[Ubuntu-be] IRC meeting 16/12/2010 – Report
wouter Vandenneucker
woutervddn at hotmail.com
Wed Dec 22 16:11:52 GMT 2010
hey guys,
I just had an answer about this question.
Apparently there was a misunderstanding. ATM the use of microsoft does NOT stand in the curriculum!
I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
But, this subject wasn't totally fiction..
The links jimbauwens submitted are from the years 04 05 and 06.
Around that same period (?maybe? even as a result of it) his school (GroupT) started with a project involving linux.
(I studied there last year but engineering instead of teaching)
To date there are still a lot of computers in that school that have an ubuntu (or derivate) OS.
In the engineering classes it's only used for 1 program during the electronic lessons.
Apparently the teachers don't really use it ever.
My friend asked about this and he was given this answer:
"Those were used in the past, but since we had to many compatibility problems we don't really use them anymore. Besides children should learn how to work with windows, chances they will ever use linux in their career are to slim. It wouldn't give them any advantage" (he didn't said it literally, but that was the message)
Further asking around showed him that not many students liked the idea of learning another OS, they didn't saw the advantage.
His teacher also said him that he wasn't the only one that had that opinion. When he asked about the official opinion of the school, he was told that it still encourages people to learn how to use linux.
What I remember of GroupT is that it really depended which teacher you had when it comes to stuff like this.
Our group was encouraged to use prezi as an alternative to powerpoint, some other groups (other docent) were told not to use prezi because of: "the inability of the program to have a standard format. Overheads, slides, powerpoints and others use different 'slides' to provide overview"
(as prezi only uses 1 big slide, with almost infinite zooming features, it would confuse people that watch your presentation)
So in short we officially don't need to be afraid of schools being unable to teach ubuntu.
But when we look deeper it seems like we've got ourself in a big chicken/egg story.
no demand of ubuntu skills > not learning new people > no company's that install it > no demand of ubuntu skills >....
I want to apologize for this, I took his words for granted, I should have checked it first.
Lastly I want to say that this might be worse then what I believed first. Convincing a minister would have been hard, but doable.
Convincing teachers and students will be harder as we have to show them 1 by 1..
Kind regards
wouter vandenneucker
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 15:04:03 +0100
From: jimbauwens op gmail.com
To: ubuntu-be op lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-be] IRC meeting 16/12/2010 – Report
I found some articles that might be interesting:www.ond.vlaanderen.be/ict/infrastructuur/vrijesoftware/advies_vrije_software_werkgroep_onderwijs.pdf
www.ond.vlaanderen.be/ict/infrastructuur/vrijesoftware/vrije_software.pdfwww.ond.vlaanderen.be/nieuws/archief/2006/2006p/1117-cd-rom-vrije-software.htm
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Jurgen Gaeremyn <jurgen.gaeremyn op pandora.be> wrote:
... oh yeah,
and here's an example of a worked out "Leerplan" for 2nd grade
ASO/TSO/KSO from the VVKSO:
http://ond.vvkso-ict.com/vvksomainnieuw/leerplanpubliek.asp?NR=2007/046
... and a new (pending) one on this page (2e graad TSO -
Handel-Talen, Toerisme)
http://ond.vvkso-ict.com/vvksomainnieuw/leerplanpubliek.asp?NR=2011/045
(have a look on page 30 of this one - it explicitly states the
software-independance)
Here's an overview for Gemeenschapsonderwijs:
http://www.gemeenschapsonderwijs.be/sites/portaal_nieuw/SO/Leerplannen/Pages/leerplancatalogus.aspx
(just type "informatica" in the search-field)
... and the "Provinciaal onderwijs":
http://www.pov.be/documenten_leerplannen.php
Grtz again,
Jurgen
On 19-12-10 15:30, Jurgen Gaeremyn wrote:
On 18-12-10 21:56, wouter Vandenneucker wrote:
Sat, 18 Dec 2010 08:53:40 +0100, mattias.campe op gmail.com
wrote:
b. Ubuntu and Education
woutervddn was stunned that end-terms for a school say that all people
that leave school at 18 should be capable of using Windows. More support
should be given to alternatives.
Strange. Do you have some official document that
says that people that leave school at 18 should be capable of
using Windows? As a teacher, I don't know about any such
document.
Hi mattias,
No I don't I looked for that document yesterday on www.ond.vlaanderen.be
but was unable to find it.
I sent a mail to my friend (currently studying to be a teacher)
with the question where I can find the file.
I'll keep you guys updated.
For the ease of talking... this is a Dutch topic - I'll switch to
Dutch. Basically showing the pages with all the end-terms in the
Flemish education.
This link points to the "competenties voor de kennismaatschappij:
beleidsplan ICT in het onderwijs 2007-2009"
http://www.ond.vlaanderen.be/ict/beleid/
(official site of the "Vlaams ministerie van Onderwijs")
If you're interested, I copied the end-terms at the bottom of this
mail. You'll be surprised of how blurry they are.
At no point is any operating system or even any specific
application named.
In my short experience with schools, teachers use the applications
that are available and the books/manuals that are at their
disposition. The biggest problems are (imo):
the ICT-staff qualified to deploy a (pretty well secured)
network under linux aren't that thick (and they often get paid
much better in a different job)
the interaction with "foreign systems" (read:
microsoft-empire) like smartphones (mostly calendar),
office-grade copy-printer-scanners, etc... is much easier on
a MS system. Isn't it ironic that even an Android (=linux)
phone gets better results connecting to Outlook (Windows only)
than to Thunderbird (Linux or whatever)?
the false claim of openoffice "compatibility". It's utterly
frustrating if a student tries running an Ooo.org Impress
presentation under MS Powerpoint... not even to mention the
opposite. I've seen kids cry over this.
all the easy "out-of-the-box" templates, clipart, fonts,
etc...
Okay, so I probably told you all some very old news here... and
sorry, but I'm not in the spot to offer solutions. I think Ubuntu
is doing a great job working on these issues, but we're not there
yet. I think it would be a good thing if Ubuntu...
... really worked out some professional marketing towards
schools. (I'm talking salesmen here, not some advertisement in
a magazine), ...
... figured out a way to get Ubuntu certification accessible
to school personnel, ...
... offer a local support approach, suitable for a school.
With all respect for the support map (I'm a member too), but
that's not a solution for a school or company.
Greetz,
Jurgen.
PS. Here's the end-terms :)
Op pagina's 15-16 vind je de eindtermen - op de erop volgende
pagina's staat hier wat commentaar bij:
De voor het onderwijs ontwikkelde leergebied- resp.
vakoverschrijdende ICT-eindtermen zijn:
Voor het gewoon basisonderwijs en voor het buitengewoon
basisonderwijs, types 1, 2, 7, 8:
De leerlingen hebben een positieve houding tegenover ICT en
zijn bereid ICT te gebruiken om hen te ondersteunen bij het
leren.
De leerlingen gebruiken ICT op een veilige, verantwoorde en
doelmatige manier.
De leerlingen kunnen zelfstandig oefenen in een door ICT
ondersteunde leeromgeving.
De leerlingen kunnen zelfstandig leren in een door ICT
ondersteunde leeromgeving.
De leerlingen kunnen ICT gebruiken om eigen ideeën creatief
vorm te geven.
De leerlingen kunnen met behulp van ICT voor hen bestemde
digitale informatie opzoeken, verwerken en bewaren.
De leerlingen kunnen ICT gebruiken bij het voorstellen van
informatie aan anderen.
De leerlingen kunnen ICT gebruiken om op een veilige,
verantwoorde en doelmatige manier te communiceren.
Voor het secundair onderwijs A- en B-stroom, en BUSO OV3:
De leerlingen hebben een positieve houding tegenover ICT en
zijn bereid ICT te gebruiken om hen te ondersteunen bij het
leren.
De leerlingen gebruiken ICT op een veilige, verantwoorde en
doelmatige manier.
De leerlingen kunnen zelfstandig oefenen in een door ICT
ondersteunde leeromgeving.
De leerlingen kunnen zelfstandig leren in een door ICT
ondersteunde leeromgeving.
De leerlingen kunnen ICT gebruiken om eigen ideeën creatief
vorm te geven.
De leerlingen kunnen met behulp van ICT digitale informatie
opzoeken, verwerken en bewaren.
De leerlingen kunnen ICT gebruiken bij het voorstellen van
informatie aan anderen.
De leerlingen kunnen ICT gebruiken om op een veilige,
verantwoorde en doelmatige manier te communiceren.
De leerlingen kunnen afhankelijk van het te bereiken doel
adequaat kiezen uit verschillende ICT-toepassingen.
De leerlingen zijn bereid hun handelen bij te sturen na
reflectie over hun eigen en elkaars ICT-gebruik.
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