<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffcc" text="#000000"> Michiel Sikma wrote: <blockquote cite="mid106E4176-1E00-44CF-B327-D43CC25D38BF@thingmajig.org" type="cite">I don't think it's just my opinion that differs. As I've mentioned before, I've got valid criticism for the Human icon set. I simply believe it to be inferior to Tangerine/Tango for various reasons. </blockquote> Michiel, Human is incomplete. It's your choice as to whether or not you want to help make it complete and consistent, or whether you would rather put time into Tangerine, or Outdoors, or one of the other themes. I don't mind where you choose to spend your time. I think it would be a great contribution to Ubuntu if you help make Tangerine stunningly beautiful. If it's good enough, Tangerine will ship in Edgy, and people can select it and appreciate your work. Please understand that it is not your sole say what the default theme for Ubuntu will be. Nor is it a democratic decision on this list. It is for the moment my decision, and in time I hope to delegate that to a dedicated art director and an art team. But first that team has to prove that it can make good plans, harness resources, and execute its plans, meeting a deadline. We spent quite a bit of time in Paris sketching out what that structure would look like, and there is plenty of space for people to work on Human, Tangerine, Outdoors, etc. <blockquote cite="mid106E4176-1E00-44CF-B327-D43CC25D38BF@thingmajig.org" type="cite">I also don't see why you simply say "guidelines are great, but we make exceptions". I don't see why you can just admit that some of the icons in the Human set are inconsistent. </blockquote> They are inconsistent purely because we have not had time to complete the set. The current set was produced in a rush during Dapper, I plan to continue to invest in the Human icon set and to work with a growing team of community volunteers to turn it into a fantastic and consistent set of icons. I think you have a great eye for consistency and clarity and would welcome your participation. You can help identify inconsistencies and provide icons which follow the style of Human but improve on the consistency. But if you are dead set on using Tangerine, the please simply focus your efforts there and stop talking-down Human. Make a positive contribution somewhere, not a negative contribution. <blockquote cite="mid106E4176-1E00-44CF-B327-D43CC25D38BF@thingmajig.org" type="cite">To me, it sounds like you're just saying "it's been decided, you don't have any say in it, let's smother this discussion". I disagree with such an attitude. </blockquote> You have plenty of say, but you have spent it. Now it's time for work :-) So, choose where you will WORK. Either you can help on Human, or Tangerine, or another theme. <blockquote cite="mid106E4176-1E00-44CF-B327-D43CC25D38BF@thingmajig.org" type="cite">Don't get me wrong, though. I don't think that the Human icon set is bad by any standard, but I simply feel that a more open process would enable us to get rid of such things. It's imperative that inconsistency is taken care of in any case.</blockquote> I agree. Consistency is important - and Human needs to be more consistent. You can help with that. Human is not fundamentally closed, but in order to work with an outside artist we needed a specific process during Dapper. I am happy to take additional contributions to Human from people with a good eye, who can follow the lead of the chief artist there. <blockquote cite="mid106E4176-1E00-44CF-B327-D43CC25D38BF@thingmajig.org" type="cite"> This doesn't take away that most of the icons in the system should just come from Tangerine/Tango, as the Tango icon set is likely to be the style of icons for _all_ default application icons in the future.</blockquote> I think there is plenty of room for Ubuntu to establish a style of its own. I think Tango has been over-rated because it attempts to bind Gnome and KDE together in a way that they do not want to be bound together. I may well be wrong, which is why I don't discourage you from investing your time and energy in Tangerine, but I am confident in my opinion, which is why I'm investing my own time and energy this way. <blockquote cite="mid106E4176-1E00-44CF-B327-D43CC25D38BF@thingmajig.org" type="cite"> It will most definitely become very popular, and I don't think it is a good idea for Ubuntu to say no to that style because "we want it to be a little different". </blockquote> Distinctiveness is ESSENTIAL. I'm afraid I won't budge on that point. Tango will NEVER be the default theme for Ubuntu because it is entirely un-distinctive. <blockquote cite="mid106E4176-1E00-44CF-B327-D43CC25D38BF@thingmajig.org" type="cite">I don't see why. The Tangerine/Tango set already exists, is more complete, has more people working on it, has a more open design process, also makes Ubuntu ready for the future concerning design consistency. Just because some people felt it was necessary to say no to it for Dapper doesn't mean it shouldn't be possible to re-evaluate it for Edgy. </blockquote> Read the above. You are welcome to make Tangerine good enough to be included in Edgy. <blockquote cite="mid106E4176-1E00-44CF-B327-D43CC25D38BF@thingmajig.org" type="cite">Human isn't more complete than Tangerine/Tango. Sure, it's the custom-made icon theme for the distro, and that's a great thing, but I don't believe that this is valid rationale, concerning the criticism that I've given. </blockquote> I appreciate where you are coming from. I have heard you, but the decision is that Human will be the default for Edgy. I would encourage you to continue to improve Tangerine so that it is there as an option for the people who prefer it. Folks, this team has been spending an awful lot of time and energy with little direction. I'm giving you a clear set of guidelines as to how you can actually make a difference to the artwork in Ubuntu: * help make Human rock, because it will be the default for Edgy and changes will be backported to Dapper too * work on one of the other themes if you prefer, we will decide later which themes actually ship in Edgy based on their distinctiveness, quality and completeness. * help with the overall organisation and structure of the art processes in the wiki and lists Sending in "here's a cool picture that is totally different to anything that has been seen before" mails does not in any way help. The art council will lead us through a clear artistic definition process for the different themes, establishing what their highlights and selling points will be. Once that is done, then you can help by selecting one of those themes, joining the team working on it, and quietly helping to shape it into an awesome, consistent, complete theme. If this team is going to be a proper part of Ubuntu then it needs to be professional. Go through a professional process, pick a direction, deliver the goods. Mark </body> </html>