[Fwd: Naming problem for the "Falcon Programming Language" in Ubuntu.]
Daniel Holbach
daniel.holbach at ubuntu.com
Mon Jan 14 13:59:50 GMT 2008
In cases where no agreement is possible, this should have gone before
the Archive Administrators. This team acts like the Debian FTP Masters
in cases of namespace collisions. Before uploading all possible clashes
should be 100% dealt with.
The race for inclusion in both Debian and Ubuntu is totally unnecessary.
Have a nice day,
Daniel
On Mo, 2008-01-14 at 05:49 +0100, Giancarlo Niccolai wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I have been told to forward this mail to the council, because it
> contains accusation of CoC violation. Although I understand it is
> likely that the council also read the MOTU list, I complain.
>
> Bests,
> Giancarlo Niccolai.
>
>
> - -------- Original Message --------
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> Message-ID: <478AC98B.4040701 at falconpl.org>
> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 03:31:39 +0100
> From: Giancarlo Niccolai <gc at falconpl.org>
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> To: ubuntu-motu at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Naming problem for the "Falcon Programming Language" in
> Ubuntu.
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>
> Hello;
>
>
> I'd like to report a problem that is concerning the naming of two
> packages that are being concurrently racing for inclusion in the very
> next version of Ubuntu.
>
> I would argue that the way MOTU have managed the whole situation is
> questionable under the "Ubuntu Code of Conduct" that we all have signed.
>
> I came to Ubuntu as I wanted to issue my first official release of the
> Falcon Programming Language
>
> http://www.falconpl.org
>
> under the distro which I most respect, for its philosophy of mutual
> help and support which is reflected in the Code of Conduct. The very
> heart of my project is exactly "Respect for Developers", which drove
> my will to write a language written not "to parse logs" or "to keep
> finger warm", but exactly to help people write better programs, and to
> help applications to be better applications.
>
> When I prospected my project in #ubuntu-motu I have been positively
> accepted by the community; so I started writing a package; I searched
> Debian and Ubuntu repositories, and the net in search of debian
> packages named Falcon. Having not found them, I went for "falcon" as
> package name. People in MOTU told me that the naming of the package
> was fine, although some of them knew of a packaging utility written in
> python that was called "falcon.py". I offered to change the name of
> the package to falconpl, that was also the name of the site, but I
> have been told (sorry if I call people by nick), by pochu, persia and
> others that the name was ok, and to proceed. I have talked also with
> Minghua and many others.
>
> So I uploaded the package on December 6 2007 in Revu. I got comments
> through #ubuntu-motu channel, and I updated each time to fix problems
> reported by MOTU reviewers. The records are in
>
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/174470
> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=falcon
>
> On December the 20th 2007, a Motu (possibly Imbradon, but I am not
> sure), told me that the project called "falcon" had possibly a
> /usr/bin/falcon instance, which the Falcon programming language has
> too (it's the main interpreter, as /usr/bin/python or /usr/bin/ruby).
> As that was a tool used by some Motus to handle packages, although
> there was no package being submitted up to that date, it would have
> been a pity if there was a name clash in future, so I should have
> sorted out the situation.
>
> I immediately mailed the author, sending him this mail:
>
> - -------- Original Message --------
> Message-ID: <476AD25B.9060001 at falconpl.org>
> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:36:43 +0100
> From: Giancarlo Niccolai <gc at falconpl.org>
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> To: dennis at kaarsemaker.net
> Subject: "Falcon" name in namespace.
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>
> hello,
>
> I am the author of an open source software called "The Falcon
> Programming Language". I am submitting a package to Ubuntu, and I
> have been warned about possible namespace collisions.
>
> The main concern is about the "falcon" binary file, which is the
> compiler/interprter of the language (like python), and other binary
> names as libfalcon_engine.so.
>
> Up to date, several MOTUs have checked and reported there is no
> current namespace clash. I am also willing to call my package
> "falconpl", which is also the name of the site:
>
> http://www.falconpl.org
>
> However, it is necessary that we get in contact so that we can see if
> there may be some name clash now or in the future, in order to avoid it.
>
> I am quite open to any proposal.
>
> I usually hang around in #ubuntu-motu or in #falconpl.
>
> Bests,
> Giancarlo Niccolai.
> =====================================================================
>
> This my reply on its reply (I think it's useless to repaste it twice)
>
> - ------- Original Message --------
> Message-ID: <476BF4B6.8060901 at falconpl.org>
> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:15:34 +0100
> From: Giancarlo Niccolai <gc at falconpl.org>
> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: Dennis Kaarsemaker <dennis at kaarsemaker.net>
> Subject: Re: "Falcon" name in namespace.
> References: <476AD25B.9060001 at falconpl.org>
> <1198230256.6930.9.camel at mirage>
> In-Reply-To: <1198230256.6930.9.camel at mirage>
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>
> Dennis Kaarsemaker wrote:
> >> On do, 2007-12-20 at 21:36 +0100, Giancarlo Niccolai wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>> I am the author of an open source software called "The Falcon
> >>>> Programming Language". I am submitting a package to Ubuntu,
> >>>> and I have been warned about possible namespace collisions.
> >>>>
> >>>> The main concern is about the "falcon" binary file, which is
> >>>> the compiler/interprter of the language (like python), and
> >>>> other binary names as libfalcon_engine.so.
> >>>>
> >>
> >> The places where I see collisions are
> >>
> >> 1) The package name 2) /usr/{bin,share,share/doc}/falcon 3)
> >> Manpage name
> >>
> >>
> >>>> Up to date, several MOTUs have checked and reported there is
> >>>> no current namespace clash. I am also willing to call my
> >>>> package "falconpl", which is also the name of the site:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.falconpl.org
> >>>>
> >>
> >> Correct, 'my' falcon has not been uploaded to Ubuntu yet for a
> >> variety of reasons, so no conflict should exist.
> >>
> >>
> >>>> However, it is necessary that we get in contact so that we
> >>>> can see if there may be some name clash now or in the future,
> >>>> in order to avoid it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am quite open to any proposal.
> >>>>
> >>
> >> Renaming the package would unfortunately only remove two naming
> >> conflicts (package name and /usr/share/doc). The other conflict
> >> can only be resolved by renaming one of the /usr/bin/falcon
> >> files.
> >>
> >> I don't think it's really necessary to do that actually since
> >> both falcons serve two distinct niches which will have little
> >> overlap, if any. So my suggestion is to only rename the package
> >> and not the binary unless you don't mind renaming your
> >> /usr/bin/falcon to /usr/bin/falconpl
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> Renaming the package doesn't cause any trouble. Renaming /usr/bin/falcon
> would cause a bit of harassment as the automated build environment
> creates a lot of dependencies (i.e. windows build system requires
> falcon.exe to be there, double click shortcuts, ini files), not to talk
> about #!/usr/bin/falcon headers on scripts.
>
> About the overlap, if the language gets moment it may be virtually on
> any machine, so it's a thing that we should try to work on.
>
> Bests,
> Giancarlo.
>
> P.s. I should be around somewhere this night as "jonnymind" on IRC.
>
> =====================================================================
>
> I had no other communication. Just, I had a glimpse on Imbradon's
> notice on
> revu's entry
> tonight:
> "
> There is already another project in the archives named "falcon" this
> source and
> binarys will likely have to be renamed ( and make sure both are
> co-installable )
> "
>
> Checking the "falcon" project,
> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/falcon
>
> I see that the package has been loaded on "2008-01-11"; it has been
> reviewed
> and fixed in the same day, and then immediately published.
>
> I have been in #MOTU about every day, and I offered full and open
> co-operation both to the MOTU and to this project author; My project
> was discussed
> and seen by the persons involved in release, yet, they just created a
> clean
> package and immediately published it without even bothering notifying
> this fact.
>
> The chat session of this night is even more enlightening:
>
> gen 13 20:01:04 jonnymind imbradon:I read your notice about "there
> is already a package named falcon.
> gen 13 20:01:38 jonnymind However, the notice is imprecise.
> gen 13 20:02:24 * amarillion
> (n=martijn at 212-123-137-98.ip.telfort.nl) è entrato in #ubuntu-motu
> gen 13 20:02:30 jonnymind the bug "needs packaging" for my project
> has been opened in 2007, while the other package with the same name
> was opened in 2008.
> gen 13 20:03:18 * cassidy` si è disconnesso (Remote closed the
> connection)
> gen 13 20:03:24 jonnymind Moreover, I was negotiating with those
> person about the package and binary names. We were talking about what
> to do, then the conversation stopped and the other package has been
> started.
> gen 13 20:03:33 jonnymind I think we should discuss a bit the
> namespace question.
> gen 13 20:03:57 * cassidy (n=cassidy at dhansak.collabora.co.uk) è
> entrato in #ubuntu-motu
> gen 13 20:06:02 jonnymind And also, frankly decide what to do
> basing on an objective criterion.
> gen 13 20:08:16 jonnymind imbradon:?
>
> <rip>
>
> en 13 23:18:06 ScottK jonnymind: Conflicts is more usually used for
> packages that provide equivalent functionality.
> gen 13 23:18:37 jonnymind ScottK: that is absolutely true.
> gen 13 23:19:13 ScottK jonnymind: Have you discussed this with
> imbrandon?
> gen 13 23:19:26 * jekil (n=alessand at 151.82.16.79) è entrato in
> #ubuntu-motu
> gen 13 23:19:38 pochu jonnymind: (I'm not blaming you, just in case
> I'm not expressing well)
> gen 13 23:20:46 Nafallo Seveas and imbrandon.
> gen 13 23:20:52 * Knightlust si è disconnesso (Read error: 104
> (Connection reset by peer))
> gen 13 23:20:59 TheMuso s/c
> gen 13 23:21:03 TheMuso ugh damn keyboard
> gen 13 23:21:32 jonnymind ScottK: No, I have discussed with the
> original author of the other falcon.
> gen 13 23:21:45 pochu That's Seveas.
> gen 13 23:21:46 jonnymind Well, I have started the discussion and
> replied to its e-mail.
> gen 13 23:21:55 jonnymind In which he stated he wasn't going to
> make a package.
> gen 13 23:22:07 ScottK jonnymind: Right, and he didn't
> gen 13 23:22:15 pochu (which is true, the package was done by
> imbrandon)
> gen 13 23:22:24 pochu ScottK: you beat me
> gen 13 23:22:33 jonnymind Ah.
> gen 13 23:22:42 * pochu is eating pizza, so he's not that fast ;)
> gen 13 23:22:50 ScottK jonnymind: My concern right now (not having
> a great interest in either package) is that if you upload your package
> as falcon to Debian, then it's going to cause trouble between Ubuntu
> and Debian that it would be better to avoid.
> gen 13 23:22:52 jonnymind So Imbradon knew there was a falcon
> package made in december.
> <rip>
> gen 13 23:23:15 Seveas packages for 'the other falcon' have existed
> since 2006
> <rip>
> gen 13 23:25:52 jonnymind Seveas: again; the package here is named
> falconpl now.
> gen 13 23:25:59 jonnymind That closes the question.
> gen 13 23:26:30 Nafallo both packages use /usb/bin/falcom? :-)
> gen 13 23:26:36 Nafallo s/m/n
> gen 13 23:26:42 jonnymind I do.
>
> <rip>
>
> gen 13 23:59:19 pochu And out of curiosity: a package needs two
> ACKs to be uploaded to Universe... who did ACK falcon other than
> imbrandon?
> gen 13 23:59:22 jonnymind Nafallo: I am not changing 6 system
> installation scripts and 300 doc pages for this.
> gen 13 23:59:30 Nafallo pochu: *sigh* you probably know exactly
> what I mean, so why even argue about it? :-)
> gen 13 23:59:36 jonnymind Someone will find a way to package falcon
> when it is included in the other distros.
> gen 13 23:59:57 Seveas pochu, could be persia, I did the final
> checks with them
> gen 14 00:00:26 jonnymind I started packaging from ubuntu because I
> beleived in ubuntu philosophy of respect.
> gen 14 00:00:28 jonnymind ...
> gen 14 00:00:37 pochu Seveas: I'd be surprised if it was persia
> since persia was reviewing jonnymind's falcon package.
> gen 14 00:01:42 pochu And since there's no REVU upload for it to
> look at, nor ACK in the needs-packaging bug...
> gen 14 00:01:51 * keffie_jayx si è disconnesso (Connection timed out)
> gen 14 00:04:25 Nafallo pochu: I just check my logs. persia :-)
> gen 14 00:04:41 * Kmos (n=gothicx at unaffiliated/kmos) è entrato in
> #ubuntu-motu
> gen 14 00:04:47 pochu Crap.
> gen 14 00:04:59 * pochu kicks persia :)
>
> ...
>
> =================================================
>
> I have a "falconpl" ubuntu package with the "Conflict: falcon" entry
> in debian/control sitting on my hard disk;
> it was a mediated solution suggested and required by some enlighted
> MOTUs, and I gladly accepted;
> but in the moment I was going to upload it I received this notification:
>
> - ------ Original Message --------
> Return-path: <bounces at canonical.com>
> Envelope-to: gc at niccolai.cc
> Delivery-date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:55:44 -0800
> From: Nafallo Bjälevik <nafallo at magicalforest.se>
> <rip headers>
> X-Generated-By: Launchpad (canonical.com)
>
>
> This package source and binary needs to be renamed. We already have
> falcon. Please make sure they are co-installable.
>
> ======================================================
>
> This was right in the middle of our discussion about name clashes and
> Conflict: field.
>
>
>
> The point is: I have opened a falcon package in Debian, and I will do
> it with other distros as well, as Fedora,
> Suse and Mandrake. The falcon programming language is already
> installed in production environments under Windows and
> MacOS; I would have gladly mediated some solution for Ubuntu
> "/usr/bin/falcon" naming problem, but this
> possibility has been willfully snatched away for unknown reasons. As
> the space for a mediation has beenremoved by this behavior which
> is intentionally breaking the Code of Conduct, I am forced to
> resume the technical reasons why I ask to be granted the
> /usr/bin/falcon program name:
>
> 1) Falcon P.L. is a stand-alone binary application; falcon.py is a
> python script proxied by an alias command.
> 2) The "falcon" (langauge) command is common to several architectures,
> including Windows and MacOS, some
> of which have special handling of application registration which is
> part of our project.
> 3) Falcon codebase is several hundred thousands lines and growing.
> Many of this lines refer to the name of
> the main interpreter. falcon.py script is a relatively small
> application.
> 4) Falcon language (to be found as "falcon" command) is currently used
> in production environments, and changing
> its name may affect third party applications.
> 5) Falcon language documentation is several hundreds pages long, and
> reviewing it in search of the main interpreter
> name would be an extensive activity.
> 6) Falcon language copyright goes since 2004, with activity actually
> started in 2003. Falcon.py has been started in
> 2005-2006.
> 7) Falcon is known as script language name in Wikipedia
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripting_language)
> 8) Falcon language Packages for other distros (i.e.) RPM will be
> organized having /usr/bin/falcon.
> 9) Although user count between the two projects is currently not
> directly comparable, the number of potential
> users of a repository utility for a specific subset of debian
> distributions and a multiplatform scripting
> language is not a match.
> 10) Users already using Falcon would be impacted by the main
> interpreter name change, as it is the base to
> launch scripts and other applications, falcon.py script is only
> conventionally summoned with /usr/bin/falcon
> at the command line by end-users.
>
> It seems there isn't a single technical/objective reason why the
> falcon.py script project should be granted /usr/bin/falcon name,
> except for a direct involvement of some of the MOTUs in its release.
>
> I openly admit that I have opened a package request on Debiabn with
> the name "falcon" as I knew about this package being just snapped
> in without an open discussion. I am still ready to negotiate the
> package name, as *I* do beleive in the principles written on the
> Code of Conduct, that I have signed, and I don't want to cause
> unnecessary problems in a project that I still regard as a bright
> example of what mankind should be one day.
>
> Yet, the "falcon" command will be present in many distributions, and
> it is now available in many environments and O/S. I hope the
> community discuss openly and peacefully this argument considering
> the technical aspects of the question.
>
> Best regards,
> Giancarlo Niccolai.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - --
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