<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Maybe the KC was unclear that was a request from the CC since you previously said </div>your communication was as an individual. Again the CC in my experience almost </div>always emails teams directly and setups up a time.... Usually I have seen </div>Lyz send out these invites on behalf of the CC. </div><div class="gmail_extra"> <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Michael Hall <<a href="mailto:mhall119@ubuntu.com" target="_blank">mhall119@ubuntu.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 05/30/2015 12:29 PM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote: > Maybe the CC should make a request to meet? AFAIK the CC other than its > "request" for Jonathan > to step down has not actually formally asked the KC to meet with the CC. > From the emails that ScottK posted on his blog, you will find at least the following. cproffit: "We have a few members who are not on-line currently and have not read the email so I can not speak for them, but do you feel that a meeting with the Kubuntu Council and the Community Council would be a good step forward in this matter?" cproffit: "I think the point in the discussion would be to better understand why the CC came to this conclusion that they had to make this request. It may not change minds on either side, but we should have the discussion." me: "Let’s get together on IRC, Google Hangout, or any other medium that works for you so that we can work through this together." me: "If you feel there is a reason for the CC to once again trust Jonathan’s intentions, then by all means let’s talk about it.The CC and the KC are not adversaries, we are partners. We are eager to have this discussion with you." me: "So I invite any members of the Kubuntu Council who want to talk to pick a time and a place for us to talk." me: "If anybody wants to talk to me, or yell at me, or tell me what a stupid thing we’ve done and how big of a jerk I am, I am mhall119 on Freenode and my email address is below...At this point I don’t care what is said so long as we finally start talking." > Isn't that the usual process that the CC emails teams it want to meet > with and makes a > request? Having been on one of the teams the CC meets with I recall it > working that way. > > On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 9:14 AM, Michael Hall <<a href="mailto:mhall119@ubuntu.com">mhall119@ubuntu.com</a> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:mhall119@ubuntu.com">mhall119@ubuntu.com</a>>> wrote: > > In that case I hope that any member of the KC who doesn't adhere to that > condition will contact any of us on the CC so we can start that dialog. > > > Michael Hall > <a href="mailto:mhall119@ubuntu.com">mhall119@ubuntu.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:mhall119@ubuntu.com">mhall119@ubuntu.com</a>> > > On 05/29/2015 11:48 AM, Benjamin Kerensa wrote: > > <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context</a> > > > > On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 8:43 AM, Benjamin Kerensa <<a href="mailto:bkerensa@ubuntu.com">bkerensa@ubuntu.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bkerensa@ubuntu.com">bkerensa@ubuntu.com</a>> > > <mailto:<a href="mailto:bkerensa@ubuntu.com">bkerensa@ubuntu.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bkerensa@ubuntu.com">bkerensa@ubuntu.com</a>>>> wrote: > > > > "However, the Kubuntu Council put a condition of the Community > > Council’s request to Jonathan be removed before they would agree to > > a meeting.[3, 4, 5]" > > > > Incorrect. Those were all individuals who made it clear they were > > speaking as individuals just like the individuals of the CC made > > clear their early emails were not representative of the CC as a whole. > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 6:59 AM, Charles Profitt > > <<a href="mailto:ubuntu@cprofitt.com">ubuntu@cprofitt.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ubuntu@cprofitt.com">ubuntu@cprofitt.com</a>> <div><div class="h5">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ubuntu@cprofitt.com">ubuntu@cprofitt.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ubuntu@cprofitt.com">ubuntu@cprofitt.com</a>>>> wrote: > > > > __ > > > > The Community Council is currently working on a communication to > > the Kubuntu Council with regard to their request for additional > > information. The Community Council will be providing a much more > > detailed list of incidents, with context, to the Kubuntu > > Council. The Community Council wishes to respect the privacy of > > those involved so those details will not be made public by us. > > > > > > The details below are meant to give the larger Ubuntu Community > > more information on the issue. > > > > > > The Ubuntu Community Council (CC) believes in making the Ubuntu > > community a wonderful place to participate. We strongly support > > people treating one another with respect regardless of their > > differences of opinion. > > > > > > It is important that it is understood that we will not be > > reversing that decision. > > > > > > Framework: > > > > We would like to better explain the framework the Community > > Council used to make this difficult decision. > > > > * > > > > Be Respectful > > > > o > > > > Disagreement is no excuse for poor manners. > > > > o > > > > Assume good intentions. > > > > * > > > > Value decisiveness, clarity and consensus > > > > o > > > > Disagreements, social and technical, are normal, > but we > > do not allow them to persist and fester. > > > > * > > > > We value discussion, data and decisiveness > > > > o > > > > Ultimately, if a decision has been taken by the people > > responsible for it, and is supported by the project > > governance, it will stand. > > > > * > > > > Take responsibility for our words and our actions > > > > o > > > > If someone has been harmed or offended, we listen > > carefully and respectfully, and work to right the > wrong. > > > > > > Communications with Jonathan Riddell: > > > > Starting in December of 2013 Jonathan Riddell started a series > > of communications with the Community Council with regards > to IP > > policy and the community funding program. > > > > > > The Community Council in good faith believing that > Jonathan was > > acting with good intentions took action items to work with > > Canonical to resolve the issues raised. > > > > > > Over the course of the next two and a half years Jonathan > became > > increasingly confrontational in his interactions with the > > Community Council over these two items. At times his wording > > caused offense and were potentially harmful to the > community due > > to his making worst case assumptions. [1] One of the best > > examples of this behavior is the March 19th Community Council > > meetings. Jonathan was demanding that the Community > Council make > > a statement that agreed with his position and was unwilling to > > accept the decision that the Community Council made with > regard > > to waiting until Canonical had finished a review of the IP > > policy. In that same meeting Jonathan was insensitive to the > > requests that he be more respectful and that he was making the > > situation more difficult.[2] > > > > > > To be clear, it is not the individual communications nor > > questions that were the issue. The questions are valid and > > important. It was the increasingly hostile tone of the > > communications coupled with untenable demands and > assumptions of > > the worst possible behavior on the part of Canonical and the > > Community Council. Jonathan appeared unwilling to take a step > > back and evaluate how he was communicating with the Community > > Council nor was he willing to contemplate anything less > than the > > worst possible motivation on the part of Canonical. > > > > > > Based on the pattern of communications the Community Council > > decided to ask Jonathan to step back from leadership for a > > period of one year. We were careful to delineate that he would > > keep his membership and development rights so that he could > > continue his excellent work on Kubuntu. The purpose was to > have > > Jonathan take a break from leadership so that he could reflect > > and we could work on rebuilding a collaborative relationship > > with the KDE Community in Ubuntu. > > > > > > Private vs Public > > > > The Ubuntu Community Council values transparency, but we also > > value personal privacy and public reputations. We also > feel that > > some relationships can best be repaired in private. Once we > > made the decision with regards to Jonathan we sent an email to > > him and the Kubuntu Council. Their first response requested an > > explanation which we were willing to give and wanted to do > so in > > a meeting with them. However, the Kubuntu Council put a > > condition of the Community Council’s request to Jonathan be > > removed before they would agree to a meeting.[3, 4, 5] > > > > > > Moving Forward: > > > > The examples we are citing here are not a full list, but serve > > to explain our decision. > > > > > > If at any point in the last two and a half years Jonathan had > > paused and considered the assertions that he was being > > aggressive and making things more difficult, this situation > > could have been avoided. In the end we felt that Jonathan had > > become unreasonable and was making worst-case assumptions > about > > the motivations of anyone who did not agree with his > positions. > > For that reason we have determined that he cannot represent > > Ubuntu or parts of its community. We hope that, given a year, > > Jonathan will return as a more constructive force in the > community. > > > > > > Looking back, there has been a constant willingness on > > Jonathan’s behalf to portray Kubuntu as somehow at odds with > > Canonical or the rest of Ubuntu. The portrayal of the > project as > > a ‘blue-headed stepchild’, for example, is in and of itself a > > divisive position. We very much want KDE to feel welcome and > > included and there are many other teams that are most happy to > > collaborate to enable the best possible expression of what the > > code has to offer our shared users. We are open and wish to > > encourage people passionate about both KDE and Ubuntu to lead > > that work. > > > > > > Now is time to discuss how the Ubuntu Community moves forward > > with Kubuntu as part of that community. We hope that the > Kubuntu > > Council will reach out to us in the near future and discuss a > > path forward as we continue to work together in the spirit > of “I > > am what I am because of who we all are.” > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > [1] On the 23rd of February 2015Jonathan made the following > > statement: > > “If the funding from October 2012 really isn't included in the > > current community fund and it simply has been stolen by > > Canonical this is worse than I had thought.” > > > > > > [2]On March 19th of 2015 Jonathan made the following > statements: > > > > * > > > > “czajkowski: best stop giving in to their stalling and > just > > make a statement” > > > > * > > > > “mhall119: make a public statement saying it is untrue and > > irrelevent” > > > > * > > > > “pleia2: so make a public statement that it is untrue” > > > > * > > > > “czajkowski: so time to give up on the canonical legal > dept, > > they have been stalling for a year, enough already” > > > > * > > > > “I'm astonished that the CC doesn't understand the > basics of > > free software or how it can be harmed by claims that our > > software is not Free” > > > > On March 19th of 2015 the following statements were made to > > Jonathan which he ignored or derided: > > > > * > > > > “Riddell: you're really making this harder than needs be, > > you'd swear the CC sit around doing nothing” > > > > * > > > > “Riddell: In order to make a public statement on a legal > > matter the CC would have to have a legal expert familiar > > with international law and the laws of several > countries. I > > do not feel qualified to make any such public statement. I > > also would like to say that public thrashing about on the > > topic does not help the situation either.” > > > > * > > > > “Riddell: I do not see it as an excuse Riddell, but I > would > > like to ask you to be more respectful of the people trying > > to sort through the issue.” > > > > > > [3] Charles PThu May 21 12:43:41 UTC 2015 > > > > “I wanted to send you a quick email to let you know the CC has > > received your email and the one directly from Jonathan. We have > > a few members who are not on-line currently and have not read > > the email so I can not speak for them, but do you feel that a > > meeting with the Kubuntu Council and the Community Council would > > be a good step forward in this matter?” > > > > > > [4] Myriam SThu May 21 21:30:12 UTC 2015 > > > > “ I am sure a meeting would be useful to clarify the situation, > > but personally I am not happy with the threat issued to > > Jonathan, I think this would need to be resolved before we meet.” > > > > > > [5]Scott KThu May 21 23:39:36 UTC 2015 > > > > “If the CC wants to have a discussion about a non-catastrophic > > path forward, I think that would be wonderful, but I for one > > will not be involved in such discussions what Jonathon is under > > immediate threat.” > > > > -- > > Ubuntu-community-team mailing list > > <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> </div></div>> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com</a> <div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com</a>>> > > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > > <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-community-team" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-community-team</a> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /*Benjamin Kerensa*/ > > /<a href="http://benjaminkerensa.com/" target="_blank">http://benjaminkerensa.com/</a> > > /"I am what I am because of who we all are" - Ubuntu/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /*Benjamin Kerensa*/ > > /<a href="http://benjaminkerensa.com/" target="_blank">http://benjaminkerensa.com/</a> > > /"I am what I am because of who we all are" - Ubuntu/ > > > > > > -- > Ubuntu-community-team mailing list > <a href="mailto:Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com</a> > <mailto:<a href="mailto:Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com">Ubuntu-community-team@lists.ubuntu.com</a>> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > <a href="https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-community-team" target="_blank">https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-community-team</a> > > > > > -- > /*Benjamin Kerensa*/ > /<a href="http://benjaminkerensa.com/" target="_blank">http://benjaminkerensa.com/</a> > /"I am what I am because of who we all are" - Ubuntu/ </div></div>Michael Hall <a href="mailto:mhall119@ubuntu.com">mhall119@ubuntu.com</a> </blockquote></div> -- <div class="gmail_signature">Benjamin Kerensa<div><a href="http://benjaminkerensa.com" target="_blank">http://benjaminkerensa.com</a></div><div>"I am what I am because of who we all are" - Ubuntu</div></div> </div>