Thanks to Todd and Henrik. No, Henrik, I don't have a TV card; there is nothing but a GeForce 2 video card added to the mobo. Todd, how can I run any of what you say if it won't boot? Do I do all that work on the older version? What about the startup/boot log that I presume is generated during the .16 boot? Please also send a URL describing how to "change your grub boot options to remove the splash so you can see the errors etc. better", as I see no such help anywhere, including in the GRUB Manual at <a href="http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html">http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html</a> which I am starting to read ( 52 pages ! ) but guess what: A search of the complete text (HTML) for splash finds none, so I have come to a dead end trying to do what you say. Oh well, at least there is a Manual, and I guess I can send the GRUB team a request to fix the Manual to include how to "remove the splash" and any other explanation of controlling the splash, including how to prevent GRUB-update from undoing the changes a user (root?) makes (see refs below), and then, once I know what I want/need to change, should I use QGRUBEditor as in <a href="http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/how_to_edit_your_grub_settings_with_qgrubeditor">http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/how_to_edit_your_grub_settings_with_qgrubeditor</a> or just nano or gEdit, or something else? Do you see why a person like me who wants to help improve Linux and defeat the Evil Empire gets discouraged, because it's too d__ed difficult to learn how to run tools and report problems (even to find out which forum/list to post to)? If indeed "Requests and posts to this list should be more mature in nature and something that developers would or could act more directly on", then why is such guidance not on the page introducing the Ubuntu Lists at <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/">https://lists.ubuntu.com/</a> which I did read carefully before deciding this list is the only one I could use, as I saw <a class="mailinglist" href="http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users">ubuntu-users</a> - Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions and my Ubuntu is the free version so I am not under a "user technical support" agreement? Further, don't you agree there should be at least one list where users are encouraged to submit problem reports? I see no such recommendation. See also (others have splash-related problems): <a href="http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=503913">http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=503913</a> and some have analyzed it some, and have some more info: <a href="http://osdir.com/ml/boot-loaders.grub.bugs/2005-07/msg00027.html">http://osdir.com/ml/boot-loaders.grub.bugs/2005-07/msg00027.html</a> If you wish to address any of the above points of course I encourage that, but either way, I will take all this to the "users list" as you recommend. Thanks again for any help. Jim <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Todd Deshane <<a href="mailto:deshantm@gmail.com">deshantm@gmail.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Hi Jim, This is something that I would recommend report a bug on at: <a href="https://launchpad.net/ubuntu" target="_blank">https://launchpad.net/ubuntu</a> From your description it sounds like it is a kernel problem, so look for the appropriate linux package. Make sure you have the latest available and then you should provide some more information in the reports. For some good ideas see: <a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures" target="_blank">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures</a> and in particular: <a href="https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies" target="_blank">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies</a> Things to make sure you include are the output of dmesg, lspci, and the like. You should also change your grub boot options to remove the splash so you can see the errors etc. better. This type of problem is generally better for the users list or forums. Requests and posts to this list should be more mature in nature and something that developers would or could act more directly on. Follow up questions would be better addressed by those lists as well (until the point at which it is a confirmed bug and there is a clear fix and something that should get developers attention, use your discretion on that one) Best Regards, Todd <div class="gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Jim and Judi Harris <<a href="mailto:jandjharris@gmail.com" target="_blank">jandjharris@gmail.com</a>> wrote: </div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"> Hi. This is my first post to this kind of list. I'm not a Linux newbie but close to it. I've been using Ubuntu for the last few years (and tried a few other versions before that), but mostly as a "Typical Windows User", where I focus mostly on using the applications, not the OS. Anyway, perhaps because of that orientation, I have chosen Ubuntu and love it, and have switched all my learning efforts to applications that Ubuntu supports, e.g. Mythbuntu, StreamRipper, DVD authoring, OpenOffice (tho I'm getting real disappointed in Writer compared to M$ Word), lots more. So here's my problem report: I burned a verified ISO of Hardy Beta a couple weeks ago, and it installed flawlessly (after CD Check OK) on a new hard drive in a 5-year-old box I own, and I was using it a little with no problems on and off for a couple weeks, then last weekend it told me it had a bunch of updates (about 150 MB or 150 packages; I'm not sure) and that went flawlessly too, and I did some more stuff and shut down normally. Now, when I power on, it appears to boot OK up to where the little orange thingie stops shuttling back and forth, and becomes a normal "progress bar", then it goes about 3 jumps till it's about 15% done and then just sits there forever. So I power off and on, then choose the previous version from the GRUB menu (I think it's kernel .12 to boot OK, rather than the .16 that fails). I will be happy to send some startup logs or sys info or whatever would help, but I don't know how to get them. I can run Terminal and browse the Filesystem and Locate and install new tools via the Package Manager. So if you want me to run some command-line utility, maybe with sudo, please tell me exactly what to type and I will pipe the output to a file and send it to you or whatever will help. In general, I would like to learn what troubleshooting/diagnostic tools I should use in a situation like this, so if you want to send me some URLs to those I will learn some more. Sincerely, Jim Harris -- When sitting down in front of a computer to do something useful, never say, or even think, "I will just do this quickly." </div></div>-- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com" target="_blank">Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com</a> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss</a> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div> -- When sitting down in front of a computer to do something useful, never say, or even think, "I will just do this quickly."