Current situation of amarok, and of latex tools
ciancia at di.unipi.it
Thu May 14 13:07:25 UTC 2009
Il giorno gio, 14/05/2009 alle 21.26 +0900, Emmet Hikory ha scritto:
> Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:
> (and sometimes different
> priorities for the same package: seeking new features until personal use
> cases are addressed, and then wanting the package to be stable from that
> point forward).
Very good observation. That probably includes most ubuntu users :)
However, in some cases, it may be worth to maintain the old thing while
the new one is already available. This is done in many existing
packages. Kile, kdvi, amarok, and the intel driver should be in that
list given the balance of bugs w.r.t. new features. And selecting the
right packages can even be done in some cases by
whitelisting/blacklisting. We can't expect the users to chose the right
version of each package by hand. That's one of the main purposes of a
> I do know that the only way we can make sure that Ubuntu works for
> our use cases is to be involved. I became involved with development
> because my joystick didn't work with a game, and would encourage anyone
> else who finds a problem to do the same.
I became involved with the developement and then gave up, when I
recognised that ubuntu needed manpower. So I understand what you say.
However we can't expect all users to be developers. And in any case,
also testing is necessary and the effort of tester shouldn't be wasted.
> we need to be involved in the testing of that release, and we need to
> make sure that we are involved in discussions of the solution.
I was! Especially for the kdvi issue. But that does not count. When kdvi
was removed again some day before release, the opinion of NO tester was
seeked. I think this will upset somebody (at least if the person is not
killfiling me already as promised) but it is just true. If I take the
time to come here personally and get involved, and then am cut off in
the near future, why should I bother to come back again. And no, it's
not better for all of you if I go away. The problem is not that I write
an e-mail every three or four months, that sounds injurious to somebody.
Getting rid of this kind of e-mails will not get you rid of the problem,
which is, you released jaunty badly broken for a lot of persons. And you
don't even know how many.
In any case I won't stop writing this kind of e-mails because honestly I
think that something must be changed. I can't bear this fact that in
every release good code is thrown away without too much questioning, and
then even if testing reports regressions, the decision CANNOT be
reverted. This WRONG. It may take two years to get a decent texing
environment (xdvi is in Xaw, and I don't think I need to say anything
else); God knows how long it will take to get the intel driver in good
shape. And Hell knows when my vga out will get BACK to work as it USED
TO in feisty (or was it edgy).
As usual, I am tired of this. I want to do my part and see a side effect
on that. That's all.
> The best
> way to make sure that someone looks at your bug is to help make all the
> other bugs go away (help mark duplicates or non-bugs, help make sure the
> bugs have the right information, help provide workarounds or patches to
> fix the bugs, etc.). For those that have the time, doing a lot of this
> will result in being a developer, but that's almost a side effect in the
> goal of making sure that one's own bugs are solved. (note that this is
> but one of many reasons people become Ubuntu developers).
I may decide to get back to contributing patches at least in the near
future. But e.g. if I provide a forward port of the intel driver, be
honest, do you think that anybody in ubuntu will care? I expect to waste
If I could at least have a warranty that the need for a forward port is
appreciated, I might do my best to do that. But if I have to waste my
time and then wait for a decision if my work is needed or not, frankly,
I have better things to do. NOTE THAT I AM NOT SAYING that if I ever do
the port, it HAS to be accepted as is, or that I won't do just an
unacceptable mess. It's different: I am saying that even if I do a good
job, it does not seem to me that ubuntu is really willing to keep a
forward port of the driver; it seems to me that doing such a thing would
be so easy for an xorg ubuntu developer that they'd already done that if
they wanted it. And this is exactly the problem. If someone can prove me
wrong please DO; I'll be happier.
> It's also very useful to track the development releases. Yes, this
> *will* cause your system to have issues as large things change, but by
> doing so, one can verify that one's critical use cases are all supported
> in each release. It's the only way to do it, really.
Emmet: do you know that I DID that? That I wrote here to point out the
already known bugs? That I was responded in one case "we have time" in
the other case "ok we for-port kdvi" and in the first case, time did not
suffice, in the second case, the forward port was removed last minute?
This is what I dislike and wouldn't want to see again in karmik. I hope
that some of you developer will consider seriously these issues. If then
you can just classify them as sporadic unharmful phenomena, I think you
may be even right. If not, then something has to change.
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