Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 77, Issue 8
Adam Wolfe
kadamwolfe at gmail.com
Tue Apr 9 16:00:29 UTC 2013
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On 04/09/2013 11:58 AM, ubuntu-devel-discuss-request at lists.ubuntu.com wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Dmitrijs Ledkovs)
> 2. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Waclaw Kusnierczyk)
> 3. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Oliver Grawert)
> 4. Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 77, Issue 7 (Adam Wolfe)
> 5. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Brett Cornwall)
> 6. RE: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
> (Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn)
> 7. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Oliver Grawert)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:21:31 +0100
> From: Dmitrijs Ledkovs <dmitrij.ledkov at ubuntu.com>
> To: Brett Cornwall <brettcornwall at lavabit.com>
> Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss <ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
> Message-ID:
> <CANBHLUhmc+KH8vhxfQh7neopT829w628HpqZocnKtf6Q8LdD=w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 9 April 2013 12:45, Brett Cornwall <brettcornwall at lavabit.com> wrote:
>> On 04/09/2013 06:31 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Aptitude is a fairly niche and highly technical package.
>> <snip>
>>
>> I beg to differ:
>>
>> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkgtools.en.html
>>
>> Official Debian docs, section 8.1.3 - aptitude:
>>
>> "Note that aptitude is the preferred program for daily package management
>> from console".
>>
> Sure, that's why aptitude is seeded on ubuntu-server images, is in
> main and supported.
>
>> Dismissing this as a 'niche' tool hardly counts.
>>
> Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche"
> on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications
> are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server.
>
> We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
>
> On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
> package management using:
> - dash application scope
> - software updater
> - software center
>
> Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above.
>
>> AFAIR, Debian was even trying to discourage usage of apt-get in the day in
>> favor of aptitude before Ubuntu decided to drop aptitude in 10.10.
>>
> On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as
> there is no need for that for non-developers.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dmitrijs.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:37:33 +0200
> From: Waclaw Kusnierczyk <waku at idi.ntnu.no>
> To: Dmitrijs Ledkovs <dmitrij.ledkov at ubuntu.com>
> Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss <ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
> Message-ID: <51640B8D.4040805 at idi.ntnu.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Where does this conmviction come from?
>
> On 04/09/2013 02:21 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
>> On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as
>> there is no need for that for non-developers.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dmitrijs.
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 15:10:04 +0200
> From: Oliver Grawert <ogra at ubuntu.com>
> To: ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
> Message-ID: <1365513004.29159.3.camel at chromebook>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> hi,
> On Di, 2013-04-09 at 13:21 +0100, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
>
>> We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
>>
>> On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
>> package management using:
>> - dash application scope
>> - software updater
>> - software center
>>
> on a sidenote it would be duplication to add an additional package
> commandline tool with additional metadata DBs next to apts. we are short
> enough on diskspace on the images (especially on desktop) no need to
> bloat that with duplicated tools ...
>
> ciao
> oli
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 09:27:04 -0400
> From: Adam Wolfe <kadamwolfe at gmail.com>
> To: ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 77, Issue 7
> Message-ID: <51641728.4050906 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> unsubscribe
>
> On 04/09/2013 08:00 AM, ubuntu-devel-discuss-request at lists.ubuntu.com wrote:
>> Send Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list submissions to
>> ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> ubuntu-devel-discuss-request at lists.ubuntu.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> ubuntu-devel-discuss-owner at lists.ubuntu.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Ubuntu-devel-discuss digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10? (Dmitrijs Ledkovs)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:31:29 +0100
>> From: Dmitrijs Ledkovs <dmitrij.ledkov at ubuntu.com>
>> To: Brett Cornwall <brettcornwall at lavabit.com>
>> Cc: ubuntu-devel-discuss <ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com>
>> Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CANBHLUgc2WSOMT9P8+n6m0373ROroRbp8yW-xkwcF_b4VJFe7w at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> On 8 April 2013 17:46, Brett Cornwall <brettcornwall at lavabit.com> wrote:
>>> In revisions past, Ubuntu's CDs did not have enough space to accommodate
>>> aptitude and apt-get. Now that we have moved on to DVDs I feel it would be a
>>> worthy investment to include aptitude by default, especially since it is
>>> Debian's 'proper' package management tool.
>>>
>> We did not move to DVDs, but to a 800MB limit. Aptitude is a fairly
>> niche and highly technical package. People who know/want to use
>> aptitude are also sufficiently advanced to install it manually.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dmitrijs.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:29:04 -0400
> From: Brett Cornwall <brettcornwall at lavabit.com>
> To: Dmitrijs Ledkovs <dmitrij.ledkov at ubuntu.com>,
> ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
> Message-ID: <516433C0.5040007 at lavabit.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
> <snip>
>> Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche"
>> on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications
>> are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server.
>>
>> We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
>>
>> On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
>> package management using:
>> - dash application scope
>> - software updater
>> - software center
>>
>> Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above.
>>
> I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users
> install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top?
> My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended
> package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the
> packages possible for this project.
>
> So the drawbacks of including aptitude seem to be:
>
> 1) It takes up 2 MB of space
> 2) Dependency resolution might have to actually be tested (instead of
> making every stupid package just depend on ubuntu-desktop or xorg?). ;)
>
>> On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as
>> there is no need for that for non-developers.
> I see, so an OS for 'everyone' shouldn't even have gnome-terminal
> installed at all - make people switch to a VT (and why hasn't that been
> disabled by default? I'd bet my life savings that every user has
> accidentally hit CTRL+ALT+F1 at least once on their Ubuntu use - now
> THAT'S an issue to really actively prevent). There are some strange
> priorities set based on these phobias. Again, I'm not suggesting an
> arbitrary specialized tool like vim/emacs get included, I'm suggesting
> the addition of the endorsed CLI package management tool from the Debian
> project be included. So if the project were to (understandably) want to
> include only one CLI tool to use, why not aptitude? As stated, it's
> already officially supported on ubuntu-server, why not include it on
> ubuntu-desktop and drop apt-get to reduce a package to have to
> officially support?
>
> And who said I was a developer? I'd only be so lucky to be able to claim
> that title.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 15:36:48 +0000
> From: Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn <alanjas at hotmail.com>
> To: Brett Cornwall <brettcornwall at lavabit.com>, Dmitrijs Ledkovs
> <dmitrij.ledkov at ubuntu.com>, "ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com"
> <ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: RE: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
> Message-ID: <BLU171-W1147DA27AA146DA75F91565B5C60 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:29:04 -0400
>> From: brettcornwall at lavabit.com
>> To: dmitrij.ledkov at ubuntu.com; ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
>> Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
>>
>> On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche"
>>> on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications
>>> are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server.
>>>
>>> We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
>>>
>>> On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
>>> package management using:
>>> - dash application scope
>>> - software updater
>>> - software center
>>>
>>> Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above.
>>>
>> I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users
>> install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top?
>> My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended
>> package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the
>> packages possible for this project.
>>
>> So the drawbacks of including aptitude seem to be:
>>
>> 1) It takes up 2 MB of space
> 2 mb more no makes the difference..
>> 2) Dependency resolution might have to actually be tested (instead of
>> making every stupid package just depend on ubuntu-desktop or xorg?). ;)
> +1
>>> On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as
>>> there is no need for that for non-developers.
>> I see, so an OS for 'everyone' shouldn't even have gnome-terminal
>> installed at all - make people switch to a VT (and why hasn't that been
>> disabled by default? I'd bet my life savings that every user has
>> accidentally hit CTRL+ALT+F1 at least once on their Ubuntu use - now
>> THAT'S an issue to really actively prevent). There are some strange
>> priorities set based on these phobias. Again, I'm not suggesting an
>> arbitrary specialized tool like vim/emacs get included, I'm suggesting
>> the addition of the endorsed CLI package management tool from the Debian
>> project be included. So if the project were to (understandably) want to
>> include only one CLI tool to use, why not aptitude? As stated, it's
>> already officially supported on ubuntu-server, why not include it on
>> ubuntu-desktop and drop apt-get to reduce a package to have to
>> officially support?
>>
>> And who said I was a developer? I'd only be so lucky to be able to claim
>> that title.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
>> Ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:57:54 +0200
> From: Oliver Grawert <ogra at ubuntu.com>
> To: ubuntu-devel-discuss at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
> Message-ID: <1365523074.6659.6.camel at chromebook>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Di, 2013-04-09 at 11:29 -0400, Brett Cornwall wrote:
>> On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
>> <snip>
>>> Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche"
>>> on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications
>>> are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server.
>>>
>>> We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface.
>>>
>>> On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred
>>> package management using:
>>> - dash application scope
>>> - software updater
>>> - software center
>>>
>>> Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above.
>>>
>> I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users
>> install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top?
>> My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended
>> package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the
>> packages possible for this project.
>>
> ranting wont get you anywhere ...
>
> aptitude is not the recommended tool in ubuntu and never was (at least
> in the 9 years i work on ubuntu) ... if it is recommended anywhere that
> is definitely wrong and this recommendation should be adjusted to
> apt-get.
>
> all package management and its UI tools revolve around apt since day
> one.
>
> you could as well rant about the fact that we dont include dselect by
> default ... both are debian tools that arent used in an ubuntu default
> installation ...
>
> ciao
> oli
>
>
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