entirely, but there is no intention to make large hard to search pages. In fact, there is no intention to edit any pages at all, the discussion is simple how to structure the material we have and that will continue to be added by our users. > i like how to use the wiki at the top. if its at the bottom, people > might never figure out how to use it. > > we should also have another link about guidelines for editing. namely, > use the structure we make. The link to "how to use the wiki" (as you will see if you take a look at the draft FrontPage I posted above) really intends to have all this information linked to it. Take a look at DocTeamTestingWikiHome. > also perhaps guidelines can be created that > would prevent what happened to the java page from happening to any more. > or do you guys think that would be against the spirit of the wiki? Everyone is free to edit the wiki pages, if you believe something is wrong, then you should amend it, comment on it, etc. Try to avoid deleting pages though. Remember that where there are many varying points of view, the truth is arrived at through debate. > the Documentation heading, what does that mean? isn't this all > documentation? isn't anything that would be under Hardware > documentation also? What is meant by that heading was User Documentation. I have tried to edit the testing pages taking this into account. Don't forget that the wiki is not just used for documentation, in fact there are currently 1265 pages on the wiki, many of which are used by developers and other teams (such as ourselves) to track ideas and organise projects. It is important for any wiki FrontPage to separate out User Documentation from other documents such as those. If you believe it does not do this clearly, please add your comments to the testing pages: it may just be a question of amending terminology. > FAQ. sorry, just joined the jihad. My personal view on this the debate currently going on is about terminology: the people who dislike Frequently Answered Questions pages tend to advocate nonetheless a structure based around "Common Problems". To some extent therefore IMO this is a semantic debate, at least in part. The other part may be simply ensuring that documents are not too long. I have always preferred wiki pages to deal with one issue at a time. > Installation Documentation. this is installing the OS right? Yes. I agree that this can/should be made clearer. > Desktop Documentation, what would go in there? that seems incredibly > general. > > System Documentation, again, super general. I have tried to set out categories of documentation: To be honest I haven't thought about it immensely, it is difficult to categorise ALL the user documentation on the wiki (if you want to know how much there is, check out http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UserDocumentation). I took the categories from the gentoo documentation, and then hoped that people would comment, such as yourself. So again, please add your thoughts on the page! thanks again for your thoughts! Matt From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Wed Apr 20 11:06:43 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:06:43 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: References: <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050420110643.GD8444@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Wed, Apr 20, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > My personal view on this the debate currently going on is about > terminology: the people who dislike Frequently Answered Questions pages > tend to advocate nonetheless a structure based around "Common Problems". To > some extent therefore IMO this is a semantic debate, at least in part. It's a little more than that for me. The idea is reader's perspective versus writer's perspective. As a reader looking to play XYZ music files using Ubuntu, I don't give a damn whether not being able to play them is a "common problem" or "frequently asked question." All I care about is an answer to the question. Therefore, I should *not* go to the front page of any documentation tree and be asked to decide between "Common Problems" and "Other hardcore stuff" at the top level. Asking me to choose between "I want to play music", "I want to watch a video" and "I want to write an email" as a first choice is more sensible: it's far more obvious to me the reader which choice I make. Now, from a writer's point of view, we do care about what are common problems and what are one-off problems with some weirdo XYZ music format from the dark ages because one of the ways we prioritise our writing time and make our docs useful to the most number of people is by answering the common questions. And one side effect of this "useful to the most people thing" is making sure that common problems are easy to find answers to. We can do that by, for example, reducing the number of clicks required to get to popular docs, or by ordering our menu pages based partly on having common problems near the top. But the difference is we make the common problem documentation easy to get to without ever requiring the user to ask themself "is this a common problem?" Instead, they ask themselves "is this a music problem?", go to the relevant page, and *just happen* to find their problem up the top because it's common. They go through the entire process without ever knowing that it's common, just that the documentation for it was remarkable easy to find. -Mary From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 20 11:17:19 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:17:19 +0100 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: <20050420110643.GD8444@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420110643.GD8444@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: Mary Gardiner writes: > On Wed, Apr 20, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: >> My personal view on this the debate currently going on is about >> terminology: the people who dislike Frequently Answered Questions pages >> tend to advocate nonetheless a structure based around "Common Problems". To >> some extent therefore IMO this is a semantic debate, at least in part. > > It's a little more than that for me. The idea is reader's perspective > versus writer's perspective. > > As a reader looking to play XYZ music files using Ubuntu, I don't give a > damn whether not being able to play them is a "common problem" or > "frequently asked question." All I care about is an answer to the > question. Therefore, I should *not* go to the front page of any > documentation tree and be asked to decide between "Common Problems" and > "Other hardcore stuff" at the top level. Asking me to choose between "I > want to play music", "I want to watch a video" and "I want to write an > email" as a first choice is more sensible: it's far more obvious to me > the reader which choice I make. I totally agree that a user should be be asked to discover what Common Problems are! That is absurd naturally. The point I'm trying to get at is that the choice that we have to make, in determining what choices should be offered to a user at a top level (I want to watch a video/write an email etc) depends on us determining what frequently encountered problems are. I get the feeling that we are not in disagreement on this at all. I think this is what you mean when you refer to a "writer's point of view". > And one side effect of this "useful to the most people thing" is making > sure that common problems are easy to find answers to. We can do that > by, for example, reducing the number of clicks required to get to > popular docs, or by ordering our menu pages based partly on having > common problems near the top. But the difference is we make the common > problem documentation easy to get to without ever requiring the user to > ask themself "is this a common problem?" Instead, they ask themselves > "is this a music problem?", go to the relevant page, and *just happen* > to find their problem up the top because it's common. They go through > the entire process without ever knowing that it's common, just that the > documentation for it was remarkable easy to find. Yeah this confirms my suspicion that we're in full agreement. The key question for me is getting categories clear enough that users know where to click to answer their problems. Obviously reducing the number of clicks is nice too. Matt From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 20 11:21:35 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:21:35 +0100 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: References: <1113871556.7532.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050419052244.GC5701@home.puzzling.org> <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420110643.GD8444@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: > I totally agree that a user should be be asked to discover what Common > Problems are! That is absurd naturally. The point I'm trying to get at is ugghhhhnnn. s/a user should be/a user should NOT be Sorry, obviously not enough coffee. From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Wed Apr 20 12:06:03 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:06:03 +1000 Subject: FrontPage In-Reply-To: References: <984838bf05041823104dd2a6f0@mail.gmail.com> <72003cb705041823217d67a835@mail.gmail.com> <20050419064920.GE5701@home.puzzling.org> <72003cb7050419202430c680e7@mail.gmail.com> <20050420034817.GM9969@home.puzzling.org> <1113975337.1287.5094.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20050420110643.GD8444@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <20050420120603.GE8444@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Wed, Apr 20, 2005, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > I totally agree that a user should be be asked to discover what Common > Problems are! That is absurd naturally.The point I'm trying to get at > is that the choice that we have to make, in determining what choices > should be offered to a user at a top level (I want to watch a > video/write an email etc) depends on us determining what frequently > encountered problems are. I get the feeling that we are not in > disagreement on this at all. I think this is what you mean when you > refer to a "writer's point of view". I think we are in agreement. The anti-FAQ jihad seems to be a movement to drop the use of the term "FAQ" *and* synonyms like "common problems" when presenting choices to the user. They're useful categories for *us* to use in developing choices, they're not useful categories if passed on unfiltered to the reader. -Mary From corey.burger at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 12:43:39 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:43:39 -0700 Subject: Net-install Message-ID: <348bd6da050420054330dc7339@mail.gmail.com> It seems we are lacking documentation on this topic. I cannot find one in the wiki or svn. If there is one, can someone point me to it? If there isn't, consider this a plea to those who have used it to please right us a doc for it. I, at some later date, ask on ubuntu-devel as well. Corey From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 20 12:58:10 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:58:10 +0200 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version In-Reply-To: References: <4264DAC2.9090308@trickie.org> Message-ID: <200504201458.14158.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 08:47, Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: > I think it might be better to do a separation between "documenting experts" > and "content providers", just like a publisher and an author. This could > boost material input considerably. An author usually just wants to > document his knowledge/experience etc. in some format most convenient to > him. IMHO his focus should be on what he is good at, and he shouldn't be > burdened with peripheral requirements and overheads (docteam procedures, > rules, docbook/xml et.al. learning curve, etc). If a simple framework > could be established so that anyone can submit documents in -say- text, > html, or sxw/oot format (observing a few simple rules required by the > framework), whichever suits him, which is then processed by the docteam > and imported into docbook, then such a setup could provide an excellent > fertile ground for a lot of contribution. In that case, the core doc-team > probably no more provides content but just does engineering and publishing > (of documents), organizing (of content providers), and tracking (of both). > Isn't it more or less what publishers do? Another analogy would be debian > packagers (docteam) and upstream developers (content providers). Just my 2 > kurush. Abdullah, Thanks for you input. While I admit there is a barrier to entry for authors to contribute documentation, I would just like to address some of the points you would like to see. Before I do, just let me say that I am currently evaluating Apache Lenya to address the barriers you mentioned. You may want to take a look. http://lenya.apache.org In preparing documention there are a number of factors that need consideration, many of which actually should take precedence to to actual writing. My focus is on the technical infrastructure. To keep this short I will try do this in bullet format. 1. The format for storage should be presentation layer neutral. 2. The format should be programatically accessible. 3. Content should be easily reusable. 4. Content should be granularly manageable under a revision control system. 5. Format should lend itself it easy translation processes. 6. Authors should be able to collaborate on the same document simultaneously. 7. Format should lend itself to easy, system-wide update. 8. Format should lend itself to profiling, also called conditional texts. 9. Format should lend itself to consistenant structure. With Docbook we have all of the above and more. In addition Docbook is an OASIS standard and is the standard for documentation in all of our upstream partners. Because of this we have easy and standard interchange. Point-to-point explanations to the above. 1. From Docbook XML we are able to transform to a wide number of target, presentation layer formats; including: XML, XHTML, HTML, LATEX, PDF, HTML Help, JavaHelp, PostScript, Text, RTF and more. 2. Thanks to XML we can validate our documents and ensure they are well-formed. In turn this means we have a way to consistently access our file using other programming languages. 3. Standards such as Entities, XInclude and XPointer enable us to reuse parts of content with having to duplicate it. This dramatically cuts down on our maintenance cycle. 4. Because XML is text and not binary we can manage patches to our documents more easily using patches. With a single command I can update the sources of any number of books within the repository. I can even manage separate copies of the books and merge changes between them with ease. This is great for cases where we have documents for hoary and documents for breezy and documents for the next revision of the distro. 5. For the translation process we use the gettext system. The translators are hooked on po files and we have an easy way to give them what they want and manage this process across versions. In addition, since Docbook has generated texts like captions and labels, we can transform all books in the knowledge that the formatted output will be completely translated. We don't have to go back and change the title "Table of Contents," Docbook does it for us. 6. Because Docbook is XML, we have the ability to take advantage of the collaborative model provided by VCS systems such as Subversion, Bazaar and CVS. All authors can have a working copy of the docs and hack the same document without 'clobbering' each others work. 7. Thanks to mechanisms such as entities and XInclude and the ability for programatic access, we are able to implement strategies for modularity, reuse that dramatically improve our ability to update and maintain documents. For example, if we want to change the name of the distribution revision from warty to hoary we need only do this in one place and all document are updated. 8. Using XML and XSLT we are able to program the documents so that we can get two or more books from the same XML file. For example, I am currently writing an installation guide for ubuntu and kubuntu. For this I have a single file and have profiled the document so that I can output various formats for each distro. 9. The structure and markup language enforced by Docbook enables authors to forget about the formatting and focus on writing. We know that a valid and well formed document will always look the same. Tables, itemizedlists, numbered lists, images, etc. are all created in a consistant way. So Docbook has huge advantages for us. The problem is that people who want to write something need to have additional skills before they can start writing in Docbook. So we are looking at Lenya, but this system does not yet support structured authoring and we will been to either develop a structured editor for it or extend an existing editor. As an interim solution we enable people to write in wiki. This has its problems but is one way to enable people to contribute. However, this situation is less than optimal since it increases the barrier to all the benefits I have mentioned above. What I think people have to realize is that technologies are in various stages of development. While the XML recommendation and Docbook are stable, the technologies above them are not all FOSS and have not yet evolved to the point where they are able to significantly break down the barrier you mention. However, there are some good editor solutions out there and I suggest you take the time to investigate them. What you want is a structured editor that gives you a WYSIOO interface. OOo does give you think using a docbook template, but I am afraid that you will not easily be able to round trip your editing using this method. You may also try Morphon XML Editor or XMLmind. Personally, I would start with VI, Emacs and get to learn the code, then move to one of these methods if you feel it is helpful. If these tools seem to old for you, look at Kate or Gedit. Abdullah, we have helped a number of authors join the team and become productive with SVN and Docbook. These people have had an interest in learning and we understand that they do not know everything. Our approach is to mentor and support these people. As I say, we have been very successful in this respect and perhaps we can help you. The important message here, often not understood, is that the documentation sources and the process for development extends way beyond the initial first revision of a document and beyond just viewing it on a web site. In addition, I think that people need to appreciate that our documentation effort in SVN and Docbook is still very young, less than a year. Hope this helps. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 20 13:12:51 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:12:51 +0200 Subject: Net-install In-Reply-To: <348bd6da050420054330dc7339@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da050420054330dc7339@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504201512.52070.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 14:43, Corey Burger wrote: > It seems we are lacking documentation on this topic. I cannot find one > in the wiki or svn. If there is one, can someone point me to it? > > If there isn't, consider this a plea to those who have used it to > please right us a doc for it. > > I, at some later date, ask on ubuntu-devel as well. Hello Corey, Marc Herbert has released a copy of http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/win2linstall.html On behalf of the team I would like to that Marc for this most excellent contribution. Thanks Marc. To the ubuntu doc-team under the conditions of our documentation license. I was planning on adding this to the installation guide I am writing. Perhaps you would like to do it in my place. I had planned it as an addition chapter. As you know the guide is at present, a description of the basic installation. The installation guide is in https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/generic/instalguide What follows is confirmation to the list of Marc Herbert. On Friday 08 April 2005 23:26, you wrote: > Hi guys, > > You may be interested by this documentation I wrote: > > "Install GNU/Linux without any CD, floppy, USB-key, nor any other > removable media" > http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/win2linstall.html > > Feel free to abuse it and put some pieces of it on Ubuntu's Wiki > (which is really lacking such a doc IMHO, cause netbooting is way too > complicated), forward the link to ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com , > or whatever. > > Cheers, > > Marc. On Sat, 9 Apr 2005, Sean Wheller wrote: > Questions: > 1. Do you have a Docbook XML src of this document? Nope, it's reStructuredText (i.e. mostly ASCII). I find XML is overkill for such short (well, not so long :-) documents, and that good Docbook toolsets are not convenient enough yet. > 2. I understand that you are happy to release under dual license (CC-BY-SA 2.0 > and GFDL? Well, it's been a long time that I know I have to dig into this legal stuff... will do quickly and come back to you. Thanks a lot for you interest. Cheers, Marc. On Sat, 9 Apr 2005, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Friday 08 April 2005 23:26, Marc Herbert wrote: > > ?You may be interested by this documentation I wrote: > > > > "Install GNU/Linux without any CD, floppy, USB-key, nor any other > > removable media" > > http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/win2linstall.html > > > Questions: > 1. Do you have a Docbook XML src of this document? Since 5 minutes, mostly yes. There is a link to a generated docbook file a the bottom of the page. This is really amazing: I downloaded some experimental python translation tool, and it worked right away without crashing or dumping garbage. The most time was spent figuring out where to install it... incredible. I played a little bit with the docbook result and it seems docbook2whatever can get very decent things from it. I dunno what you are looking for exactly, hopefully you will find this useful. > 2. I understand that you are happy to release under dual license (CC-BY-SA 2.0 > and GFDL? Done (thanks for the hints). Cheers, Marc. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffschering at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 16:09:57 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:09:57 -0700 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version In-Reply-To: References: <4264DAC2.9090308@trickie.org> Message-ID: On 4/19/05, Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: > > I think it might be better to do a separation between "documenting experts" > and "content providers", just like a publisher and an author. This could > boost material input considerably. An author usually just wants to > document his knowledge/experience etc. in some format most convenient to > him. IMHO his focus should be on what he is good at, and he shouldn't be > burdened with peripheral requirements and overheads (docteam procedures, > rules, docbook/xml et.al. learning curve, etc). If a simple framework > could be established so that anyone can submit documents in -say- text, > html, or sxw/oot format (observing a few simple rules required by the > framework), whichever suits him, which is then processed by the docteam > and imported into docbook, then such a setup could provide an excellent > fertile ground for a lot of contribution. In that case, the core doc-team > probably no more provides content but just does engineering and publishing > (of documents), organizing (of content providers), and tracking (of both). > Isn't it more or less what publishers do? Another analogy would be debian > packagers (docteam) and upstream developers (content providers). Just my 2 > kurush. > I like this concept. It would be suitable for someone who has just one or two documents to contribute, but is either not interested in joining the docteam, or does not have the time. The idea that "the core doc-team probably no more provides content but just does engineering and publishing" is a bit extreme, but as the team grows there will probably be some specialization of skills split along those lines. I think in order for an author to make a one-time contribution, at the absolute minimum he or she should only need to allow the work to be released under the GFDL and CC licenses, and then just throw it over our wall (in whatever format) and ride off into the sunset. We'll convert it into DocBook ourselves. Hopefully, the author would want to stick around and help us out with that, but hey, it's not a perfect world. It would be a shame to refuse a contribution simply because it's not in DocBook! Jeff --- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 20 16:17:33 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:17:33 +0200 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504201817.37371.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 18:09, Jeff Schering wrote: > It would be a shame to refuse a contribution simply because it's not in > DocBook! Yes. We do not and will not refuse contributions in any format. Hell, even if it is a Microsoft Word document :-). However, as you say, this is OK for a once off contribution, but to keep doing it on an on going basis is just more overhead that I personally want, especially with large documents and especially before they are finished. Anyone who gives contributions in this way will be welcomed, but should also realize that all further revisions of the document must be updated in Docbook. Unless somebody is really prepared to track every character change by hand, but I doubt that. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 20 16:21:33 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:21:33 +0200 Subject: Documentation for the handicapped Message-ID: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> Hello team, I have been twisting with an experiment to create documentation for handicapped persons. I want to transform a Docbook document to braille. Does anyone have a braille reading device and know visually impaired person who can test this? -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robitaille at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 17:42:35 2005 From: robitaille at gmail.com (Daniel Robitaille) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:42:35 -0700 Subject: Documentation for the handicapped In-Reply-To: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: > I have been twisting with an experiment to create documentation for > handicapped persons. I want to transform a Docbook document to braille. Does > anyone have a braille reading device and know visually impaired person who > can test this? have you talked to any one on the Accessbility team? http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AccessibilityTeam I think it is Luke Yelavich from that group who is working on a Accessibility-derivitive of Hoary for vision-impaired users: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LukeYelavich They should be able to point you in the right direction to test this. From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 20 17:43:50 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:43:50 +0200 Subject: Documentation for the handicapped In-Reply-To: References: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504201943.54006.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 19:42, Daniel Robitaille wrote: > > I have been twisting with an experiment to create documentation for > > handicapped persons. I want to transform a Docbook document to braille. > > Does anyone have a braille reading device and know visually impaired > > person who can test this? > > have you talked to any one on the Accessbility team? > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AccessibilityTeam > > I think it is Luke Yelavich from that group who is working on a > Accessibility-derivitive of Hoary for vision-impaired users: > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LukeYelavich > > They should be able to point you in the right direction to test this. Hello Luke, I would like to link up with a vision-impaired person that has a braille device to test Ubuntu Linux documents transformed from Docbook XML to braille. Perhaps you can point me the best direction? This message was cc'd to the ubuntu-doc mailing list. If you are not subscribed I will forward messages on your behalf so that interested may linkup. Thanks, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ar018 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 20 18:16:21 2005 From: ar018 at yahoo.com (Abdullah Ramazanoglu) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:16:21 +0300 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version References: <4264DAC2.9090308@trickie.org> <200504201458.14158.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: Sean Wheller dedi ki: --8<-- > Abdullah, > > Thanks for you input. And thank you for your kind help, too, both in your mail reply and here. > While I admit there is a barrier to entry for authors to contribute > documentation, I would just like to address some of the points you would > like to see. Before I do, just let me say that I am currently evaluating > Apache Lenya to address the barriers you mentioned. You may want to take > a look. http://lenya.apache.org It looks very nice really. I think some means of porting automation between docbook and other formats might be equally helpful as well. As I have no idea on difficulties of porting, I might be way off base here. BTW, I would like to clarify a couple of points in my previous post. Firstly, although I'm not familiar yet with docbook details, I'm fully aware of its tactical importance and I have no questions at all wrt using doocbook as the base format. Secondly, looking at it again, my previous post really looks like a whining even to me. But I really didn't mean it that way. I was trying to address an issue in greater context, taking myself completely out of the picture. Honest. :) I was presuming that *if* porting procedures can be somewhat automated, and if well defined rules can be established to facilitate automated back and forth conversions, then it might be made into something more or less similar to deb packaging process. Further building on that presumption, I was imagining authorship and packaging might be separated into two independent, detached roles. Thus, a relatively very small documentation team might be able to herd a large number of authors, and more importantly, there would be large number of willing authors as they become able to write in whatever format they find convenient. Additionally, any random document out there found valuable for K/ubuntu could be easily adopted. Thus, all of a sudden vast documentation resources could become available. It was just a presumption, maybe wishful thinking, without a factual backing. In the future, as I learn more about docbook details, I hope I do more informed suggestions. :) As for me, I guess I need to do something first, before getting motivated into converting it into something better - docbook. Otherwise (in my case) spending too much time with non-essentials may absorb the initial momentum needed for nucleating the essential. Also I've several competing ideas. One of them is what I mentioned in my mail: Something along the lines of Ubuntuguide (maybe later on doing some scripting to automate some of the tasks in the doc). This is pure documenting work at the beginning. Another idea is doing the scripting as the main work, and preparing documentation as centered around the script: As each functionality goes into the script, related context sensitive help and program manual section gets written. In this case I've no idea how I can stick to a consistent document structure. Maybe it's better to start out with document skeleton preparation as in the former case, fill the empty slots in the doc via the latter method, and after the script is finished, fill the remaining empty slots in the doc again as in the former case. I hope I'll decide before Breezy! :) --8<-- > Abdullah, we have helped a number of authors join the team and become > productive with SVN and Docbook. These people have had an interest in > learning and we understand that they do not know everything. Our approach > is to mentor and support these people. As I say, we have been very > successful in this respect and perhaps we can help you. Are there resources (docs, tools, anything) for porting between docbook and other formats? Or does it need to be done manually? > The important message here, often not understood, is that the > documentation sources and the process for development extends way beyond > the initial first revision of a document and beyond just viewing it on a > web site. In addition, I think that people need to appreciate that our > documentation effort in SVN and Docbook is still very young, less than a > year. I agree. Yet I have a feeling that there might be two approaches to documentation. One is author=publisher (I liken it to software developer=packager), the other is author=author and publisher=publisher (as in printed publishing and deb packaging). I still can't get rid of the hopes that if only these two roles could be separated in a well defined procedural way, then we could have more docs than we cared for. > Hope this helps. Definitely. Thank you very much! Best regards :) -- Abdullah Ramazanoglu aramazan ?T myrealbox D0T c?m From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 20 18:31:29 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:31:29 +0200 Subject: ? to Docbook [was Re: kubuntu ubuntuguide version] In-Reply-To: References: <200504201458.14158.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504202031.32327.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 20:16, Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: > It looks very nice really. I think some means of porting automation between > docbook and other formats might be equally helpful as well. As I have no > idea on difficulties of porting, I might be way off base here. Start here and do take a read on the subject: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertTroffToDocbook http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertWikiToDocbook http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WritingDocbookWithOpenOffice The last one, I tried it and found I did not like. Perhaps you will, then please document it. Thanks -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vbd at linuxsource.de Wed Apr 20 19:39:19 2005 From: vbd at linuxsource.de (Volker Bernhard Duetsch) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:39:19 +0200 Subject: kubuntu ubuntuguide version Message-ID: <763185065.20050420213919@linuxsource.de> Hello, could be a possible low-level-rule-set for authors: http://www.xmlmind.com/aptconvert.html Just as idea. regards Volker -- WWW: http://www.linuxsource.de eMail: vbd at linuxsource.de oder volker at duetsch.info From matthew.east at breathe.com Wed Apr 20 20:04:55 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:04:55 +0100 Subject: Translation of Docteam Documents Through Rosetta Message-ID: I have finally had a chance to document the discussion that myself and Sean had with Carlos recently about translating our documentation through Rosetta. this is essentially a testing initiative both from the point of view of whether Rosetta can properly handle our particular mode of documentation, and also from the point of view of whether we can figure out a way of handling the po files correctly. I personally am very excited about using Rosetta to translate our documents, and also of the possibility of getting some more translated documentation into Hoary as updates. Please see this page: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n NOTE TO TRANSLATORS: please remember to maintain all &strings and : do not translate them into your own language. Thanks very much folks, and happy translating, Matt From jeffschering at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 20:17:52 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:17:52 -0700 Subject: Ubuntu Documentation Style Guide Message-ID: Greetings. I am creating a documentation style guide for the Ubuntu docteam. It would have been nice to just say "use the GNOME styleguide," but although the GNOME style guide is great, it's not Ubuntu. The Ubuntu documentation team needs its own style guide because Ubuntu is unique. Ubuntu is Linux + GNU + Debian + (GNOME and KDE) + the Ubuntu philosophy. No current style guide covers the entire spectrum of Ubuntu components. I have created a plan for the style guide and placed it in the repository in the styleguide folder. The plan itself is called styleguide-plan.xml. I have also created the wiki page StyleGuidePlan, which is styleguide-plan.xml in wiki html format. The content is identical, it's just the format that's different. I made the StyleGuidePlan in html markup simply because it was very easy to convert styleguide-plan.xml to html using xsltproc. If anyone is seriously disappointed that it is not in Moin, then go ahead and convert it. In any case, I want any issues concerning the plan to be raised on a wiki page I have created specially for that: StyleGuideDiscussion. I would like most (if not all) discussion to take place on that page. It needs to be in one place where all can see and contribute. The document plan is open to revision until May 31. The process I want to follow is this: 1. changes are discussed on StyleGuideDiscussion 2. those participating decide which changes to incorporate 3. styleguide-plan.xml is updated in the repos 4. a new html is generated and posted back to the StyleGuidePlan wiki page 5. repeat as needed until May 31 Once the plan is set, a similar process will be used for the style guide itself, the only difference being that I don't anticipate having the style guide on the wiki; only in the repos, but if someone wants to periodically copy the style-guide.xml to the wiki, then go for it. In any case, the style-guide.xml file probably won't appear in the repos until the end of May, around the same time the plan is finalized. Here is the preliminary section layout of the style guide, taken directly from the Document Plan for the Ubuntu Documentation Style Guide: 1. Preface 1. List of authors 2. Legal items (copyright, license, history) 2. Introduction 1. The Need for an Ubuntu Documentation Style Guide 2. Style Guide Precedence 3. Document Structure 4. Grammar, Punctuation, Spelling, Style, and Word Usage 5. DocBook Style 6. Tricky Words 7. Writing for an International Audience 8. Terminology 1. General 2. GUI Terms 3. User Actions 9. Stylesheet 10. Reference Materials According to the plan, the style guide will be released on August 1, 2005. This will give editors approximately two months before Breezy Badger is released to review the documentation and bring it into conformance with the style guide. Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From themuso at themuso.com Wed Apr 20 22:58:51 2005 From: themuso at themuso.com (Luke Yelavich) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:58:51 +1000 Subject: Documentation for the handicapped In-Reply-To: <200504201943.54006.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> <200504201943.54006.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <20050420225851.GA23223@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> Hi Sean On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 03:43:50AM EST, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Wednesday 20 April 2005 19:42, Daniel Robitaille wrote: > > > I have been twisting with an experiment to create documentation for > > > handicapped persons. I want to transform a Docbook document to braille. > > > Does anyone have a braille reading device and know visually impaired > > > person who can test this? > > > > have you talked to any one on the Accessbility team? > > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AccessibilityTeam > > > > I think it is Luke Yelavich from that group who is working on a > > Accessibility-derivitive of Hoary for vision-impaired users: > > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LukeYelavich > > > > They should be able to point you in the right direction to test this. > > Hello Luke, > > I would like to link up with a vision-impaired person that has a braille > device to test Ubuntu Linux documents transformed from Docbook XML to > braille. Perhaps you can point me the best direction? First, this is a fantastic idea. I have never thought of this before myself, but that is probably due to the fact that I don't know docbook. As for devices, I think the issue here is more how they appear when embossed. By embossed I mean printing the Braille out on a braille printer, known as an embosser. Other devices that would be worth considering for use in reading such material are the various Braille PDAs that are around. However these devices genearlly support closed Microsoft Word formats, but do have web browsers for reading HTML. These devices are also quite different in how they operate at a software level. I am no expert on Braille either. I do use it, and can read it. I also own an embosser. However since literrary Braille has differences in Braille code, even for different English languages such as Brittish or U.S English, things could get a little problematic. I would be happy to try and answer any questions you or anybody else has regarding Braille. I can also try and help you get in touch with various people who work with it on a more regular basis if you like. > This message was cc'd to the ubuntu-doc mailing list. If you are not > subscribed I will forward messages on your behalf so that interested may > linkup. I am now subscribed, so I can follow this discussion on the list. -- Luke Get my public GPG key here: http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From troywill1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 23:10:43 2005 From: troywill1 at gmail.com (Troy Williams) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:10:43 -0500 Subject: DocBook Wiki Message-ID: <200504201810.50571.troywill1@gmail.com> Don't know if this would be of interest to anyone, but I found it through the Gnome Doc Mailing List. Just FYI... Troy > From: Jaap Haitsma > Date: April 10, 2005 4:31:49 PM CDT > To: gnome-doc-list at gnome.org > Subject: Docbook wiki > > Hi, > > Came across this http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/ > It's a wiki frontend for creating docbook content. Sounds like a very > easy to make docbook content. Would be great if that would lead to > more ?people contributing to the GNOME documentation if such an > interface was available > > Jaap > _______________________________________________ > gnome-doc-list mailing list > gnome-doc-list at gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-doc-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 21 05:38:09 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:38:09 +0200 Subject: DocBook Wiki In-Reply-To: <200504201810.50571.troywill1@gmail.com> References: <200504201810.50571.troywill1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504210738.09292.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 21 April 2005 01:10, Troy Williams wrote: > Don't know if this would be of interest to anyone, but I found it through > the Gnome Doc Mailing List. ?Just FYI... Tried tested, falls over. Lacks many features and will take much time to become anything near what will be needed. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 21 06:10:27 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:10:27 +0200 Subject: Documentation for the handicapped In-Reply-To: <20050420225851.GA23223@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> References: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> <200504201943.54006.sean@inwords.co.za> <20050420225851.GA23223@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> Message-ID: <200504210810.30928.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 21 April 2005 00:58, Luke Yelavich wrote: > As for devices, I think the issue here is more how they appear when > embossed. By embossed I mean printing the Braille out on a braille > printer, known as an embosser. > Testing on a plain embosser would be our best first step. At present I am struggling with the difference between Braille 1 and Braille 2. The contractions in braille 2 are the main problem and I have not found many example implimentations for 8 key braille and no standard set for 'moon' [http://www.bsblind.co.uk/full/moon/moontype.htm] I have however found a character set for 8 key. From the readme I quote: "2005 March 24 This directory contains a single PDF file containing the complete set of character code tables and list of character names for The Unicode Standard, Version 4.1. The purpose of this file is to provide a stable and complete reference of the code tables and list of character names for this version of the Unicode Standard. This file will not be updated with errata, or when additional characters are assigned to the Unicode Standard. See http://www.unicode.org/charts/ for access to a complete list of the latest character code charts. See http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/Unicode-4.1/ for charts showing only the characters added in Unicode 4.1. Both of these locations provide access to multiple files for convenient on-line viewing of individual code tables. Fonts The shapes of the reference glyphs used in these code charts are not prescriptive. Considerable variation is to be expected in actual fonts. The particular fonts used in these charts were provided to the Unicode Consortium by a number of different font designers, who own the rights to the fonts. See http://www.unicode.org/charts/fonts.html for a list. Terms of Use The terms of use for the character code charts differ from the general terms of use for the Unicode web site or the Unicode Character Database. You may freely use these code charts for personal or internal business uses only. You may not incorporate them either wholly or in part into any product or publication, or otherwise distribute them without express written permission from the Unicode Consortium. However, you may provide links to these charts. The fonts and font data used in production of these Code Charts may NOT be extracted, or used in any other way in any product or publication, without permission or license granted by the typeface owner(s). The Unicode Consortium is not liable for errors or omissions in these character code charts or any other part of the Unicode Standard itself. Copyright ? 1991-2005 Unicode, Inc. All rights reserved. See http://www.unicode.org/terms_of_use.html for more information." What worries me is the statement, "You may not incorporate them either wholly or in part into any product or publication, or otherwise distribute them without express written permission from the Unicode Consortium." So our trick is not to distribute them. > > I would be happy to try and answer any questions you or anybody else has > regarding Braille. I can also try and help you get in touch with various > people who work with it on a more regular basis if you like. Thanks, I have found a set of DSSSLs dating back to early 1900s. This would require OPENJade. I would like ax XSL 1.0 compliant solution, do you know of any? -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From themuso at themuso.com Thu Apr 21 06:48:35 2005 From: themuso at themuso.com (Luke Yelavich) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:48:35 +1000 Subject: Documentation for the handicapped In-Reply-To: <200504210810.30928.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> <200504201943.54006.sean@inwords.co.za> <20050420225851.GA23223@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> <200504210810.30928.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <20050421064835.GA10414@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 04:10:27PM EST, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Thursday 21 April 2005 00:58, Luke Yelavich wrote: > > As for devices, I think the issue here is more how they appear when > > embossed. By embossed I mean printing the Braille out on a braille > > printer, known as an embosser. > > > > Testing on a plain embosser would be our best first step. At present I am > struggling with the difference between Braille 1 and Braille 2. The > contractions in braille 2 are the main problem and I have not found many > example implimentations for 8 key braille and no standard set for > 'moon' [http://www.bsblind.co.uk/full/moon/moontype.htm] As far as I know, 8 dot Braille is only used with Braille displays, using the 7th and 8th dots for a cursor, etc. However I am not a big user of Braille, so there are probably many other uses that I don't know about. > I have however found a character set for 8 key. > > From the readme I quote: I am not really up on documentation, character sets etc. What does unicode have to do with this? > What worries me is the statement, "You may not incorporate them either wholly > or in part into any product or publication, or otherwise distribute them > without express written permission from the Unicode Consortium." So our trick > is not to distribute them. What use are they for Braille? > > I would be happy to try and answer any questions you or anybody else > > has regarding Braille. I can also try and help you get in touch with > > various people who work with it on a more regular basis if you like. > > Thanks, I have found a set of DSSSLs dating back to early 1900s. This would > require OPENJade. I would like ax XSL 1.0 compliant solution, do you know of > any? Again, you have lost me here. I still don't see what this has to do with Braille. -- Luke Get my public GPG key here: http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From ar018 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 21 10:30:49 2005 From: ar018 at yahoo.com (Abdullah Ramazanoglu) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:30:49 +0300 Subject: ? to Docbook [was Re: kubuntu ubuntuguide version] References: <200504201458.14158.sean@inwords.co.za> <200504202031.32327.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: Sean Wheller dedi ki: --8<-- > Start here and do take a read on the subject: > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertTroffToDocbook > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertWikiToDocbook > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WritingDocbookWithOpenOffice > > The last one, I tried it and found I did not like. Perhaps you will, then > please document it. Thanks for the pointers, Sean. They're just what I've been looking for. I've read all but only installed and tried OO.o based one as I believe OO.o is the way to go. BTW it didn't work for me, and I've added installation steps to the wiki. Here is how I see it: Other tools are converting from specific formats to docbook/xml. Even if they're technically good at what they do (I don't know), they're still strategically ill-positioned. There are more formats than these tools combined can handle, and there's a need to use a different tool for each different input format. OTOH, OO.o (even if currently lacking mature toolset) is strategically good positioned: 1. OO.o is a very reasonable WYSIWYG authoring tool as a stand alone editor. So it's quite acceptable tool for document creation in the first place. 2. It is the most comprehensive "AnyFormat" to XML conversion tool I know of. Wiki(s) and troff/man and many other formats can be easily converted to HTML without loosing much meta-info, and HTML can be imported by OO.o. Beyond that, not only HTML, but you give OO.o just about any mainstream document format and it spits out XML. A perfect input plugin for the larger task of Any-To-DocBook conversion. 3. It's old native format is XML (presumably close to DocBook) and it's new native format is *OASIS/XML*. AFAIK DocBook/xml is also an *OASIS/XML*. What!? They're (almost) the same! If they're not the same, as I suspect, then I don't really understand why. Why .oot is not DocBook/xml, or why DocBook/xml is not .oot? Perhaps there might be a good chance of them merging in the future. Even if we ignore the merging probability, it should be very seamless, technically and theoretically, to do automated conversions between OO.o (2.x) and DocBook. (I'm ignoring OO.o v1.x as it will have been probably phased out by the time what I talk about is realized, if ever.) 4. Yes, ooo2dbk is too premature (or maybe it's just me :) to use seriously. But it's simply a small (50K sized deb) product, and this is a technical issue. However, the strategy it represents seems to be the best to me. So I wonder: Why OOo v-2 didn't adopt directly DocBook as the native v2/.oot format? Can't they adopt it in the future? At least, can't they provide input/output filters for DocBook/xml? They're the experts on the subject, and it should be easier for them than anyone to provide full featured DocBook/xml filters for OOo. What's more, their filters would be fully implementing the rich features of its OOo2/xml, and also would be closely tracking any additions to OOo2/xml. The whole ooo2dbk deb package takes just about 50K and it allegedly does a good job of OOo (1.x) to DocBook conversion. So, it should be a fairly simple job for OOo devs to accomplish. Just imagine this: Authors can write freely in OOo and output is directly imported into DocBook (I'd wish it *is* DocBook, or DocBook *is* .oot). Want to write with another tool in another format, or found some gem hidden somewhere on the Net? No problem. Just feed it into OOo and it tosses out the XML .oot version which is then directly imported into DocBook. Super good! (I hope it's not "too" good. :) Of course, all this assuming that OOo2/xml is *not* the same as DocBook/xml. Otherwise, the wheel is already invented! Let's whizz around... I was almost forgetting the caveat :) that I'm pretty ignorant on XML details, including DocBook and OOo versions. So I might be missing something ridiculously fundamental. Best regards -- Abdullah Ramazanoglu aramazan ?T myrealbox D0T c?m From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 21 13:20:57 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:20:57 +0200 Subject: Documentation for the handicapped In-Reply-To: <20050421064835.GA10414@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> References: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> <200504210810.30928.sean@inwords.co.za> <20050421064835.GA10414@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> Message-ID: <200504211521.05034.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 21 April 2005 08:48, Luke Yelavich wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 04:10:27PM EST, Sean Wheller wrote: > > On Thursday 21 April 2005 00:58, Luke Yelavich wrote: > > > As for devices, I think the issue here is more how they appear when > > > embossed. By embossed I mean printing the Braille out on a braille > > > printer, known as an embosser. > > > > Testing on a plain embosser would be our best first step. At present I am > > struggling with the difference between Braille 1 and Braille 2. The > > contractions in braille 2 are the main problem and I have not found many > > example implimentations for 8 key braille and no standard set for > > 'moon' [http://www.bsblind.co.uk/full/moon/moontype.htm] > > As far as I know, 8 dot Braille is only used with Braille displays, > using the 7th and 8th dots for a cursor, etc. However I am not a big > user of Braille, so there are probably many other uses that I don't know > about. Yes, my primary focus was to address the reading of braille on braille displays. Perhaps for embossers I will need to consider 6 dot. > > > I have however found a character set for 8 key. > > > > From the readme I quote: > > > > I am not really up on documentation, character sets etc. What does > unicode have to do with this? Sorry, you are right I just ahead expecting you to read into my thoughts. Let's start at the beginning We store our XML encoded as UTF-8. UTF-8 is Unicode, a code table that assigns integer numbers to characters. The Unicode Block available for Braille Patterns is from U+2800 to U+28FF a total of 256 characters. This block is however, 6 dot notation. Good for embossers. Not so good for braille displays. Now we do not type in braille, so we have to first transcribe our characters into into braille and then transform to the file format expected by an embosser or braille display. Here is where Unicode comes in since we can clearly map braille characters to their European character. > > > > I would be happy to try and answer any questions you or anybody else > > > has regarding Braille. I can also try and help you get in touch with > > > various people who work with it on a more regular basis if you like. > > > > Thanks, I have found a set of DSSSLs dating back to early 1900s. This > > would require OPENJade. I would like ax XSL 1.0 compliant solution, do > > you know of any? > > Again, you have lost me here. I still don't see what this has to do with > Braille. To transform our Docbook XML to a format that is useful under a braille display or embosser, we must first transcribe characters and then output a file in the format expected by these devices. It is a two step process. XSLT can help us to achieve this. I have found DSSSL stylesheets that do a reasonable just, but it would be much better if we had XSL stylesheets to perfrom both processing steps above. Hope I made it clearer. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 21 13:36:22 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:36:22 +0200 Subject: ? to Docbook [was Re: kubuntu ubuntuguide version] In-Reply-To: References: <200504202031.32327.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504211536.26106.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 21 April 2005 12:30, Abdullah Ramazanoglu wrote: > I was almost forgetting the caveat :) that I'm pretty ignorant on XML > details, including DocBook and OOo versions. So I might be missing > something ridiculously fundamental. Fundamental, yes. But Abdullah this converstion is long and pressing for time. Although, it is interesting to me, I must ask you to accept certain issues as fact under the current technologies. Believe me when I say that I have been around this bush more times that I care to remember. It is a square circle. If there was a better, free and open solution out there, I would be the first to announce and probably adopt it myself. Fact is there is not, but this is not to say there will never be, I continue to monitor. One of my monthly rituals is to catchup on all the XML stuff I can, particularly in the space of authoring, document and content management. For now I think you need to find a process and toolchain that works for you and in the interest of becoming a productive contributor to the documentation projects, start writing. I can see the subject is close to you and you are passionate about it, so is the case with me, so visit this issue at a steady frequency. In the interim you will find that you have learned much more about the problems that need to be addressed and, who knows, you may discover a solution that millions of intellectual geniuses have overlooked. Volker Bernhard Duetsch made a good suggestion to use APT [http://www.xmlmind.com/aptconvert.html] see if this process will work for you. It does work for many people I know. Personally, I preffer to go directly into the source format of storage and so obviate the need for additional processing and updates. Take into consideration that working in the APT method is only good one way. Once you commit, authors will hack only the XML you obtained from your APT. In which case you may find yourself updating your APT source more than you would like in order to keep it in sync. Later, hope this helps. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Thu Apr 21 14:17:45 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:17:45 +0100 Subject: poxml In-Reply-To: <1114092238.5826.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114092238.5826.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: hi carlos, Am forwarding this question to the docteam list as I have not been involved in the xml2pot po2xml process and don't really know how to answer: hopefully Sean or someone else will be able to answer it! > Btw, are you using poxml from KDE instead of the poxml python script > that comes with gnome-doc-utils? Matt From sean at inwords.co.za Thu Apr 21 14:09:17 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:09:17 +0200 Subject: poxml In-Reply-To: References: <1114092238.5826.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504211609.20599.sean@inwords.co.za> On Thursday 21 April 2005 16:17, matthew.east at breathe.com wrote: > > Btw, are you using poxml from KDE instead of the poxml python script > > that comes with gnome-doc-utils? We are using the KDE toolchain. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From troywill1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 18:28:09 2005 From: troywill1 at gmail.com (Troy Williams) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:28:09 -0500 Subject: DocBook Wiki In-Reply-To: <200504210738.09292.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504201810.50571.troywill1@gmail.com> <200504210738.09292.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504211328.16484.troywill1@gmail.com> On Thursday 21 April 2005 12:38 am, Sean Wheller wrote: > Tried tested, falls over. Lacks many features and will take much time to > become anything near what will be needed. OK, I don't have any experience with it; just happened upon it on the Gnome list. And, being new to this list, wasn't sure if it was something that had been looked at or not (considering the recent threads concerning DocBook knowledge, or lack thereof). Regards, Troy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jjesse at iserv.net Fri Apr 22 02:05:30 2005 From: jjesse at iserv.net (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:05:30 -0400 Subject: Question on KQuickguide Message-ID: I was looking at the KQuickguide today and noticed that in several places it is now refered to as Kubuntu Kwick Guide. I was curious as to why the change to that document. Should we keep it uniform like the Gnome QuickGuide or are we know following the standard of KDE by putting a K in front of everything. BTW reading the rest of the information in there a nd it looks good. From jgotangco at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 02:22:56 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:22:56 +0800 Subject: Question on KQuickguide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually if you notice the comments everything is still in draft the K in Quick Guide was just my thing since I am the one hacking at it at the moment. My first version was Kubuntu Kwick Kompendium (KKK) :-) I will probably commit a new version tonight, my schedule today is quite tight, feel free to hack around the document, create a diff patch and submit it to this list so that the we can commit it. If you're not sure how to do this, just send away your edited xml file. But then you're right the quick guide should be uniform that's why the basic tree structure of the document is very similar to the existing gnome doc, thus reflecting the quick guide structure. Jerome On 4/22/05, Jonathan Jesse wrote: > I was looking at the KQuickguide today and noticed that in several places it > is now refered to as Kubuntu Kwick Guide. I was curious as to why the > change to that document. Should we keep it uniform like the Gnome > QuickGuide or are we know following the standard of KDE by putting a K in > front of everything. > > BTW reading the rest of the information in there a nd it looks good. > -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From jgotangco at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 02:25:18 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:18 +0800 Subject: Question on KQuickguide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I also forgot to mention that Jeff is busy doing the style guide so everything will definitely change once this guide is finalized and approved by everyone involved. Jerome From jeffschering at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 03:35:38 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:35:38 -0700 Subject: Question on KQuickguide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/21/05, Jerome Gotangco wrote: > I also forgot to mention that Jeff is busy doing the style guide so > everything will definitely change once this guide is finalized and > approved by everyone involved. > Yes, working very hard... This thread brings a kouple of things to mind, one of them being the overuse of the letter 'K' when it komes to dokuments and other references koncerning KDE. Personally, I find it korny and distrakting. Using 'K' is not a problem; using it everywhere is. For the style guide I will be proposing that only one 'K' be used in any title referring to a KDE applikation or feature. That would mean that the KDE version of the Quick Guide should be kalled "The Kubuntu Quick Guide". I hope the kommunity agrees with this. There is also the issue of internationalization: "kwick" doesn't translate well, I suspekt. Another issue that comes to mind is the use of humour in titles and in the text of the document. Humour is a cultural thing, and it's difficult to make a joke that does not offend somebody somewhere for some reason. For example, in Canada and the USA, the KKK is a violent, hate-based, racist, criminal organization. It is not something you would want to mention in association with Ubuntu. The proposed "One K" rule above will prevent inadvertent use of the letters KKK to describe a Kubuntu app or feature. Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 22 07:32:25 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:32:25 +0200 Subject: Documentation for the handicapped In-Reply-To: <200504211521.05034.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504201821.33477.sean@inwords.co.za> <20050421064835.GA10414@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> <200504211521.05034.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504220932.29378.sean@inwords.co.za> I have been doing more research into Braille and found many resources on the Internet that have been most helpful in giving me some insight into the scale of the problem and technical challenges posed. While doing my research I encountered this gem, XML TO BRAILLE, from Computers to Help People, Inc. (CHPI) [http://www.chpi.org/]. It is free and open source, a tarball is available from http://www.chpi.org/xml2brl-0.2.tar.gz. Currently xml2brl only works on Linux, but press releases indicate that they are working on a Windows port. Simple tests on my box have given great results. I have yet to get the time to perform tests on complex documents. What I like is that xml2brl is easy to use and optimized for technical literature. For your convenience I attached the README file for xml2brl. I hope attachments can go to this list. I hope I am on the right tack, I would really like to make my vision of being able to supply GNU/Linux documentation is Braille. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- THE xml2brl PROGRAM This is Release 0.2 of the xml2brl program. Changes from the previous release are listed in the file ChangeLog. This README file details any changes in usage. The most notable is that the program now handles some MathML. If you are reading the plain-text README file, you may find it useful to load README.html into your browser. This will enable you to go directly to the sites where you can download the libraries upon which this software depends. Once you have installed xml2brl, you can also get a braille copy by running README.html through the program. It is written in xhtml, which is an xml flavor. The braille translation part of the xml2brl program is based on BRLTTY. All the necessary BRLTTY files for use in the U.S. have been included in the package. However, if you need different contraction tables or different text tables, you must obtain them from BRLTTY. You can download the latest version of BRLTTY from [1]http://dave.mielke.cc/brltty. Besides BRLTTY, this software depends on the following libraries: glib [2]ftp://ftp.gtk.org/pub/gtk/v2.4 libxml2 [3]http://www.xmlsoft.org gdome2 [4]http://gdome2.cs.unibo.it You must download the latest versions of these libraries and install them in the above sequence. The program accepts input files in either xml or plain text and in many natural languages (which may be in UTF-8 Unicode) and produces a brf file suitable for printing directly on an embosser. The brf file has the same format as the files on Web-Braille and should behave exactly the same. xml files must be well-formed. They are transcribed as specified by a semantic-actions (.sem) file. If no such file exists for a given root element, a prototype file is created. Its name is formed by adding ".sem" to the name of the root element, for example, "dtbook3.sem". The user must then edit this file to obtain phoper transcription. The program will print a warning message if the editing step is omitted. Instructions on how to do this editing are given in the section "SEMANTIC-ACTIONS FILES" in this document. The program tests whether a file is xml. If not, it assumes a plain text file. In this file, lines may be of any length. Paragraphs should be separated by blank lines. Lines within paragraphs are concatenated before translation, with blanks in place of newlines. If a blank line is desired in the output, use three blank lines. Whether the file is xml or plain text, paragraphs are indented two spaces. There is a braille page number in the lower right-hand corner of each page. If an xml file contains print page numbers, and this has been specified in the semantic-actionss file, a page-separator line is placed between print pages, and the print page number appears in the upper right-hand corner, proceeded by the letters a, b, etc. The command line is: xml2brl inputfile outputfile If you omit both inputfile and outputfile the program acts as a filter, taking input from stdin and delivering output to stdout. This enables xml2brl to be used in a chain of printer drivers, with output directly to an embosser, if desired. If you wish to specify an output file but take input from stdin, use a minus sign in place of inputfile. Options are set in a configuration file discussed in the section "CONFIGURATION FILE". The author wishes to acknowledge his debt to the BRLTTY team. to learn more about BRLTTY go to its official website, [5]http://dave.mielke.cc/brltty. The section "FILES" below tells which files have been copied from BRLTTY. Like BRLTTY, this software is under the Gnu Public License (GPL). The non-BRLTTY portions are copyright by the author, John J. boyer, director at chpi.org . The libraries listed previously are all part of the GNOME project and are under the Lesser Gnu Public License (LGPL). Details are given in the file C COPYING INSTALLATIoN This is an alpha release. Therefore, it is best to install it in a subdirectory of your home directory. To do this, download the distribution tarball into your home directory, then type tar xfz xml2brl-xxx.tar.gz This will create the directory xml2brl-xxx, where xxx is a version number. After installing any necessary libraries, go to the xml2brl-xxx directory and type "make". This will create the xml2brl program. If you wish to re-create the program, first type "make clean" and then "make". Before you try to run the program, execute the following statement at the command prompt: export LD_LIBRARY_PATH='/usr/local/lib' You may wish to add this command to your .bashrc script. SEMANTIC-ACTIONS FILES These files tell xml2brl how to handle your documents. Whenever the program encounters a new root element, it creates a prototype semantic actions file. Each line in this file has two columns. The first column is the word "no", signifying that no semantic action has been specified. The second column may contain one of the following: an element name; an element name, followed by a comma, followed by an attribute name; an element name, followed by a comma, followed by an attribute name, followed by a comma, followed by the first few characters of an attribute value. The program prints a message saying it is creating this file, then terminates. Semantic files have names composed of the root element name and '.sem'. To get xml2brl to transcribe your document correctly, you must edit the semantic file, replacing the word "no" in the first column with an appropriate semantic action, such as "para" for paragraph, "heading1" for the main heading, etc. The file sem-enum.h contains a list of valid semantic actions, most of which should be self-explanatory. If you rerun the program without editing the semantic-actions file, it prints a message saying that the output will be unformatted. You can add comments to the file by using a number sign (#) as the first non-blank character in a line. If you transcribe a new document with the same root element, but with additional element names, attribute names or values, these will be added to the end of the semantics-action file, proceeded by the comment "#appended entries". You may then edit the new entries. If you wish the program to continue to take no action for an entry, leave it unchanged. Do not comment it out. This will cause the program to add it to the end of the file as a new entry. Several semantic-actions files are provided with the program. There is one for dtbook3 files, such as those produced by Bookshare.org, for xhtml files, with or without included MathML, for Microsoft Word files exported as xml, and for docbook files. CONFIGURATION FILE As mentioned previously, options for xml2brl are set by a configuration file. This file is called "xml2brl.cfg" and resembles the semantics-actions files. Each line has two columns, a keyword, such as CellsPerLine, and a value such as 40. Comments are proceeded by "#". The keywords should be self-explanatory. FILES The following files have been copied without change from BRLTTY: brldefs.h brl.h countries.cti ctb_compile.c ctb_definitions.h ctb.h ctb_translate.c en-us-g2.ctb misc.h tbl.c tbl.h text.nabcc.tbl. Note the following exceptions: The line "include countries.cti" in us-en-g2.ctb has been changed to "include specsym.cti". The misc.c file was cut down to only the functions needed by xml2brl and these functions were considerably modified. The following files were produced by the author: brffilt.c: A small filter for viewing brf files on a braille display with translation mode in BRLTTY turned off. It can also be used as a prototype for writing other filters. To compile it, use the command line "gcc -o brffilt -O2 -Wall brffilt.c" ChangeLog: log of changes made from release to release COPYING: Detailed license dtbook3.sem: Semantic-actions file for books from Bookshare.org en-us-mathtext.ctb: Translation table for math documents examine_document.c: Traverse2s the DOM tree to determine characteristics of the document, such as whether it contains math. Also does preprocessing. html.sem: Semantics-action file for xhtml documents Makefile: For compiling the whole program. readconfig.c: Reads and processes the configuration file readconfig.h: Header file for above README: plain-text version of the folling README.html: This file. read_TextTable.c: Basically a wrapper for the functions in tbl.c semantics.c: Contains functions for handling semantics-action files and tables semantics.h: Header file for semantics.c; includes sem_enum.h sem_enum.h: list of valid semantic actions. ?Note that if you change this file you must recompile the entire program. sem_rout.c: Contains non-trivial semantic routines or rutines that may vary with natural language sem_rout.h: Header file for above specsym.cti: Special symbols needed in translation of xml files transcribe_chemistry.c: Handles chemical formulas in DOM tree transcribe_document.c: This is the basic transcription routine which traverses the DOM tree and calls transcribe_paragraph, transcribe_math, etc., as needed. transcribe_graphic.c: Handles SVG graphics in the DOM tree transcribe_math.c: Handles MathML and other xml math notations transcribe_music.c: transcribes music notation expressed in xml transcribe_paragraph.c: Handles "paragraphs", including headings, in the DOM tree transcriber.c: Contains the low-level transcription routines, including the routine for transcribing plain text. transcriber.h: Header file for above w_wordDocument.sem: semantics-action file for Microsoft Word documents exported as xml xml2brl.c: The main program. xml2brl.cfg: Configuration file xml2brl.h: Header file for main program References 1. http://dave.mielke.cc/brltty 2. ftp://ftp.gtk.org/pub/gtk/v2.4 3. http://www.xmlsoft.org/ 4. http://gdome2.cs.unibo.it/ 5. http://dave.mielke.cc/brltty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east at breathe.com Fri Apr 22 10:27:50 2005 From: matthew.east at breathe.com (matthew.east at breathe.com) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:27:50 +0100 Subject: Question on KQuickguide (fwd) Message-ID: Whoops, Jonathan pointed out that I failed to reply to list for this message: ----------Forwarded message ---------- Did you mean to reply to the whole list or just to me? -----Original Message----- From: Matthew East [mailto:matthew.east at breathe.com] Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 10:04 PM To: Jonathan Jesse Subject: Re: Question on KQuickguide On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 22:05 -0400, Jonathan Jesse wrote: > I was looking at the KQuickguide today and noticed that in several places it > is now refered to as Kubuntu Kwick Guide. I was curious as to why the > change to that document. Should we keep it uniform like the Gnome > QuickGuide or are we know following the standard of KDE by putting a K in > front of everything. My two cents on this: it is just silly. I thought the references to Kwick on this list were just joking! IMO Cool that the document is going so well though :) Matt From paroz at email.ch Fri Apr 22 21:21:42 2005 From: paroz at email.ch (Claude Paroz) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:21:42 +0200 Subject: po2xml from Hoary Message-ID: <1114204902.8063.23.camel@paroz> Hi, I've just checked if the quickguide fr.po from Rosetta was OK to transform back to .xml. The result was rather positive, but I encountered another problem. The po2xml command places some newline characters inside xml tags: &inline-ubuntu-icon; <phrase >Guide express</phrase > instead of &inline-ubuntu-icon; <phrase>Guide express</phrase> Has it something to do with the Hoary version of po2xml ? Could someone check this ? Claude From sean at inwords.co.za Fri Apr 22 22:48:42 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:48:42 +0200 Subject: po2xml from Hoary In-Reply-To: <1114204902.8063.23.camel@paroz> References: <1114204902.8063.23.camel@paroz> Message-ID: <200504230048.47144.sean@inwords.co.za> > Has it something to do with the Hoary version of po2xml ? Could someone > check this ? Confirmed this is a problem that we, or shall I say I resolve with a tidy formatter. The result should still be valid and well-formed. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jeffschering at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 04:23:05 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:23:05 -0700 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu Message-ID: Hello One of the things the style guide will specify is how we refer to Ubuntu in our documents and on our wiki. The current terms, taken from the StyleGuide wiki page, are below. 1. When referring to Ubuntu: Ubuntu or Ubuntu Operating System 2. When referring to Linux plus userland applications: GNU/Linux 3. If one wants to explicitly refer to the GNU/Linux nature of the current Ubuntus: Ubuntu GNU/Linux 4. When referring to the Linux kernel: Linux Is there any reason why we would change this? Any additions to the list? Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From jeffschering at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 04:38:04 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:38:04 -0700 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu Documentation Team Message-ID: Hello For the style guide, I will need to know how the docteam refers to itself in the documents that it produces. Amongst ourselves on irc and in email we can say whatever we want, but we need to use a consistent term in docs and on the wiki. 1. For the docteam, I propose "Ubuntu Documentation Team", or "docteam" for short. Not "UDT", except on irc and in email. 2. I have seen the term "Ubuntu Documentation Project" (UDP) in a couple of places, but it doesn't seem to be used a lot. Is there such a thing as the Ubuntu Documentation Project? And if so, what is the relationship between the UDP and the docteam? Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Sun Apr 24 09:21:06 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:21:06 +1000 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050424092106.GH8971@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Sat, Apr 23, 2005, Jeff Schering wrote: > 2. When referring to Linux plus userland applications: > GNU/Linux > > 3. If one wants to explicitly refer to the GNU/Linux nature of the > current Ubuntus: > Ubuntu GNU/Linux What's the basis for the choice of "GNU/Linux" over "Linux", especially for #2? Just to put this in perspective, I'm aware of the general arguments for and against referring to "Linux+applications" as "GNU/Linux" and don't really want to re-hash the debate here, especially since it was just discussed on the sounder list. What I'm particularly asking for is the reason that you've decided that "GNU/Linux" is the preferred way. Is it that: - you personally agree with the FSF arguments in favour of GNU/Linux; - Debian prefers to "GNU/Linux"; - the docteam by and large agrees with the FSF arguments; - Canonical prefers "GNU/Linux"; or - the Ubuntu development/user communities prefer "GNU/Linux"? I'm asking because I don't see a huge amount of evidence for any reason other than the first two points (if you have evidence, by all means supply links, I don't pretend to follow the community that closely), and given the recent controversy on sounder, I'd rather not let it pass without comment now only to fuel a bundle of threads later. -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Sun Apr 24 09:24:50 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:24:50 +1000 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050424092450.GI8971@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Sat, Apr 23, 2005, Jeff Schering wrote: > The current terms, taken from the StyleGuide wiki page, are below. Actually, after reading this sentence I see you're quoting a version by Enrico. In that case, the questions in my previous post are more for Enrico than for you :) Since those guidelines do seem to have existed for at least five months, that does lend some support to keeping them that way. -Mary From sean at inwords.co.za Sun Apr 24 11:28:42 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:28:42 +0200 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050424092106.GH8971@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050424092106.GH8971@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <200504241328.46624.sean@inwords.co.za> On Sunday 24 April 2005 11:21, Mary Gardiner wrote: > - you personally agree with the FSF arguments in favour of GNU/Linux; > ?- Debian prefers to "GNU/Linux"; > ?- the docteam by and large agrees with the FSF arguments; > ?- Canonical prefers "GNU/Linux"; or > ?- the Ubuntu development/user communities prefer "GNU/Linux"? All of the above for me + it is more technically correct :-) -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Sun Apr 24 11:31:34 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:31:34 +0200 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050424092450.GI8971@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050424092450.GI8971@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <200504241331.34266.sean@inwords.co.za> On Sunday 24 April 2005 11:24, Mary Gardiner wrote: > Since those guidelines do seem to have existed for at least five months, > that does lend some support to keeping them that way. Yes and no. Yes, they do work. No, not all are used correctly. I think what Jeff wants is to document them as official so that we can avoid future debates on this subject. Airing it here gives people the opportunity to speak now or forever hold the peace :-) -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Mon Apr 25 01:17:31 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:17:31 +1000 Subject: Specifications Message-ID: <20050425011731.GA8909@home.puzzling.org> Hey folks, Just coming in live from Ubuntu Down Under ;) It seems like the development team is moving a little bit towards a specification model. There are lots of samples on the Ubuntu Down Under wiki, see http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadAndUbuntuCommunity as a random example. They aren't terribly well-linked from the wiki front page, but do some digging. The idea seems to be that major proposals for development direction will be created around these specifications, at least at conference time. Hence, since we want to tie ourselves more closely to the development process where possible, it might be worth trying to find specifications relevant to use and tracking the specification. I'm not sure how this is going to go after the conference: whether discussion will continue to result in improved specifications or whether it will move back to diffuse channels like IRC/bugzilla. -Mary From matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com Mon Apr 25 02:13:24 2005 From: matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com (Matthew east) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 03:13:24 +0100 Subject: Translation of Docteam Documents Through Rosetta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114395204.6817.7.camel@localhost.mdke> > I personally am very excited about using Rosetta to translate our documents, > and also of the possibility of getting some more translated documentation > into Hoary as updates. An update on a way to automate the process of checking whether translations in Rosetta are ready and downloading files has presented itself. Some brilliant guy has written a script in python to do the job. Basically when run without flags it gets all the available translations and dumps them in the working directory. When passed with -s, it prints a list of the available translations and their status. Brilliant! I've adapted it slightly so that it fits the docteam stuff. However as yet I haven't adapted it to fit our directory structure: what would need to be done would be to put each downloaded po file in their own directory as per the team structure. In any case, for now we can use these scripts to check for updated translations on the HOARY documentation in Rosetta, and hopefully when Breezy appears in Rosetta we can figure out how to automate the process so that the downloads go nicely into our trunk structure. Matt From jeffschering at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 02:44:45 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:44:45 -0700 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504241331.34266.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <20050424092450.GI8971@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <200504241331.34266.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: On 4/24/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > > I think what Jeff wants is to document them as official so that we can avoid > future debates on this subject. Airing it here gives people the opportunity > to speak now or forever hold the peace :-) > Yes, that's exactly what I want. I'll be taking the feedback I get from here and my own research to come up with a proposal for Ubuntu nomenclature. When the proposal is ready, I'll post it. We can either accept it, or modify it and then accept it. I hope to have the proposal ready in a couple of days, and I also hope to come up with something that everyone can accept without modification. The less time we spend on this type of debate the better. Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From troywill1 at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 04:44:51 2005 From: troywill1 at gmail.com (Troy Williams) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 23:44:51 -0500 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504242344.57546.troywill1@gmail.com> On Saturday 23 April 2005 11:23 pm, Jeff Schering wrote: > Hello > > One of the things the style guide will specify is how we refer to > Ubuntu in our documents and on our wiki. The current terms, taken from > the StyleGuide wiki page, are below. > > 1. When referring to Ubuntu: > Ubuntu or Ubuntu Operating System > > 2. When referring to Linux plus userland applications: > GNU/Linux > > 3. If one wants to explicitly refer to the GNU/Linux nature of the > current Ubuntus: > Ubuntu GNU/Linux > > 4. When referring to the Linux kernel: > Linux > > Is there any reason why we would change this? Any additions to the list? > > Cheers, > Jeff > > -- > GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering It is all well and good that FSF, Debian, Canonical and development communities recognize the distinction between GNU, Linux, GNU/Linux, etc., but what does the audience care about any or all? Maybe alot, depends on who the audience is...maybe they will ask "where to download this GNU/Linux when I am done with this Ubuntu/Linux". Troy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Mon Apr 25 04:53:10 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:53:10 +1000 Subject: Rosetta One Point Zero Message-ID: <20050425045259.GA11764@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Hi docteam, The Rosetta team is keen to have some description of our process so that they can figure docteam needs into the 1.0 requirements of Rosetta (which I gather is scheduled for about eight weeks from now, so they need to prioritise features). They seem to be most interested in a description of our process as it lines up against the Ubuntu release cycle. Carlos (Cc-ed) may be able to elaborate if he has time. I know he's also been talking to Matthew East: Matthew is there any chance you can sum up previous discussion for the mailing list? Rosetta discussion and specifications will be continuing for a few days, but a basic outline of our use of Rosetta, our needs from Rosetta and any other comments would be useful for them soon: as in, in the next 12-48 hours. Here's Corey's comments from IRC: 1. when translating a locale, show other locales of the same language 2. Be able to specify what language the pot file is in, and those that language would be automatically translated -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Mon Apr 25 04:55:34 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:55:34 +1000 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <200504242344.57546.troywill1@gmail.com> References: <200504242344.57546.troywill1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050425045534.GB11764@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> On Sun, Apr 24, 2005, Troy Williams wrote: > It is all well and good that FSF, Debian, Canonical and development > communities recognize the distinction between GNU, Linux, GNU/Linux, etc., > but what does the audience care about any or all? Part of the questions I had was about whether Canonical and the Ubuntu development community *does* recognise that... it's not clear to me that there's a concensus there either. -Mary From corey.burger at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 05:06:08 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:06:08 -0700 Subject: Style Guide: How to refer to Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <20050425045534.GB11764@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <200504242344.57546.troywill1@gmail.com> <20050425045534.GB11764@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <348bd6da0504242206259a8da0@mail.gmail.com> On 4/24/05, Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Sun, Apr 24, 2005, Troy Williams wrote: > > It is all well and good that FSF, Debian, Canonical and development > > communities recognize the distinction between GNU, Linux, GNU/Linux, etc., > > but what does the audience care about any or all? > > Part of the questions I had was about whether Canonical and the Ubuntu > development community *does* recognise that... it's not clear to me that > there's a concensus there either. > > -Mary Another question to ask is, is there a point to ever referring to anything other than Ubuntu? If we need to refer to the kernel, it is the kernel. If we are talking about the system as a whole, it is Ubuntu. This neatly avoids the whole issue and also really ties our brand together. Corey From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Mon Apr 25 05:52:32 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:52:32 +1000 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> Message-ID: <20050425055232.GA10373@home.puzzling.org> Hi everyone, The below is a mail sent to the administrators. What do people here think is the best approach for discussion in several languages? Should we have it all on the one list (with Mailman topics so that you can elect not to receive some messages)? -Mary On Tue, Apr 19, 2005, Olivier Staquet wrote: > Hi, > > I try to contact the ubuntu-doc mailing list administrator. I've find > your email on the ubuntu-doc subscribing page. > > With some people, we try to make a renewal of the french documentation. > And with Emmanuel Le Normand, we think use the ubuntu-doc mailing list > for the discussion about the documentation with a prefix in the topic > for see the difference with the english topic (prefix : [doc-fr]). > > Can we do this ? > > Thanks for your work on Ubuntu, > > Regards, > > Olivier STAQUET > > From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 06:50:10 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:50:10 +0200 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: <20050425055232.GA10373@home.puzzling.org> References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> <20050425055232.GA10373@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 07:52, Mary Gardiner wrote: > The below is a mail sent to the administrators. What do people here > think is the best approach for discussion in several languages? Should > we have it all on the one list (with Mailman topics so that you can > elect not to receive some messages)? Personally, I have no problem with it. But this will increase the list volume. Some of our English writers speak French and other languages. Having one list would be good. Extension to this though is that I would like to see all doc contributors commit in English to the Doc Project and having translations done in process via Rossetta. If everyone could just focus on a single point it would do wonders. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hwm at goomba.com Wed Apr 20 07:00:50 2005 From: hwm at goomba.com (Henry Meyerding) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 00:00:50 -0700 Subject: information you may be able to reuse Message-ID: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> Hello, When I figured out how to make my ubuntu box connect to the local ISP via dialup, I wrote their tech support people a howto. I know it's not in docbook, but maybe you can reuse some of it. I am enclosing the pdf. Let me know if you'd prefer the sxw. Thanks, -- Henry Meyerding hwm at goomba.com 360-793-1564 360-665-0730 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dialup_instructions.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 450509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From olivier.staquet at skynet.be Mon Apr 25 07:06:54 2005 From: olivier.staquet at skynet.be (Olivier Staquet) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:06:54 +0200 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> <20050425055232.GA10373@home.puzzling.org> <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <426C970E.2050304@skynet.be> Sean Wheller a ?crit : >On Monday 25 April 2005 07:52, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > >>The below is a mail sent to the administrators. What do people here >>think is the best approach for discussion in several languages? Should >>we have it all on the one list (with Mailman topics so that you can >>elect not to receive some messages)? >> >> > >Personally, I have no problem with it. But this will increase the list volume. >Some of our English writers speak French and other languages. Having one list >would be good. > >Extension to this though is that I would like to see all doc contributors >commit in English to the Doc Project and having translations done in process >via Rossetta. If everyone could just focus on a single point it would do >wonders. > > An idea is that the other languages writers write a summary in English of their post. This technique can create other ideas for other language. For this moment, we work on the wiki french page, so we don't use Rossetta (for this time). From ostaquet at skynet.be Mon Apr 25 07:17:08 2005 From: ostaquet at skynet.be (Olivier Staquet) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:17:08 +0200 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> <20050425055232.GA10373@home.puzzling.org> <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <426C9974.6060201@skynet.be> Sean Wheller a ?crit : >On Monday 25 April 2005 07:52, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > >>The below is a mail sent to the administrators. What do people here >>think is the best approach for discussion in several languages? Should >>we have it all on the one list (with Mailman topics so that you can >>elect not to receive some messages)? >> >> > >Personally, I have no problem with it. But this will increase the list volume. >Some of our English writers speak French and other languages. Having one list >would be good. > >Extension to this though is that I would like to see all doc contributors >commit in English to the Doc Project and having translations done in process >via Rossetta. If everyone could just focus on a single point it would do >wonders. > > An idea is that the other languages writers write a summary in English of their post. This technique can create other ideas for other language. For this moment, we work on the wiki french page, so we don't use Rossetta (for this time). From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 07:19:51 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:19:51 +0200 Subject: Rosetta One Point Zero In-Reply-To: <20050425045259.GA11764@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> References: <20050425045259.GA11764@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <200504250919.55507.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 06:53, Mary Gardiner wrote: > Rosetta discussion and specifications will be continuing for a few days, > but a basic outline of our use of Rosetta, our needs from Rosetta and > any other comments would be useful for them soon: as in, in the next > 12-48 hours. Much of the idea is here http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n However, in general we would like Rosetta to be a black box from our perspective. The main task of the Docteam is writing of docs in English. However we recognize the need for translation and so facilitate and support i18n processes. Our documentation process therefore has 3 loosely connected touch points at which we give and get information to and from Rosetta. I'll try outline this thinking. 1. We write an XML document in English. 2. We create a POT file. 3. We get it into Rosetta (touch point 1). 4. We monitor by way of a script the progress of translations (touch point 2). 5. As PO files are completed we automatically collect them and add to our repos (touch point 3). We discussed the possability of receiving email to the doc list notifying about completed PO files. This can be on a per file basis or a single digest containing the status of all our files. 6. Then we create a new XML instance from each of the translated PO files we have added to svn. 7. As we update the English XML we merge changes into the POT file 8. At this point the cycle starts again from step 3. The exchange of POT and PO files should be automated between our SVN repository and Rosetta. Finally at release we do the packaging. Ideally we would like to release documentation in language packs. Overtime we will need this same functionality to be available to tagged versions of our docs. Since we tag after release of the distro this should not be a problem. Saying this, I think that we will manage this from our side by way of our scripts. With this implimented our major focus can switch to fixing bugs in the toolchain. Rosetta was adding strange additional characters to the PO files. These caused our XML instances not to be valid and well-formed. A bug is filed for this. In poxml we also have problems. We are getting superfluous line feeds at the end of start tags. This is a problem of kdesdk and poxml and not Rosetta. This is the current process. Naturally, we would appreciate all efforts that make the touch points as automatic possible. From the time we fire up xml2pot and add the file to our repos to the time we fire up po2xml, we would like the interaction to be automated. > > Here's Corey's comments from IRC: > 2. Be able to specify what language the pot file is in, > and those that language would be automatically translated I don't know about POT files in languages other than English. Perhaps in Rosetta, but In our repos I would only like to see English POT files. They are the core drivers of our interaction with Rosetta. Hope this helps, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 07:22:19 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:22:19 +0200 Subject: information you may be able to reuse In-Reply-To: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> References: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> Message-ID: <200504250922.19751.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 09:00, Henry Meyerding wrote: > When I figured out how to make my ubuntu box connect to the local ISP > via dialup, I wrote their tech support people a howto. I know it's not > in docbook, but maybe you can reuse some of it. ?I am enclosing the pdf. > Let me know if you'd prefer the sxw. Thanks very much. Please send me the sxw off list. I will port it to XML and commit it for you. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 07:37:12 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:37:12 +0200 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: <426C9974.6060201@skynet.be> References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> <426C9974.6060201@skynet.be> Message-ID: <200504250937.12255.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 09:17, Olivier Staquet wrote: > An idea is that the other languages writers write a summary in English > of their post. This technique can create other ideas for other language. Yes, I have seen this done in places. As I said I think it is a positive move. My concern is just the overhead in mail payloads and, because us English speakers are bad at learning other languages, that writers of other languages will have the add burden of writing and translating every thing the write to the list. But hey, if they are prepared to do this then power to them. :-) > > For this moment, we work on the wiki french page, so we don't use > Rossetta (for this time). Sure. My issue here was not so much about the use of Rosetta. Rather I am concerned about all the different efforts on documentation. I think it is better to focus on developing documents for Ubuntu/Kubuntu in English in a single repository. In the English team, we have a hard time getting writers. I expect it is the same for other languages. By grouping and focusing on a single target and then relying on the translation process I think we can have a greater impact. I realize that writers authoring in other languages may feel that their English is not good enough and may even feel shy to contribute their docs in English, but I think the English team is sensitive and understanding of this and will support such authors by providing editing services on their work. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 07:42:54 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:42:54 +0200 Subject: information you may be able to reuse In-Reply-To: <200504250922.19751.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> <200504250922.19751.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504250942.58498.sean@inwords.co.za> Oh, one more point. Please send your acknowledgment that you agree to release this document under the terms of our licenses http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamLicense Thanks, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com Mon Apr 25 09:18:51 2005 From: matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com (matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:18:51 +0100 Subject: Rosetta One Point Zero In-Reply-To: <200504250919.55507.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <20050425045259.GA11764@sourdust.home.puzzling.org> <200504250919.55507.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: Sean Wheller writes: {cut} Thanks Sean for doing this, I don't think there is anything I can add. As i posted on the list previously, the place where I summarised my discussions with Carlos is http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n/. If I can help any further, just post more questions or leave a message in irc. Matt From matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com Mon Apr 25 09:38:22 2005 From: matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com (matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:38:22 +0100 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: <200504250937.12255.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> <426C9974.6060201@skynet.be> <200504250937.12255.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: >> For this moment, we work on the wiki french page, so we don't use >> Rossetta (for this time). > > Sure. My issue here was not so much about the use of Rosetta. Rather I am > concerned about all the different efforts on documentation. I think it is > better to focus on developing documents for Ubuntu/Kubuntu in English in a > single repository. In the English team, we have a hard time getting writers. > I expect it is the same for other languages. By grouping and focusing on a > single target and then relying on the translation process I think we can have > a greater impact. I think this is a difficult argument: what is happening is that the French team and other teams are doing lots of translation work on the wiki (check out FrenchDocumentation and ItalianDocumentation for examples) as well as writing some of their own documentation. I think that this translation is to be encourages, as not everything from the wiki (in fact hardly any of it) makes it into our documentation. I agree that the translation of documentation team stuff via Rosetta is important, but if you want to argue that people should be focusing on a single target, I think that implies limiting English contributions to the wiki as well! I suppose this discussion is caught up with the question of getting a single source for documentation. Ideally that will happen, but for now I don't think we should discourage activity and translation of the wiki itself. The approach of the Italian community is to put effort into translating both the wiki and the Docteam documentation in Rosetta. > I realize that writers authoring in other languages may feel that their > English is not good enough and may even feel shy to contribute their docs in > English, but I think the English team is sensitive and understanding of this > and will support such authors by providing editing services on their work. Absolutely. +1+1 From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 09:30:30 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:30:30 +0200 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> <200504250937.12255.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <200504251130.30721.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 11:38, matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com wrote: > as > writing some of their own documentation It's just this part that I would like focused in a single point. :-) -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com Mon Apr 25 09:49:07 2005 From: matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com (matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:49:07 +0100 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: <200504251130.30721.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> <200504250937.12255.sean@inwords.co.za> <200504251130.30721.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: Sean Wheller writes: > On Monday 25 April 2005 11:38, matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com wrote: >> as >> writing some of their own documentation > > It's just this part that I would like focused in a single point. :-) Yes I see that is fair enough. In fact yesterday I came across a user in #ubuntu-it who asked if a document could be translated into English: I think the problem sometimes is that people might not speak English. The important thing is that the relevant teams can coordinate translation of any non-English documents into English. However one does occasionally get documentation which is only useful in one language, such as documents which concentrate on a particulary popular ISP or something. In this case an obvious exception can be made. Matt From ubuntu at trickie.org Mon Apr 25 10:55:10 2005 From: ubuntu at trickie.org (Nick Loeve) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:55:10 +1000 Subject: gotta go... Message-ID: <426CCC8E.6080907@trickie.org> Hello everyone, It has been really good to help out on the doc team, but unfortunately i will not have much time to spare in the near future. I am hoping that maybe in a couple of months i can begin contributing again, but until then good luck and have fun! Cheers trickie (Nick Loeve) From matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com Mon Apr 25 14:01:07 2005 From: matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com (matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:01:07 +0100 Subject: new wiki faq Message-ID: Hi all, Just noticed this page appear on the Ubuntu wiki: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuHowCome. Yes, its yet another faq-ish guide. I'm slightly depressed at the number of different entirely independent resources are appearing around the place: because it means that it is going to be a real job merging them all into a structure that will be most useful for users. At the same time, I suppose the more information there is, the better the end product will be! If anyone can think of a way to incorporate this page into our ideas for the structure of the UserDocumentation on the wiki, please do it! Matt -- Make Poverty History: http://www.makepovertyhistory.org From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 14:15:26 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:15:26 +0200 Subject: new wiki faq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504251615.29629.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 16:01, matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com wrote: > slightly depressed at the number of different entirely > independent resources are appearing around the place Which is why I am pushing for single point of contact and control in such issues, namely the Ubuntu Documentation Team. Not only is it a nightmare to merge, but it is a nighmare to update as releases are made. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 14:17:06 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:17:06 +0200 Subject: gotta go... In-Reply-To: <426CCC8E.6080907@trickie.org> References: <426CCC8E.6080907@trickie.org> Message-ID: <200504251617.07102.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 12:55, Nick Loeve wrote: > It has been really good to help out on the doc team, but unfortunately i > ?will not have much time to spare in the near future. I am hoping that > maybe in a couple of months i can begin contributing again, but until > then good luck and have fun! Nick, Thanks from all of us at Ubuntu for the outsanding help you have given us during Hoary. Your contributions will be missed. We dearly hope that you will be able to join us again in the not to distant future. Thanks again, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From corey.burger at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 15:14:54 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:14:54 -0700 Subject: new wiki faq In-Reply-To: <200504251615.29629.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504251615.29629.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <348bd6da050425081438ade01d@mail.gmail.com> On 4/25/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Monday 25 April 2005 16:01, matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com wrote: > > slightly depressed at the number of different entirely > > independent resources are appearing around the place > > Which is why I am pushing for single point of contact and control in such > issues, namely the Ubuntu Documentation Team. Not only is it a nightmare to > merge, but it is a nighmare to update as releases are made. > -- > Sean Wheller > Technical Author > sean at inwords.co.za > http://www.inwords.co.za > Registered Linux User #375355 I had a conversation with the author of said document last night on #ubuntu-doc. We discussing him joining the team and duplication of effort. See the log, or if it is gone, I can provide it. Corey > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > > > > From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 16:12:28 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:12:28 +0200 Subject: information you may be able to reuse In-Reply-To: <1114441529.6750.2.camel@goomba.com> References: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> <200504250922.19751.sean@inwords.co.za> <1114441529.6750.2.camel@goomba.com> Message-ID: <200504251812.31418.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 17:05, Henry Meyerding wrote: > Enclosed please find the version of the document you requested. I agree > to release this document to you to incorporate into the general > documentation for the ubuntu release. I will take this as your way of saying that you agree to release the document under terms of the GFDL and CC-BY-SA 2.0 Licenses employed by the Ubuntu Document Project. :-) > > Just out of curiosity, what do you do to port this to XML? OOo docs are actually XML in compressed format. I make some changes to your doc and then use ooo2db to transform OOo XML to Docbook XML. > > Let me know if above release is sufficient or whether you need specific > wording. Providing your intention is as described above, the wording is fine. Thanks once again. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Mon Apr 25 16:14:06 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:14:06 +0200 Subject: new wiki faq In-Reply-To: <348bd6da050425081438ade01d@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504251615.29629.sean@inwords.co.za> <348bd6da050425081438ade01d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504251814.06592.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 17:14, Corey Burger wrote: > I had a conversation with the author of said document last night on > #ubuntu-doc. We discussing him joining the team and duplication of > effort. See the log, or if it is gone, I can provide it. Perhaps you can summarize the discussion. I tried the log but could not make head nor tails of what you guys were saying. :-) -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From simon at joyful.com Tue Apr 26 22:17:36 2005 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:17:36 -0700 Subject: Hi, I would like to help! In-Reply-To: <20050418023822.GM29529@home.puzzling.org> References: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> <42631CFB.9040700@gmail.com> <20050418023822.GM29529@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: Mary Gardiner wrote: > No, there hasn't been a need perceived for them to occur very frequently > yet. And I think everyone's afraid of the "but why do *I* have to get up > at 0300 every single week?" argument that would happen on the way to > setting a regular time :) Another community that I know of schedules meetings on a fixed interval, I think it's every 100 hours. This seems to work reasonably well in that it displeases everyone about equally. :) And it's predictable. Eg "The next seven parties are scheduled for 17:00 (05:00 PM) GMT Monday April 25, 2005 21:00 (09:00 PM) GMT Friday April 29, 2005 01:00 (01:00 AM) GMT Wednesday May 04, 2005 05:00 (05:00 AM) GMT Sunday May 08, 2005 09:00 (09:00 AM) GMT Thursday May 12, 2005 13:00 (01:00 PM) GMT Monday May 16, 2005 17:00 (05:00 PM) GMT Friday May 20, 2005" Cheers -Simon From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Tue Apr 26 22:27:29 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:27:29 +1000 Subject: Hi, I would like to help! In-Reply-To: References: <4261CEBB.4040007@gmail.com> <42631CFB.9040700@gmail.com> <20050418023822.GM29529@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <20050426222729.GA16517@home.puzzling.org> On Tue, Apr 26, 2005, Simon Michael wrote: > Another community that I know of schedules meetings on a fixed interval, > I think it's every 100 hours. This seems to work reasonably well in that > it displeases everyone about equally. :) And it's predictable. Eg Well, I will try to come up with a proposal if there is demand for a regular meeting. I think the frequency would be more like "every fortnight" than "every 100 hours" though. -Mary From jeffschering at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 06:07:30 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:07:30 -0700 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu nomenclature proposal Message-ID: Hi Well here is what I propose for the use of Ubuntu terms in our docs. Before making the proposal I did the following: I read up on the debate between "GNU/Linux" and "Linux"; I reviewed the Ubuntu and Debian websites; and I read carefully the feedback given on the list thread "Style Guide: How to Refer to Ubuntu." Remember, this is just a proposal. If you have any objections, say so and give a reason for your objection, and if possible, an alternative. This is going to be an iterative process. Here it is: ----------------------------------- 1. In titles and headings: a) Use "Ubuntu Operating System", or "Ubuntu". b) You can use "Ubuntu Linux Distribution" or "Ubuntu Linux Distro," but try to reserve those terms for audiences who do not need to have "distribution" or "distro" explained to them. 2. In the document body text: a) Use "Ubuntu Operating System" the first time you refer to Ubuntu, then use "Ubuntu" thereafter. b) Use "... based on Debian GNU/Linux..." when referring to Ubuntu's Debian roots. c) Use "... Linux-based..." when referring to Ubuntu's kernel roots. d) You may find that you must use the term "Ubuntu Linux". If so, then try to work in the phrase "based on Debian GNU/Linux". e) You can use "Ubuntu Linux Distribution" or "Ubuntu Linux Distro," but try to reserve those terms for audiences who do not need to have "distribution" or "distro" explained to them. f) If you use any of these terms, (Debian, GNU/Linux, Linux, distribution, distro) you must explain them in the text following their first use, as well as in the glossary (if there is a glossary). The only exception is when the audience of the document is already knowledgeable about the terms Debian, GNU/Linux, Linux, distribution, and distro. 3. In the document's "About Ubuntu" section: a) If there is an About Ubuntu section in your document, then describe Ubuntu and its genealogy, including GNU/Linux, Debian, and the Linux kernel. ----------------------------------- If you can think of any situations not covered by the above rules, or if anything needs clarification or could be better written, then let me know. Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Wed Apr 27 06:21:35 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:21:35 +1000 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu nomenclature proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050427062135.GI16517@home.puzzling.org> I'm generally +1 on this proposal. On Tue, Apr 26, 2005, Jeff Schering wrote: > 1. In titles and headings: > > a) Use "Ubuntu Operating System", or "Ubuntu". I think "Ubuntu" is to be vastly preferred over "Ubuntu Operating System". It's an operating system combined with a desktop environment (like most other desktop OSs these days) and a large number of applications. I would prefer the terms "Ubuntu system" or "Ubuntu envrionment" (depending on what you're talking about) to "Ubuntu Operating System." I'm sure there are times when "Ubuntu Operating System" is closest to what you want to convey, but I don't think those times are so frequent that they merit inclusion in the #1 item in the style guide. I'm also not sure that "Operating System" should be capitalised when it is used. The name Canonical has chosen does seem to definitely be "Ubuntu". Thanks to trademark practice (I have no idea what the trademark status of "Ubuntu" is, but I don't think it really matters for our purposes anyway), the normal way to treat product names is as a capitalised adjective followed by a lower case noun, eg "Kleenex toilet tissues" rather than "Kleenex Toilet Tissues", "Ubuntu operating system" rather than "Ubuntu Operating System". > b) You can use "Ubuntu Linux Distribution" or "Ubuntu Linux Distro," > but try to reserve those terms for audiences who do not need to have > "distribution" or "distro" explained to them. I'd tend to always recommend "distribution" over "distro", because the latter seems like techie slang to me. And techies will cope just fine if we use the word "distribution". Again, I don't think "Distribution" or "Distro" should be capitalised. > 2. In the document body text: > > a) Use "Ubuntu Operating System" the first time you refer to Ubuntu, > then use "Ubuntu" thereafter. See above for my position on this, I'd prefer "Ubuntu install", "Ubuntu copy" (for physical copies of Ubuntu, eg on CD), "Ubuntu system" or "Ubuntu environment" as appropriate. > e) You can use "Ubuntu Linux Distribution" or "Ubuntu Linux Distro," > but try to reserve those terms for audiences who do not need to have > "distribution" or "distro" explained to them. Again, see above for capitalisation concerns. > f) If you use any of these terms, (Debian, GNU/Linux, Linux, > distribution, distro) you must explain them in the text following > their first use, as well as in the glossary (if there is a glossary). > The only exception is when the audience of the document is already > knowledgeable about the terms Debian, GNU/Linux, Linux, distribution, > and distro. An exception for hyperlinked documents could perhaps be made here by giving a link to a glossary as an alternative to in-line explanation? -Mary From Ralph.Stoos at xerox.com Mon Apr 25 13:01:45 2005 From: Ralph.Stoos at xerox.com (Stoos, Ralph) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:01:45 -0400 Subject: Me Message-ID: To whom it may concern, I have just entered my home e-mail address to the Ubuntu documentation list. My experience with documentation and training is broad. An added skill is that I have had training in writing documentation that is to be translated. I also have significant experience in networking and Linux in general. I would definitely like to lend some of my time to further the cause of Linux in general and Ubuntu in particular. At this point, Ubuntu has replaced all the other Linux on my computers at home. It is very impressive that Ubuntu has shot up to the #1 distro on DistroWatch.com in a very short time. Congratulations on an excellent distro. Anxious to help make it better/easier. Sadly, I am not a programmer but, I bet there are many programmers that can't write documentation. Help is help no matter what form it takes. Thanks for consideration, Ralph H. Stoos Jr. System Engineer Xerox Corporation Rochester, New York -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From olivier.staquet at skynet.be Mon Apr 25 07:06:54 2005 From: olivier.staquet at skynet.be (Olivier Staquet) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:06:54 +0200 Subject: Discussion not in English? (Re: Ubuntu-doc and french users) In-Reply-To: <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <4264B55E.9020600@skynet.be> <20050425055232.GA10373@home.puzzling.org> <200504250850.14530.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <426C970E.2050304@skynet.be> Sean Wheller a ?crit : > On Monday 25 April 2005 07:52, Mary Gardiner wrote: > > > >The below is a mail sent to the administrators. What do people here > >think is the best approach for discussion in several languages? Should > >we have it all on the one list (with Mailman topics so that you can > >elect not to receive some messages)? > > > > > > Personally, I have no problem with it. But this will increase the list volume. > Some of our English writers speak French and other languages. Having one list > would be good. > > Extension to this though is that I would like to see all doc contributors > commit in English to the Doc Project and having translations done in process > via Rossetta. If everyone could just focus on a single point it would do > wonders. > > An idea is that the other languages writers write a summary in English of their post. This technique can create other ideas for other language. For this moment, we work on the wiki french page, so we don't use Rossetta (for this time). From troywill1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 07:19:45 2005 From: troywill1 at gmail.com (Troy Williams) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 02:19:45 -0500 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu nomenclature proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114586385.20448.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-26 at 23:07 -0700, Jeff Schering wrote: > Hi > > Well here is what I propose for the use of Ubuntu terms in our docs. > Before making the proposal I did the following: I read up on the > debate between "GNU/Linux" and "Linux"; I reviewed the Ubuntu and > Debian websites; and I read carefully the feedback given on the list > thread "Style Guide: How to Refer to Ubuntu." > > Remember, this is just a proposal. If you have any objections, say so > and give a reason for your objection, and if possible, an alternative. > This is going to be an iterative process. > > Here it is: > ----------------------------------- > > 1. In titles and headings: > > a) Use "Ubuntu Operating System", or "Ubuntu". > > b) You can use "Ubuntu Linux Distribution" or "Ubuntu Linux Distro," > but try to reserve those terms for audiences who do not need to have > "distribution" or "distro" explained to them. > > 2. In the document body text: > > a) Use "Ubuntu Operating System" the first time you refer to Ubuntu, > then use "Ubuntu" thereafter. > > b) Use "... based on Debian GNU/Linux..." when referring to Ubuntu's > Debian roots. > > c) Use "... Linux-based..." when referring to Ubuntu's kernel roots. > > d) You may find that you must use the term "Ubuntu Linux". If so, then > try to work in the phrase "based on Debian GNU/Linux". > > e) You can use "Ubuntu Linux Distribution" or "Ubuntu Linux Distro," > but try to reserve those terms for audiences who do not need to have > "distribution" or "distro" explained to them. > > f) If you use any of these terms, (Debian, GNU/Linux, Linux, > distribution, distro) you must explain them in the text following > their first use, as well as in the glossary (if there is a glossary). > The only exception is when the audience of the document is already > knowledgeable about the terms Debian, GNU/Linux, Linux, distribution, > and distro. > > 3. In the document's "About Ubuntu" section: > > a) If there is an About Ubuntu section in your document, then describe > Ubuntu and its genealogy, including GNU/Linux, Debian, and the Linux > kernel. > > ----------------------------------- > > If you can think of any situations not covered by the above rules, or > if anything needs clarification or could be better written, then let > me know. > > Cheers, > Jeff > > -- > GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering > +1; well stated. Troy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeffschering at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 07:34:08 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:34:08 -0700 Subject: Me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/25/05, Stoos, Ralph wrote: > > > To whom it may concern, > > I have just entered my home e-mail address to the Ubuntu documentation > list. > > My experience with documentation and training is broad. An added skill is > that I have had training in writing documentation that is to be translated. > I also have significant experience in networking and Linux in general. > Hi Ralph Welcome aboard! You'll find that we are a small team, and that we are still in the early stages of organization. Our wiki is somewhat haphazard. (Which is to be expected, I suppose. After all, it is a wiki!) We are at the start of a new release cycle, plus the Ubuntu Down Under conferance is on now, so not much is being done on the docs at the moment. I am working on a style guide, and your training in writing for translation will come in handy. See http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StyleGuideDiscussion. Feel free to modify the page and contribute as much as you can. Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 27 07:30:44 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:30:44 +0200 Subject: Me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504270930.47985.sean@inwords.co.za> On Monday 25 April 2005 15:01, Stoos, Ralph wrote: > I have just entered my home e-mail address to the Ubuntu documentation > list. > > My experience with documentation and training is broad.? An added skill? > is that I have? had training in writing documentation that is to be > translated.? I also have significant experience in networking and Linux in > general. > > I would definitely like to lend some of my time to further the cause of > Linux in general and Ubuntu in particular.? At this point, Ubuntu has > replaced all the other Linux on my computers at home.? It is very > impressive that Ubuntu has shot up to the #1 distro on DistroWatch.com in a > very short time. > > Congratulations on an excellent distro.? Anxious to help make it > better/easier.? Sadly, I am not a programmer but, I bet there are many > programmers that can't write documentation.? Help is help no matter what > form it takes. > > Thanks for consideration, > Hello Ralph, You are most welcome. There are a few of us on the list who come from technical writing backgrounds so one more is fantastic! At present everyone is at the Ubuntu Down Under conference, and we are just after release, so there is not much going on. However that doe snot mean there is nothing to do. We colloborate in a Subversion Repository. The storage format in the in Subversion is Docbook XML. I am assuming that you have found this page http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam . Everyting about the team and what we are doing is available from here. Again, a warm welcome and don't be shy. If you have questions just ask. I will support you in getting started if you needed. You can find me on list of on the irc channel #ubuntu-doc "froud" is my nick. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 27 07:41:24 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:41:24 +0200 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu nomenclature proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504270941.30763.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 27 April 2005 08:07, Jeff Schering wrote: > Remember, this is just a proposal. If you have any objections, say so > and give a reason for your objection, and if possible, an alternative. > This is going to be an iterative process. Sounds good and Mary's capitalization concerns. Not going to get into the term debate to heavily with regards to personal likes and dislikes. I think that we need to takes Jeff's "most excellent" work and build on that. Adapting and growing as we encounter things. I would however like there to be some ground references to works such as Chicago Manual of Style, Sun Manual of Style. Bibliography would be good. Great work Jeff. Thanks -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From corey.burger at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 09:08:27 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 02:08:27 -0700 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu nomenclature proposal In-Reply-To: <200504270941.30763.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <200504270941.30763.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <348bd6da05042702087cfd3abc@mail.gmail.com> On 4/27/05, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Wednesday 27 April 2005 08:07, Jeff Schering wrote: > > Remember, this is just a proposal. If you have any objections, say so > > and give a reason for your objection, and if possible, an alternative. > > This is going to be an iterative process. > > Sounds good and Mary's capitalization concerns. Not going to get into the term > debate to heavily with regards to personal likes and dislikes. I think that > we need to takes Jeff's "most excellent" work and build on that. Adapting and > growing as we encounter things. > > I would however like there to be some ground references to works such as > Chicago Manual of Style, Sun Manual of Style. Bibliography would be good. > > Great work Jeff. Thanks > -- > Sean Wheller > Technical Author > sean at inwords.co.za > 084-854-9408 > http://www.inwords.co.za > Registered Linux User #375355 > +1 to this. We get to sidestep the religous holy war (hopefully) Corey From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 27 09:00:00 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:00:00 +0200 Subject: information you may be able to reuse In-Reply-To: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> References: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> Message-ID: <200504271100.03851.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 09:00, Henry Meyerding wrote: > When I figured out how to make my ubuntu box connect to the local ISP > via dialup, I wrote their tech support people a howto. I know it's not > in docbook, but maybe you can reuse some of it. ?I am enclosing the pdf. > Let me know if you'd prefer the sxw. Hello Team, This is to let you know that I have tranformed Henry Meyerding's Dialup Howto from OOo format to DB XML. The document is now in trunk/generic/dialup/ I have done only what is required for this document to be a valid and well-formed document within the framework. The document semantics will need cleanup since ooo2dbk does not do an exact conversion. Anyone willing to cleanup and do a better semantic markup job is welcome. Thanks again to Henry Meyerding for his most generous contribution and agreeing to release his work under the terms of our documentation licenses. Enjoy, -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com Wed Apr 27 10:28:29 2005 From: matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com (matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:28:29 +0100 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu nomenclature proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jeff Schering writes: {snip} +1. Like it. Will we build some kind of style control into our freeze timetable, or just do it as we go along? Matt From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 27 10:35:59 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:35:59 +0200 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu nomenclature proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504271235.59787.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 27 April 2005 12:28, matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com wrote: > +1. Like it. Will we build some kind of style control into our freeze > timetable, or just do it as we go along? Try to adhere as we go along. But the style guide just adds a source for avoiding disputes and should remain the definitive answer in scenarios concerning personal taste and agreed project acceptability. -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jjesse at iserv.net Wed Apr 27 19:14:02 2005 From: jjesse at iserv.net (Jonathan Jesse) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Changes to kquickquide Message-ID: <47610.206.114.48.34.1114629242.squirrel@206.114.48.34> I made some minor changes to kquickguide as I'm trying to get my feet wet. Removed all instances of kwickguide and also worked on adding some things to the login section of the kquickguide. Comments/rejections please -- Jonathan Jesse -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kquickguide.xml.diff Type: text/x-patch Size: 3424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sean at inwords.co.za Wed Apr 27 19:09:39 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:09:39 +0200 Subject: Changes to kquickquide In-Reply-To: <47610.206.114.48.34.1114629242.squirrel@206.114.48.34> References: <47610.206.114.48.34.1114629242.squirrel@206.114.48.34> Message-ID: <200504272109.40087.sean@inwords.co.za> On Wednesday 27 April 2005 21:14, Jonathan Jesse wrote: > I made some minor changes to kquickguide as I'm trying to get my feet wet. > ?Removed all instances of kwickguide and also worked on adding some things > to the login section of the kquickguide. ?Comments/rejections please Applied. Thanks -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Ralph.Stoos at xerox.com Mon Apr 25 13:06:35 2005 From: Ralph.Stoos at xerox.com (Stoos, Ralph) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:06:35 -0400 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: subscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hwm at goomba.com Mon Apr 25 15:05:29 2005 From: hwm at goomba.com (Henry Meyerding) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:05:29 -0700 Subject: information you may be able to reuse In-Reply-To: <200504250922.19751.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> <200504250922.19751.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: <1114441529.6750.2.camel@goomba.com> Enclosed please find the version of the document you requested. I agree to release this document to you to incorporate into the general documentation for the ubuntu release. Just out of curiosity, what do you do to port this to XML? Let me know if above release is sufficient or whether you need specific wording. Thanks, On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 00:22, Sean Wheller wrote: > On Wednesday 20 April 2005 09:00, Henry Meyerding wrote: > > When I figured out how to make my ubuntu box connect to the local ISP > > via dialup, I wrote their tech support people a howto. I know it's not > > in docbook, but maybe you can reuse some of it. I am enclosing the pdf. > > Let me know if you'd prefer the sxw. > > Thanks very much. Please send me the sxw off list. I will port it to XML and > commit it for you. -- Henry Meyerding hwm at goomba.com 360-793-1564 360-665-0730 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dialup_instructions2.sxw Type: application/vnd.sun.xml.writer Size: 120596 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgotangco at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 23:02:39 2005 From: jgotangco at gmail.com (Jerome Gotangco) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:02:39 +1000 Subject: information you may be able to reuse In-Reply-To: <200504251812.31418.sean@inwords.co.za> References: <1113980450.5404.10.camel@goomba.com> <200504250922.19751.sean@inwords.co.za> <1114441529.6750.2.camel@goomba.com> <200504251812.31418.sean@inwords.co.za> Message-ID: OK this will come in handy because I got assigned to a dial-up BOF here at UDU. Many thanks, Jerome -- Jerome S. Gotangco GPG: A97B69A0 @ pgp.mit.edu IRC: jsgotangco @ freenode #ubuntu, #ubuntu-doc, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-ph From corey.burger at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 13:53:33 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:53:33 -0700 Subject: Freezes Message-ID: <348bd6da0504280653375a5038@mail.gmail.com> I was looking at the UDU wiki and I came across this page: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseCycle Which says the following things: # Institute string freezes After consultation with some Ubuntu translators, we will institute a string freeze, to coincide with preview freeze (T-5 weeks). At this point, no translatable strings outside documentation may change without prior confirmation, and any exceptions must be communicated to translators. This should allow translators time to finish their work before the final release. Since documentation needs to be updated to cope with code changes, we need to allow it a little more time to come up to date, but it nevertheless needs to be translated. We will institute a documentation string freeze, to coincide with the preview release (T-4 weeks). At this point, no translatable strings in the documentation may change without prior confirmation, and any exceptions must be communicated to translators. Translations for the installer and other packages not covered by language packs (e.g. openoffice.org) must be complete by T-2 weeks. Translations for packages covered by language packs must be complete by T-1 week if they are to be included in the final release; failing that, they will be included in post-release updates. # Institute UI freeze Documenters need to have a stable user interface against which to write end-user documentation. To allow for this, we will institute a user interface freeze, one week before preview freeze (T-6 weeks), which by the GNOME 2.10 schedule would have been one week after the GNOME UI freeze. At this point, changes affecting the system's user interface require prior confirmation, and any exceptions must be communicated to translators. Assuming that documentation has been kept reasonably up to date with major changes throughout the cycle, this allows two weeks for further updates before the documentation string freeze. ------ Corey From rstoos at rochester.rr.com Thu Apr 28 20:53:46 2005 From: rstoos at rochester.rr.com (Ralph H. Stoos Jr.) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:53:46 -0400 Subject: Possible? Message-ID: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> All, Would it be possible to have the prefix "ubuntu-doc" be put on the Subject line in mail notes to the list? This would help me and I am sure most everyone else quickly identify where the mail is from and also organize it quickly. I do get a bunch of mail (a lot of junk for the most part). Just a thought. Also, I looked at the outline for the documentation and saw one thing that might be helpful. In all the books I write, I place a section called "Conventions Used In This Book" which shows examples of bolded, italicized text, and graphics such as notes; and describes what they indicate. It may already be in their somewhere but, if not, I have been told it helps. This section is usually contained under a heading of "Before You Start" which seems to get people to believe if they don't read it there will be adverse effects. My .02USD for today. Regards, Ralph From matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com Thu Apr 28 21:09:42 2005 From: matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com (Matthew east) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:09:42 +0100 Subject: Possible? In-Reply-To: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> References: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <1114722583.6516.3.camel@localhost.mdke> > Would it be possible to have the prefix "ubuntu-doc" be put on the > Subject line in mail notes to the list? This would help me and I am > sure most everyone else quickly identify where the mail is from and also > organize it quickly. I do get a bunch of mail (a lot of junk for the > most part). Maybe what you suggest will be possible, but maybe your problem might also be resolved by applying a mail-filter? most clients will do it (evolution is fairly easy to set up), and even most web-based email providers (yahoo etc) will do it. Basically you set it up to put certain emails into certain folders automatically upon arrival. Its very useful for organising email! > Also, I looked at the outline for the documentation and saw one thing > that might be helpful. In all the books I write, I place a section > called "Conventions Used In This Book" which shows examples of bolded, > italicized text, and graphics such as notes; and describes what they > indicate. It may already be in their somewhere but, if not, I have been > told it helps. Yes I agree. It is a good idea, I don't know if something of this sort is implemented already? > My .02USD for today. .02 Euro cents from here Matt From jalrnc at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 21:13:10 2005 From: jalrnc at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Cruz?=) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:13:10 -0400 Subject: Possible? In-Reply-To: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> References: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <8e6ff2e305042814134015d268@mail.gmail.com> Can you use filters for incoming email? They work pretty well for me, and all ubuntu-doc messages go directly into their dedicated folder. One advantage of filters over the prefix is that no visible space is taken in the subject line. Jo?o On 4/28/05, Ralph H. Stoos Jr. wrote: > > All, > > Would it be possible to have the prefix "ubuntu-doc" be put on the > Subject line in mail notes to the list? This would help me and I am > sure most everyone else quickly identify where the mail is from and also > organize it quickly. I do get a bunch of mail (a lot of junk for the > most part). > > Just a thought. > > Also, I looked at the outline for the documentation and saw one thing > that might be helpful. In all the books I write, I place a section > called "Conventions Used In This Book" which shows examples of bolded, > italicized text, and graphics such as notes; and describes what they > indicate. It may already be in their somewhere but, if not, I have been > told it helps. > > This section is usually contained under a heading of "Before You Start" > which seems to get people to believe if they don't read it there will be > adverse effects. > > My .02USD for today. > > Regards, > > Ralph > > -- > ubuntu-doc mailing list > ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com > http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rossmayopublic at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 21:47:33 2005 From: rossmayopublic at gmail.com (Ross Mayo) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:47:33 -0400 Subject: [Ubuntu-doc] Re: Possible? In-Reply-To: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> References: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <1114724853.8439.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> I filter my lists on the To: line which is always 'ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com' :) Hope that helps! thegreedyturtle On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 16:53 -0400, Ralph H. Stoos Jr. wrote: > All, > > Would it be possible to have the prefix "ubuntu-doc" be put on the > Subject line in mail notes to the list? This would help me and I am > sure most everyone else quickly identify where the mail is from and also > organize it quickly. I do get a bunch of mail (a lot of junk for the > most part). > > Just a thought. > > Also, I looked at the outline for the documentation and saw one thing > that might be helpful. In all the books I write, I place a section > called "Conventions Used In This Book" which shows examples of bolded, > italicized text, and graphics such as notes; and describes what they > indicate. It may already be in their somewhere but, if not, I have been > told it helps. > > This section is usually contained under a heading of "Before You Start" > which seems to get people to believe if they don't read it there will be > adverse effects. > > My .02USD for today. > > Regards, > > Ralph > From themuso at themuso.com Thu Apr 28 23:42:59 2005 From: themuso at themuso.com (Luke Yelavich) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:42:59 +1000 Subject: [Ubuntu-doc] Re: Possible? In-Reply-To: <1114724853.8439.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> <1114724853.8439.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050428234259.GA22991@luke-laptop.yelavich.home> On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 07:47:33AM EST, Ross Mayo wrote: > I filter my lists on the To: line which is always > 'ubuntu-doc at lists.ubuntu.com' :) Hope that helps! I have found that it is better to filter the list with the List-Id header, as I use procmail for filtering. This means that I don't have to worry about possible uppercase letters in the address which would cause the filter to fail. -- Luke Get my public GPG key here: http://www.themuso.com/themuso-gpg-key.txt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 28 23:48:08 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:48:08 +1000 Subject: List tag in Subject (Re: Possible?) In-Reply-To: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> References: <42714D5A.3090908@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050428234808.GA2602@home.puzzling.org> On Thu, Apr 28, 2005, Ralph H. Stoos Jr. wrote: > All, > > Would it be possible to have the prefix "ubuntu-doc" be put on the > Subject line in mail notes to the list? This would help me and I am > sure most everyone else quickly identify where the mail is from and also > organize it quickly. I do get a bunch of mail (a lot of junk for the > most part). As others have said, yes it's possible, but there are other ways to filter, including a number of headers (To|Cc, List-Id, X-BeenThere). Therefore I won't implement this at this stage, I'd need to see additional arguments about why it's needed (common mail clients with bad filtering etc). -Mary From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Thu Apr 28 23:59:19 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:59:19 +1000 Subject: Ubuntu doc imports spec Message-ID: <20050428235919.GB2602@home.puzzling.org> For people interested in translation workflow: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDocImports Is anyone already familiar with this spec? The launchpad wiki is passworded. -Mary From matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com Fri Apr 29 00:20:30 2005 From: matthew.east.ubuntu at breathe.com (Matthew east) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:20:30 +0100 Subject: Ubuntu doc imports spec In-Reply-To: <20050428235919.GB2602@home.puzzling.org> References: <20050428235919.GB2602@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <1114734030.8391.8.camel@localhost.mdke> Am cc:ing Carlos On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 09:59 +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote: > For people interested in translation workflow: > http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDocImports > > Is anyone already familiar with this spec? The launchpad wiki is > passworded. I have no clue if anything has been discussed at UDU for this process: the current system is that described on http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n Essentially what happens is that any .pot files in uploaded packages are imported into the relevant section of launchpad (at the moment only hoary exists). This is automated. We had some problems with the imported documents (2 copies of our docs appeared), which Carlos fixed manually. I believe there are also some problems with importing: Rosetta will only import .pot files if there is no more than one in a directory, so for example our common/ stuff didn't get imported. Otherwise, I'm not away of any issues re: importing. Re: exporting: A script (helpfully provided by one of the Rosetta users, and slightly modified) can be used to check on the status of translations in Rosetta and download em if finished (so far no new copies of anything are available). Its in teamstuff/. We then download em by hand and commit them to the relevant tree in our repository. There is some suggestion that the documents might be incorporated into language-packs, so far the guy who deals mostly with these has said that it may be difficult, but this should probably be the ultimate aim. In this case, there may be a way to automate the process of exporting and packaging. We'll have to see. Hope this helps, but in general that wiki page is the main reference. Lemme know if it is unclear. Matt From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Fri Apr 29 00:27:05 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:27:05 +1000 Subject: Ubuntu doc imports spec In-Reply-To: <1114734030.8391.8.camel@localhost.mdke> References: <20050428235919.GB2602@home.puzzling.org> <1114734030.8391.8.camel@localhost.mdke> Message-ID: <20050429002705.GA2964@home.puzzling.org> On Fri, Apr 29, 2005, Matthew east wrote: > I have no clue if anything has been discussed at UDU for this process: > the current system is that described on > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n It doesn't look from the UDU schedule like that BoF has been scheduled yet. However, it does seem to be awaiting scheduling, and so I expect that a spec will be developed. Whether we'll need to review it I don't know, but we can't if it's in the Launchpad wiki. -Mary From rstoos at rochester.rr.com Fri Apr 29 01:22:41 2005 From: rstoos at rochester.rr.com (Ralph H. Stoos Jr.) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:22:41 -0400 Subject: Thanks ro all that replied Message-ID: <42718C61.60201@rochester.rr.com> All, Thanks to everyone. In past I have always used filters to remove unwanted mail. I now have a filter to move it automagically to my ubuntu-doc folder. By the way, I use Thunderbird for my mail. since I copy it around to all my computers, this format makes it easier. Thanks again, Ralph H. Stoos Jr. From carlos.perello at canonical.com Fri Apr 29 01:38:36 2005 From: carlos.perello at canonical.com (Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Perell=F3_Mar=EDn?=) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:38:36 +1000 Subject: Ubuntu doc imports spec In-Reply-To: <20050429002705.GA2964@home.puzzling.org> References: <20050428235919.GB2602@home.puzzling.org> <1114734030.8391.8.camel@localhost.mdke> <20050429002705.GA2964@home.puzzling.org> Message-ID: <1114738716.10435.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 10:27 +1000, Mary Gardiner wrote: > On Fri, Apr 29, 2005, Matthew east wrote: > > I have no clue if anything has been discussed at UDU for this process: > > the current system is that described on > > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n > > It doesn't look from the UDU schedule like that BoF has been scheduled > yet. However, it does seem to be awaiting scheduling, and so I expect > that a spec will be developed. Whether we'll need to review it I don't > know, but we can't if it's in the Launchpad wiki. We don't have scheduled yet the specific BOF about documentation, but we have talked about it a bit in some of the other BOFs related to Rosetta, specially the http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LanguagePackRoadmap one, seems like we could integrate without too much pain the documentation updates like we do with language packs into Ubuntu. Cheers. > > -Mary -- Carlos Perell? Mar?n Ubuntu Hoary (PowerPC) => http://www.ubuntulinux.org mailto:carlos.perello at canonical.com http://carlos.pemas.net Valencia - Spain From robitaille at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 02:19:56 2005 From: robitaille at gmail.com (Daniel Robitaille) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:19:56 -0700 Subject: Ubuntu doc imports spec In-Reply-To: <1114738716.10435.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20050428235919.GB2602@home.puzzling.org> <1114734030.8391.8.camel@localhost.mdke> <20050429002705.GA2964@home.puzzling.org> <1114738716.10435.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114741197.9974.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-29-04 at 11:38 +1000, Carlos Perell? Mar?n wrote: > > > I have no clue if anything has been discussed at UDU for this process: > > > the current system is that described on > > > http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n > > > > It doesn't look from the UDU schedule like that BoF has been scheduled > > yet. However, it does seem to be awaiting scheduling, and so I expect > > that a spec will be developed. Whether we'll need to review it I don't > > know, but we can't if it's in the Launchpad wiki. > > We don't have scheduled yet the specific BOF about documentation, but we > have talked about it a bit in some of the other BOFs related to Rosetta, > specially the http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LanguagePackRoadmap one, seems > like we could integrate without too much pain the documentation updates > like we do with language packs into Ubuntu. Carlos, Do you know if the password protected sections on the launchpad's wiki simply there to limit some preliminary stuff to canonical people, of if you ask nicely you can gain access? I have been trying to follow the UDU in recent days from remote, and ran into quite a few of the unaccessible documents like the one about the Doc Import Mary refers to in her e-mail. I'm getting curious about their content :) Daniel -- Daniel Robitaille GPG: http://robitaille.fastmail.fm/pubkey.asc (0x5C19F466) IM Jabber: robitaille at jabber.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeffschering at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 19:42:14 2005 From: jeffschering at gmail.com (Jeff Schering) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:42:14 -0700 Subject: Style Guide: Ubuntu nomenclature proposal redux Message-ID: Hi I incorporated some of the suggestions and comments, and did some reorganization: -------------------------------------------------- 1. Use "Ubuntu operating system" the first time you refer to Ubuntu, then use "Ubuntu" thereafter. You can use the terms "Ubuntu system" and "Ubuntu environment" when they are more appropriate than "Ubuntu operating system." You can use "Ubuntu Linux distribution" or "Ubuntu Linux distro," but try to reserve those terms for audiences who do not need to have "distribution" or "distro" explained to them. You can use Kubuntu, Kubuntu system, Kubuntu environment, and Kubuntu distribution when referring to Ubuntu with the KDE desktop, but remember that it is still the Ubuntu operating system, not the Kubuntu operating system. 2. Use "... based on Debian GNU/Linux..." when referring to Ubuntu's Debian roots. 3. Use "... Linux-based..." when referring to Ubuntu's kernel roots. 4. You might find that you must use the term "Ubuntu Linux". If so, then try to work in the phrase "based on Debian GNU/Linux". 5. If you use any of these terms, (Debian, GNU/Linux, Linux, distribution, distro) you must explain them in the text following their first use, as well as in the glossary (if there is a glossary). The only exception is when the audience of the document is already knowledgeable about the terms. 6. If there is an About Ubuntu section in your document, then describe Ubuntu and its genealogy, including GNU/Linux, Debian, and the Linux kernel. ------------------------------------------------- Here are my replies to a couple of suggestions in the feedback, but not incorporated: An exception for hyperlinked documents could perhaps be made here by giving a link to a glossary as an alternative to in-line explanation? In general, when a term is introduced to an audience, the word is defined in-line, italicized, and a glossary entry is made (if there is a glossary). This is true even in hyperlinked documents because forcing the reader to a new page for a definition can be disruptive and distracting. Readers who already know the meaning of the term can easily skim over it. I would however like there to be some ground references to works such as Chicago Manual of Style, Sun Manual of Style. Bibliography would be good. Yes. I'll start another thread for this. Cheers, Jeff -- GPG Key: 1024D/F23C67E8 2005-02-20 Jeff Schering From carlos.perello at canonical.com Sat Apr 30 01:55:43 2005 From: carlos.perello at canonical.com (Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Perell=F3_Mar=EDn?=) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:55:43 +1000 Subject: Spec about Ubuntu Doc Imports into Rosetta Message-ID: <1114826143.5115.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, We had today the BOF session about Ubuntu Doc Imports into Rosetta. I put all the spec content but the implementation part at the public wiki: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDocImports It's not yet approved but I hope will be done soon, but please, send me any extra comment if I'm missing anything. Cheers. -- Carlos Perell? Mar?n Ubuntu Hoary (PowerPC) => http://www.ubuntulinux.org mailto:carlos.perello at canonical.com http://carlos.pemas.net Valencia - Spain From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Sat Apr 30 01:53:20 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:53:20 +1000 Subject: Spec about Ubuntu Doc Imports into Rosetta In-Reply-To: <1114826143.5115.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1114826143.5115.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050430015320.GB8992@home.puzzling.org> On Sat, Apr 30, 2005, Carlos Perell? Mar?n wrote: > It's not yet approved but I hope will be done soon, but please, send me > any extra comment if I'm missing anything. Thanks Carlos! -Mary From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 02:39:07 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:39:07 -0700 Subject: Ubuntu and Upstreams Message-ID: <348bd6da05042919398d6a5f6@mail.gmail.com> I was reading through the UDU wiki when I came across this page: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAndUpstreams which say (emphasis added) "Ubuntu can help expose upstream projects to new users, give them credit for their work, and generally raise awareness of their efforts. While we should avoid confusing "racing car" branding overload, we should credit upstreams in our DOCUMENTATION or user interfaces, documentation and websites - and let upstreams know we are doing it." Thoughts? (I am not speaking negatively, I just want to know where we want to go with this.) Corey From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:22:32 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:22:32 -0700 Subject: Sudo docs Message-ID: <348bd6da05042920225439e1eb@mail.gmail.com> More for our plate: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingSudo Corey From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:23:22 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:23:22 -0700 Subject: Plates are never full Message-ID: <348bd6da05042920233638f511@mail.gmail.com> This is locked, we might want to get someone on the launchpad team to be nice and let us in on this: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadHelp From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:25:17 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:25:17 -0700 Subject: We should probably start talking about this Message-ID: <348bd6da050429202535f88a14@mail.gmail.com> Educational ubuntu: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:27:50 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:27:50 -0700 Subject: I believe this page will make Sean happy Message-ID: <348bd6da0504292027441309f5@mail.gmail.com> More useful pages (and totally useless subject lines): http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuHelpCentre From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:33:10 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:33:10 -0700 Subject: The changes in list will need to be watched Message-ID: <348bd6da0504292033217db74b@mail.gmail.com> We should identify what the hackish things we are documenting for 2 purposes: 1. to identify to the devs what they are, in case they don't know 2. to watch them for when a non-hackish solution is implemented. This was sparked by this page: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CommandLineDisintegration From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:37:18 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:37:18 -0700 Subject: Displaying paragrahs of text on Rosetta/Launchpad ATTN:Carlos Message-ID: <348bd6da05042920377ff962e2@mail.gmail.com> As this has a great deal to do with us, we need to be in on day one. Carlos, can you throw open the relevant portions of this spec? http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/DisplayingParagraphsOfText From senectus at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:39:01 2005 From: senectus at gmail.com (Senectus .) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:39:01 +0800 Subject: Plates are never full In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05042920233638f511@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da05042920233638f511@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/30/05, Corey Burger wrote: > This is locked, we might want to get someone on the launchpad team to > be nice and let us in on this: > > http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadHelp > Can you explain what the term "Launchpad" means in this context? -- Ubuntu Hoary 5.04 Our OS who art in CPU, LINUX be thy name. Thy programs run, thy syscalls done, In kernel as it is in user! http://www.modmeup.net From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:41:51 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:41:51 -0700 Subject: Plates are never full In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da05042920233638f511@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <348bd6da0504292041697f7d8b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/29/05, Senectus . wrote: > On 4/30/05, Corey Burger wrote: > > This is locked, we might want to get someone on the launchpad team to > > be nice and let us in on this: > > > > http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadHelp > > > Can you explain what the term "Launchpad" means in this context? > Launchpad is a collection of tools by Canonical for a variety of things. The most important two for the docteam are Rosetta (an online translation tool) and Malone (a bug tracking tool) Corey From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:43:40 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:43:40 -0700 Subject: Installer changes Message-ID: <348bd6da050429204378f51180@mail.gmail.com> As very few of us install, we need to be very aware of these changes. These are approved spec (I assume that means they are going to do something like this). Should someone run through the installer once a month and a week before string freeze to see what is different? http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerSimpleResize http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallerStage2Progress Corey From mary-sounder at puzzling.org Sat Apr 30 03:46:14 2005 From: mary-sounder at puzzling.org (Mary Gardiner) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:46:14 +1000 Subject: Plates are never full In-Reply-To: References: <348bd6da05042920233638f511@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050430034614.GD8992@home.puzzling.org> On Sat, Apr 30, 2005, Senectus . wrote: > On 4/30/05, Corey Burger wrote: > > This is locked, we might want to get someone on the launchpad team to > > be nice and let us in on this: > > > > http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadHelp > > > Can you explain what the term "Launchpad" means in this context? Launchpad is a Canonical sponsored project. It has a few components: - Rosetta: a web based interface to make it easy for people to contribute translations to software. - Malone: a bug tracker capable of keeping track of different bug reports across different bugtracker installs (imagine the same Firefox bug reported to Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat and directly to the Mozilla bugtracker) - a bunch of tools which will eventually be used both to produce Ubuntu and to produce derivatives, and also a bunch of tools which are going to track upstream sources of FOSS projects Rosetta and Malone are already in public use, the distro tools not so much. All code is presently in-house and proprietry: there has apparently been occasional talk of opening it up and making it Free, but I am aware of no timeline for this. Even the specifications for it are at the moment in a password protected wiki. -Mary From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 03:59:08 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:59:08 -0700 Subject: CD writing howto Message-ID: <348bd6da0504292059168939a6@mail.gmail.com> A clear cd writing howto needs to be developed. For breezy, a program called serpentine is going to be shipped for burning audio cds: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/AudioCDBurning Corey From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 04:00:31 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:00:31 -0700 Subject: Breezy Audio Message-ID: <348bd6da05042921006d689a47@mail.gmail.com> This is one of the places where Ubuntu currently falls down. We need to cleanup the wikipage and plan for breezy. More spec at: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/AudioInfrastructure From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 04:01:58 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:01:58 -0700 Subject: The desktop is changing Message-ID: <348bd6da05042921013ecb408c@mail.gmail.com> Here is the spec and the contact person for the desktop look changing: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopArtwork Corey From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 04:05:01 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:05:01 -0700 Subject: Packing installation Message-ID: <348bd6da05042921053ab89c15@mail.gmail.com> As this comes together, we will need to track and give feedback on it: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/FindingPackages From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 04:06:38 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:06:38 -0700 Subject: Subtle nautilus changes Message-ID: <348bd6da05042921062b56c3e8@mail.gmail.com> The changes discussed here are subtle, but those are the ones that are going to trip us up. We should recommend that any changes that are made to nautilus, that the doc team get cc'ed on the change. I follow breezy-changes but I may very well miss it. http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/FileManagerImprovement Corey From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 04:09:16 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:09:16 -0700 Subject: Finally, we come to the fridge (no I am serious) Message-ID: <348bd6da050429210975eab30d@mail.gmail.com> We had better get our shnouts into this one: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/TheFridge Corey From mpt at myrealbox.com Sat Apr 30 04:09:55 2005 From: mpt at myrealbox.com (Matthew Thomas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:09:55 +1000 Subject: Plates are never full In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05042920233638f511@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da05042920233638f511@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <42730513.20902@myrealbox.com> Corey Burger wrote: > > This is locked, we might want to get someone on the launchpad team to > be nice and let us in on this: > > http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadHelp I'm the author of that spec, and it's (a) less than half-finished, and (b) extremely boring. Basically it's going to say "some of the text telling you how to use Launchpad will be integrated into Launchpad, and some of it will be tutorials on a wiki somewhere". When the spec is finished enough to have a summary, I'll put the summary on the UDU wiki, like I have with the other Launchpad at UDU specs I've touched. -- Matthew Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From mpt at myrealbox.com Sat Apr 30 04:19:42 2005 From: mpt at myrealbox.com (Matthew Thomas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:19:42 +1000 Subject: Displaying paragrahs of text on Rosetta/Launchpad ATTN:Carlos In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05042920377ff962e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da05042920377ff962e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4273075E.5020106@myrealbox.com> Corey Burger wrote: > > As this has a great deal to do with us, we need to be in on day one. > Carlos, can you throw open the relevant portions of this spec? > > http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/DisplayingParagraphsOfText There's nothing relevant to ubuntu-doc in this spec. I've copied over the summary so you can see just how boring it is. Cheers -- Matthew Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ From corey.burger at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 04:24:27 2005 From: corey.burger at gmail.com (Corey Burger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:24:27 -0700 Subject: Displaying paragrahs of text on Rosetta/Launchpad ATTN:Carlos In-Reply-To: <4273075E.5020106@myrealbox.com> References: <348bd6da05042920377ff962e2@mail.gmail.com> <4273075E.5020106@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <348bd6da050429212479ad193e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/29/05, Matthew Thomas wrote: > Corey Burger wrote: > > > > As this has a great deal to do with us, we need to be in on day one. > > Carlos, can you throw open the relevant portions of this spec? > > > > http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/DisplayingParagraphsOfText > > There's nothing relevant to ubuntu-doc in this spec. I've copied over > the summary so you can see just how boring it is. > > Cheers > -- > Matthew Thomas > http://mpt.net.nz/ > Thanks. I already had a dozen conspiracy theories about that one. All shot to pieces. Anyway, onwards, corey From robitaille at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 04:44:14 2005 From: robitaille at gmail.com (Daniel Robitaille) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:44:14 -0700 Subject: Finally, we come to the fridge (no I am serious) In-Reply-To: <348bd6da050429210975eab30d@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da050429210975eab30d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1114836254.9943.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-29-04 at 21:09 -0700, Corey Burger wrote: > We had better get our shnouts into this one: > > http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/TheFridge > note that the fridge may not be a fridge by the time it goes live; the name is still not set in stone. Still an intriguing project to bring all sort of Ubuntu-related content into one "kitchen appliance" by the time Breezy is released. -- Daniel Robitaille GPG: http://robitaille.fastmail.fm/pubkey.asc (0x5C19F466) IM Jabber: robitaille at jabber.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lookkas at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 05:03:36 2005 From: lookkas at gmail.com (Lucas Meneghel Rodrigues) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 02:03:36 -0300 Subject: Ubuntu and Upstreams In-Reply-To: <348bd6da05042919398d6a5f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da05042919398d6a5f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ac58f4f050429220353c2ad94@mail.gmail.com> 2005/4/29, Corey Burger : > "Ubuntu can help expose upstream projects to new users, give them > credit for their work, and generally raise awareness of their efforts. > While we should avoid confusing "racing car" branding overload, we > should credit upstreams in our DOCUMENTATION or user interfaces, > documentation and websites - and let upstreams know we are doing it." > > Thoughts? > > (I am not speaking negatively, I just want to know where we want to go > with this.) (I'm new to this list, so forgive my rude intervention in this discussion.) It's a good thing that we are concerned with giving upstream projects appropriate acknowlegdment. Good relationship with upstream projects is vital for any free software OS distribution in 2 different but important fields: - Technical field: By trying to make all the relevant vendor patches upstream, we are reducing the maintainance burden, since the mainline code is being improved and the developers don't need to maintain large sets of patches; - Political field: Acknowledging your partners helps you build a good image in the free software community. When you don't, you usually loses credibility. Look at Linspire (former LindowsOS): They make an overly agressive branding strategy [1], that produces many "branded forks" of widely known software projects, like Mozilla (plus patches), wich is called "Linspire internet suite inside their distribution. That said, I don't think that this acknowledgement will take too much space in the docs, since it can be done in a short yet elegant way. This way everybody under the sun will be happy :) Again, sorry for making this intervention. And I hope that i was clear enough in my message, since english is not my native language and this post will be read by many english technical writers (thinking about this gives me creeps). Go easy on me! Cheers Lucas [1] I want to make clear that I have nothing against Linspire, wich I regard as a really good Operating System, with good developers and a strong focus. They do some mistakes, tough and I'm just pointing this for the sake of the current discussion. From sean at inwords.co.za Sat Apr 30 10:56:48 2005 From: sean at inwords.co.za (Sean Wheller) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:56:48 +0200 Subject: Ubuntu and Upstreams In-Reply-To: <6ac58f4f050429220353c2ad94@mail.gmail.com> References: <348bd6da05042919398d6a5f6@mail.gmail.com> <6ac58f4f050429220353c2ad94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504301256.54360.sean@inwords.co.za> On Saturday 30 April 2005 07:03, Lucas Meneghel Rodrigues wrote: > 2005/4/29, Corey Burger : > > "Ubuntu can help expose upstream projects to new users, give them > > credit for their work, and generally raise awareness of their efforts. > > While we should avoid confusing "racing car" branding overload, we > > should credit upstreams in our DOCUMENTATION ?or user interfaces, > > documentation and websites - and let upstreams know we are doing it." > > > > Thoughts? > > > > (I am not speaking negatively, I just want to know where we want to go > > with this.) > > It's a good thing that we are concerned with giving upstream projects > appropriate acknowlegdment. Good relationship with upstream projects > is vital for any free software OS distribution in 2 different but > important fields: > > - Technical field: By trying to make all the relevant vendor patches > upstream, we are reducing the maintainance burden, since the mainline > code is being improved and the developers don't need to maintain large > sets of patches; From the documentation perspective it has always been my thinking that we need to focus on what is good for Ubuntu/Kubuntu. We cannot stop people from contributing to upstream projects nor should we attempt to discourage this. However, each time one of the team becomes involved in projects external to our core projects, effort is detracted. My solution to this problem is to use vendor drops. Bring upstream docs that are of value to our core projects, to us. Have the team edits and enhance the vendor drop and push it upstream, while resusing the vendor drop in our core projects. In this way we need to give credit to upstream and our team. > Again, sorry for making this intervention. And I hope that i was clear > enough in my message, since english is not my native language and this > post will be read by many english technical writers (thinking about > this gives me creeps). Go easy on me! Don't be sorry, nobody on this list should feel scared are afraid to voice their opinion regardless of their proficiency in the English language. We value all input and ideas that have a clear focus and objective in mind and that can be backed by workable solutions. Of course if messages don't fall into these categories then we just shoot down the author :-) -- Sean Wheller Technical Author sean at inwords.co.za 084-854-9408 http://www.inwords.co.za Registered Linux User #375355 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: