Let's drop the 'ubuntu' clause

[Ben Edwards]

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:29:37 +0000, sparkes <sparkes at westmids.biz> wrote:
> I know this is going to be unpopular, but I am not here to be popular
> but to provide the best possible documentation for ubuntu.  So this is
> me with ubuntu turned on but speaking for the best of the community.
> Start of rant ;-)
>
> We need to stop using the ubuntu clause, you know when we say isn't that
> the ubuntu way, in discussions.  I have done it myself and now regret
> it.  Ben used it in the resent discussion and I am sure once he hears
> what I am about to suggest he will have pangs of regret as well.

It was a pun meant partly in humor - I didn't use the ubuntu strap -
which is 'humanity to others' - I said 'Humility to others' - IMHO ;)

> What we are doing (this is everyone who has used this get out of jail
> card) it using it as an excuse not to provide the best possible document
> or user experience.
> 
> It's all well and good being nice to each other and we have a great
> community that is respecting others feelings and generally getting along
> but we are using the ubuntu clause to support arguements that are
> technically weak in most cases.
> 
> Ubuntu wouldn't be a strong distro without the fact that developers can
> argue out the best solution to a problem based on techical merits and
> not on the promise of ubuntu.  I haven't seen the ubuntu card played on
> the developer list yet ;-)
> 
> We need to find the *best* solution to problems, simpily *good enough*
> should not be good enough for us.  We should strive for excellence.  We
> are working on, what I believe, is currently the best linux distro and
> is based on a strong free software stance.  Why should we weaken that
> because we don't want to upset each other when reaching the best solution.

I am afraid that the world is not a totally objective place.  There is
no best solution for all of the people all of the time  - we cant
oversimplify things by seeing everything as black or white.  Neither
is it totally subjective.   I find intersubjectivety
(http://www.library.utoronto.ca/utel/glossary/Intersubjectivity.html)
to be as a useful framework - although fundamentalists would disagree.

> Take a look at the lists for some of the large projects we are utilising
> in this project.  You see some absolute wars break out on the linux and
> debian lists (although you might want to avoid debian-legal ;-) ) but
> they tend to reach the right conclusion in the end.  I don't want to
> weaken the ubuntu docs by not having the strength to fight a corner
> until the best possible solution is found.  We are far too often
> aggreeing to disagree just because it is easier than defending a position.
> 
> I doubt the developers of our upstream partners would think that
> agreeing to follow a technically weak path when 'the right way' (tm) is
> just as easy to follow is a good stratagy.  We have a good community but
> by being nice to each other when we have such diametrically opposed view
> points when we should find the right solution is weak.

The rite way in whose opinion - I would never be so bold to say my way
is the right way for everybody - in the real world where people want
different things out of technology there can never be a best way - all
you can hope for is a solution that works for most of the people most
of the time or a set of solutions. Here we get into intersubjectivity
again.

Email lists and forums are a good examples.  Some find forums best,
some email lists.  There is no write or wrong - providing both
solutions is one way to go.

> I am not saying that every discussion should have a winner and a loser.
>  I don't think in terms of winning and losing generally and think that
> as long as the community grows from each discussion everybody wins.

But surly if  subscribe that "we need to find the *best* solution to a
problem" there must be a winning and loosing argument?

> Sometimes it's best to follow two stratagies.  I think the choice to
> write two books is the best one for the community at the moment.  I
> believe that we are best to start with debian docs and others don't.  As
> the discussion progessed it was descided to gpl the new docs with the
> immediate impact on the discussion that the arguement was over.  The
> debian docs are gpl, the new docs are gpl.  We can combine the two at
> any point to get a better solution.  Win win.

Having 2 (or more) guides to Ubuntu enables us to have diferent guides
aimed at different audiences.  The debian docs are good the
technically minded people and hopefully the 'Using Ubuntu' book is for
newbies and people who do not want, or are unable to, get technical. 
Combining them later would just dilute the intent.  The key thing for
any piece of communication/teaching is defining your audience and
tailoring it for them  - therefore you will have different
documentation covering the same subject for different audiences.

If may well be useful to have good linking between the Debian docs and
Using Ubuntu.  However I think we should have a separate
non-intimidating newbie book which can be published in the traditional
paper format.

> Unfortunatly the majority of discussions seem to be leading nowhere in
> particular.  We discuss something, put off coming to an agreement until
> the meeting and then go on our own ways doing our own things.  I can't
> remember us making a decision on the list, perhaps this is just my
> fubared memory.

This does seem to be a problem - do we have clear set of decision
making guidelines  - or is it the people with the passwords that
ultimately decide;)

> I am not suggesting we stop being respectfull of other people.  That is
> not just ubuntu but generally good manners what I am suggesting is we
> continue to provide the best possible solution to any given problem.
> 
> It's no good bitching about the wiki when the documentation is a much
> larger project than our primary choice of wiki markup.
> 
> Rant over ;-)

I haven't had this much fun in ages!

Ben

> I hope I managed to get my point across without looking like a pillock
> here but I am attempting to push us in the right direction and out of
> the potential quakmire we are looking towards.
> 
> I also hope I didn't use this rant to put my own view across but have
> presented a balanced argument to what I see as a potential show stopper
> here.
> 
> Don't bother arguing about the technical arguements in this mail, it
> isn't a technical mail, it's a philosophical one.  I would love to get
> some feedback on this so we can start working on doing the right thing
> again.
> 
> oh and if you are repling to this, don't top post! urrgghh that one was
> personal ;-)
> 
> thanks for your time
> 
> sparkes
> --
> <davee> "Sparkes, the Pete Best of LugRadio"
> 
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> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
> 
-- 
Ben Edwards - Poole, UK, England
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