[ubuntu-art] Intuitive application lister and other loopy discussions (was Re: next meeting)

[Álvaro Medina Ballester]

El 10/02/2008, a las 21:17, Andrew Laignel escribió:

> Dylan McCall wrote:
>> The problem with "the Windows way" is that there is a complete lack  
>> of
>> consistency in that environment. Learning a new application is a
>> complex task since they all behave differently. As an example, there
>> is the question of whether it places itself in the notification area!
>> Really, "programs" should not place themselves there. The  
>> notification
>> area exists for programs to present information about notable
>> happenings. That Rhythmbox is running is by no means a notable
>> happening. The notification area's purpose has been extended to
>> serving as a home for programs which always run in the background  
>> like
>> NetworkManager, and I for one consider that acceptable.  
>> NetworkManager
>> isn't just placing a link to itself there; its entire user interface
>> resides in that notification area icon. Besides, one's network status
>> most definitely is a notification, just as the fact that printing or
>> bluetooth is enabled. A nice thing to note with the programs that do
>> belong there is that they do not have Quit options in their context
>> menus, because they really are core functions of the operating  
>> system.
>> I think that is a good rule of thumb. (Then again, I am not a fan of
>> the Quit option anywhere since programs should scale down and quit
>> automatically, but that's another discussion).
>
> The problem is one of necessity.  The reason so many programs use the
> notification area is that it is an incredibly useful place for a  
> running
> program to sit, and saves a massive amount of space by not being on  
> the
> taskbar.  At the moment I have MSN (which I stay on in 'offline'  
> mode so
> people can send me im's) Azureus, Exensis Suitcase (font management),
> Avast (antivirus) and occasionally skype all using it.
>

Hi Andrew!

So you usually use the system tray to store some open apps. Let me ask  
you few things...

Why do you think that firefox doesn't have an icon in the system tray?  
Why, for example, gedit doesn't goes to the notification area?

I think that those icons like MSN or Azureus are very useful for you,  
but they could be replaced with a good application selector. You can  
do it like Mac OS X bar does, if you have a torrent finished, a red  
emblem is displayed over the icon with a number inside that shows you  
how many torrents have finished. That would be as useful as the  
notification area icon I think! And you can add some right-button  
options into the application selector so, again, you can have the same  
features.

Wich makes, in my opinion, app selector a better option is that you  
divide those operating system services (or "system applications") and  
those Banshee, Pidgin applications (I like to call them "desktop  
applications"). The difference is that you don't have a menu entry on  
Applications in gnome desktop that launches sound manager, but you  
have some Pidgin, Skype launchers. Why store them in the same place if  
they're different things?

The only thing that application launcher would do is separate two  
different things, but conserving system tray functionality.
What do you think about it?


> If we were to get rid of the ability for programs to use it, we would
> need to replace it with something as useful as while it is not an  
> ideal
> solution and possibly a misapplication of its original purpose the
> reason for it is there was a need and it happened to get co-opted to
> fill this need.  If you removed the functionality from my system  
> without
> replacing it with something it would be a massive drop in utility.
>

Completely agree. If this goes further, that apps in system tray  
_should not_ be removed untill that new feature is completely  
implented and functional.


> Possibly the best solution is to create two areas side by side, one  
> for
> apps and one for notifications, maybe seperate them with a half-width
> icon of space - best of both worlds.

You mean two areas in the top bar?

I think that this is not a great idea. We're trying to make some  
notification icons monochrome to reduce visual impact, so putting more  
things into the system tray would go against that point. And I think  
that we're almost all agree about those monochrome icons in the system  
tray.

>
>> With desktop Linux we are really pushing new ground in the  
>> consistency
>> department, where both Apple and Microsoft fear to tread -- instead,
>> those two behemoths see fit to simply integrate their own built in
>> programs and hope that nobody tries differently.
> I wouldn't go that far.  Apple tends to be best for consistency,
> followed by MS then Linux.  As an example the flagship Linux graphics
> app 'Gimp' has *two* file menus.  On Windows it actually has  
> *three*!!!
> Want a new document?  You click 'File->...' Oops, the option you  
> want is
> in that /other/ File menu.  And this is a major piece of software, and
> it sports one of the most non-standard, unintuitive and convoluted
> interfaces know to man.  It's better to have one mediocre standard  
> that
> 5 good ones, which seems to be Linux' problem.

The Gimp is a great application, but their interface needs a gui re- 
design. It has one of the most confusing interfaces I've ever seen.


> That being said everyone uses their computers in massively different
> ways, so what is good for one may be horrible for another, and an  
> option
> that you think is pointless may be relied on by someone else.  I think
> it's why doing UI design is so difficult - because there are no
> absolutes and everything is subjective.  I think the key is to just  
> keep
> discussing it and see what ideas stick.

Yes. But think this one moment. Jack loves reading his mail and  
sending things to their friends. Jack has to make 5 clicks and search  
in some menus to open his mail application. Jack is happy with his  
mail application. But Jack discovered that his friend Jane does the  
same things in one click and she does faster. Jane can send 33% emails  
to her friends more than Jack.

If we design a gui that is different (or not so different!) but helps  
the user to do their job faster and in a more intuitive way, people  
would love Ubuntu. I think that some people that is not involved into  
GNU will not change their Microsoft/Apple OS if now they do the same,  
and they do in the same way.

Think about it. It's not only being different, it's being better.



Finally I want to say that all this ideas came up because a week ago I  
was surfing gnome's website looking for some gnome 3 specs. And I  
found that some gnome developer posted something like this:

"we have to discuss the complete gui for gnome 3. I'm starting to  
believe that the way that mac osx does is the right way. text menu on  
the top bar and a dock with applications"

I'm sorry because I haven't found any link to this statement, but  
somebody posted it at live.gnome.org

If Ubuntu is going to lead GNU/Linux revolution, let's start thinking  
some things, lets make some specifications, let's design a new gui for  
gnome and let's help gnome's team to develop it!


I'm glad to know that there are a lot of people interested in this :)


Cheers!