Understanding the definitions and expectations of our membership processes

[Chase Douglas]

On 07/27/2011 01:08 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Chase Douglas
> <chase.douglas at canonical.com> wrote:
>> However, I'm not quite sure on what the policy is for upload rights. The
>> issue I see is that the upload rights seem to be based on an intangible
>> "quantity" of stuff, and the "stuff" does not feel appropriate to me. My
>> understanding is that the "stuff" is experience in packaging. The
>> "quantity" of stuff relates both to how much packaging one has done, and
>> how many different forms of packaging one has worked on.
> 
> I was unsure about my MOTU application when I applied. On the one
> hand, I had Ogra being surprised when I needed a sponsor for Universe
> packages (other devs are surprised you can't upload? take it as a
> hint), but on the other I had like 15 uploads (wasn't sure that was
> enough). I kind of had the impression that I might need more uploads
> than that, and I've heard things where people think they need like
> 30+, and that's just...a lot.  I did do my first merge only a half
> hour before the IRC meeting, and in the meeting I explained this as "I
> didn't think I stood a chance without having done one."  I did not do
> any FTBFS or binary-new packages before my application.
> 
> So, for me, the quantity of "stuff" expected is not huge.  For a MOTU,
> I'd be more interested in the variety. If the person uploaded the same
> 5 packages 3 times each...why not go for PPU? If you're interested in
> a broader range of packages....show that.
> 
> If you're just going for PPU, I'm not likely to care whether you have
> experience with lots of types of packaging, as long as you understand
> the ones used in the packages you're asking for.  For MOTU/Core-Dev,
> the "knowing your limits" thing comes in and includes "knowing when
> you're running across one of those types you haven't done before"

Assuming this is agreeable to everyone, why don't we write this down as
guidelines for the amount of work required. Some reference is better
than none. I've tried in the past to get this exact information out of
some on the board, and it was like pulling teeth and I didn't end up
with any information.

>> The problem with this approach is that it doesn't fit the granted
>> privileges. The privilege is the ability to upload to the official
>> archive. AFAIK, there is no other privilege associated with PPU, MOTU,
>> or Core-Dev. Essentially, the question is: do we trust the applicant
>> with the ability to make any changes to the set of packages they apply
>> for. Trust is orthogonal to skills/experience.
> 
> They are related though. Experience teaches you your limits.  Spending
> some time getting involved also gives you a chance to get to know lots
> of members of the community, and therefore establish trust with them.

Certainly they are related. I believe the problem is that the amount of
experience, which isn't really defined, is held up as a hard
requirement. It should be that you have enough experience such that you
know your limits and that you have valid endorsements from others. If
you cross that threshold, what more is there to prove?

---

(Note: I don't want to get into specific cases, but the following is an
issue that I imagine is fairly unique. I've used my own personal case
here to illustrate the point, but I don't want to get into a
conversation about my particular merits here.)

The other thing that I forgot to mention is that moving to a "trust"
model of requirements resolves the issue that I face: acceptable for
core-dev, but not for motu, and thus I'm not acceptable for core-dev. I
was told that I would be strongly considered for core-dev because of the
amount of work I've done on packages in main. However, core-dev implies
MOTU, and since I haven't done any (well, very little) universe work, I
couldn't be a MOTU. Hence, I'm stuck, and I seriously have no extra time
in the day to do any universe work.

(The technical reason why I was told I was not acceptable for MOTU was
because I did not have a breadth of experiences dealing with universe
packages. By that, the board meant I did not have experience with
potentially poorly maintained packaging.)

If one is trusted to upload system-critical packages and to know the
limits of his or her packaging competencies for main, then it shouldn't
be any different for universe.

-- Chase