about the base install

[Marc MERLIN]

On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 12:58:13PM -0700, Matt Zimmerman wrote:
> > just the base minimum. This should be around 50MB, maybe 100MB now?
> 
> We plan to address this for the next release (see the same PackageSelection
> BOF page linked earlier) by dividing the existing base system into a minimal
> base (more along the lines of a traditional Debian base), plus a task for
> the additional packages that we add to an Ubuntu base install, rather than
> expanding the Debian base system.
 
That makes sense.
 
> The guiding principle for the new minimal base would be "the minimum
> necessary to install more software with apt".  

Yes, agreed.

> This would lay the groundwork for selecting between:
> - A very minimal system
> - A well-rounded generic server base
> - Either of the above, plus specific packages
 
right.
 
> If you have specific feedback about the packages in the current base system,
> I'm interested to hear it.

I'll see if I have feedback later.

> > after that:
> > ubuntu-desktop / ubuntu-gnome / ubuntu-kde
> > (note that ubuntu-desktop has basic user utils and X, but no desktop
> > managers. That's if I want just X and twm/enlightenment/blackbox/whatever)
> 
> Our approach to GNOME vs. KDE is a bit different; Kubuntu is a proper Ubuntu
> derivative, with its own set of parallel tasks.  Kubuntu's "desktop" is
> separate and distinct from Ubuntu's "desktop".  It is possible to install

I know (including the history :)

> Kubuntu tasks on Ubuntu and vice versa.  In the same spirit as Ubuntu,
> derivatives are under development based on alternative, lightweight desktop
> environments (based on Xfce, Icewm, etc.).

IMO, you should still have base X install and a KDE and GNOME task that can
be put on top for those who want the full thing instead of let's say:
base X / fvwm / vncviewer

> > For the rest, I think the way RH does it isn't bad: 
> > - ubuntu-extras (all common stuff people put on top of a stripped down
> >   server: default mta/vim/emacs/mc/perl/python/ruby?/tcl?)
> 
> I feel pretty strongly that vim, perl and python belong in the base (the
> "fat base", not the minimal one).  Of course, stripped-down perl and python

I mean the same thing by ubuntu-extras as you mean by fat base, so we're in
agreement :)

> interpreters are required infrastructure on any Ubuntu system; I'm talking
> about the full package.  I think the rest of these are probably

right.

> > - ubuntu-printing
> 
> Would be fairly straightforward, at least if we merge the "client-only" and
> "client+server" use cases into one set of packages.
 
that would mean server (fonts, foomatic, cups-server and all the other fun
printing stuff). The base cups-client should be in the fat base IMO
 
> > - ubuntu-web (i.e. apache and all the mods/php/etc)
> 
> Another tricky one.  What about the PHP modules?  Many web servers don't use

Since it's a task, I'd make it inclusive. People who want stripped down
can install without the task.
For me a task is install all I could need to do X

> PHP at all.  Is there much more in this category that can be considered
> generic enough to be broadly applicable to web servers, besides Apache
> itself?

You're welcome to look at the RH package list :)

> > - ubuntu-devel (devel libs/includes/full compilers)
> 
> Which devel libs?  If only the C library, this is provided by the existing
> build-essential metapackage.  If you want the set of development libraries
> necessary to rebuild the system, that's quite a lot, and not generally
> applicable to systems in a "development" role.

I'm not entirely sure what RH does there, but indeed, that means all the
-devel packages for all libraries on the base system.

> > - ubuntu-games
> 
> What criteria would be applied to choose which games?  We currently include
> gnome-games in the desktop install, to provide the expected toys.  As I'm
> sure you realize, there are a huge number of games in Ubuntu, of varying
> quality, user interface, size and genre.

honestly, you pick :)
(not super important anyway)

> Our decision was based on the consideration that if we were going to "force"
> an MTA on the user by default, it should be one which required a minimum of
> privilege for its various components, and postfix follows that guideline
> more closely than does exim.
 
Understood.
 
> > I'd say that if you can only offer just a very small ubuntu-base/server
> > install, you'd be there 90% of the way IMO (adding stuff on top is always
> > easier)
> 
> That's very much part of the plan for the next cycle.

Cool.

Talk to you later,
Marc
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