VEDICS Speech Assistant

[Kenny Hitt]

Hi.
On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 04:49:54PM +1000, Tim Cross wrote:
>  > do you have a URL to the archives or a rough of conversation time so I can take 
>  > a look?
>  > 
Try looking at:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2010-May/msg00099.html

That was the start of the thread.
Thanks for you post.  You did a much better job at expressing my views than
I would have done.  Also, you were much more polite than I will be in this situation.
I have no tolerance for disabled people wanting someone else to do it for them in open source.
The thing people don't seem to get is open source puts the power in the hands of the user instead
of some developer out to make money.
The high cost of access technology was the first reason I switched to Linux.  Once I started using
it and learning about what it offered, I realized Linux was the best thing to happen for
accessibility in a long time.
Linux is still the only operating system I can install without sighted help.  That was true even back
in 2000 when I did my first Linux install.
Access isn't perfect, but I have the power to fix any issues that really bother me enough.

          Kenny


> 
> Hi Eric,
> 
> while I can appreciate the frustration you express in your posts, I have to
> agree with Kenny on this one. Your points regarding history being repeated etc
> mayb e valid. However, you made no reference to any of the points you later
> expanded upon in your original post. As Kenny points out, you didn't even
> acknowledge what the OP stated as the limitations in their system. I suspect
> you didn't even look into it any further than that simple introductory post.
> Your response was flippent and negative. 
> 
> The issues you raise are real and complex. They are going to be difficult to
> resolve and ther are almost certainly going to be many failures before we have
> some success. I suspect you are correct in that many with the technical skills
> don't understand the underlying issues well and frustratingly, we are destined
> to see the same mistakes being made. I believe this is because the problem is
> generally not well understood and as a consequnce, the outcomes are less than
> we would hope. However, I also feel that this is part of the process and it
> very much mirrors developments in other areas. Frequently, we learn more from
> our failures than we do from our successes. A frustrating part of software
> development is that, unlike the real sciences, we don't document and publish
> our failures. If we did, maybe the forward progress would be better. 
> 
> I also disagree with the view/belief that ignorance of history always means
> that the same mistakes are just repeated. Sometimes, ignorance of history
> results in fresh new approaches that find a solution. In some cases, awareness
> of history can have negative impact as well. It tends to constrain/define the
> approaches taken. In computing in particular, there have been a number of
> great advances made by people who did not come from a computing background,
> who were not aware of past history and attempts. In some cases, they did
> things that those who were more aware of the past and informed about the
> technology had already discounted because of their past experiences or because
> of theoretical limitations. In fact, this is a frequent pattern in many areas.
> Consider where we would be now if the Wright brothers had just looked at the
> past history of our attempts to fly!
> 
> We should be aware of past history and we should try to learn from it.
> However, we also need to be balanced and sometimes, we just need to have a go.
> We may well fail, thats not the issue. What we need to do is pick ourselves up
> again after the failure, learn fromt he experiences and try again. 
> 
> I also have a very different view to yours regarding OSS. I don't see OSS as
> some separate culture or group. OSS is only an ideology and you cannot give up
> that ideology for expedience. Doing so means you end up with something else
> completely. It is true that adopting such an ideology can make some things
> more difficult and it is true that it will impose different limits or
> constraints. However, you adopt the ideology because you believe that in the
> end, the results will be, on the whole, better. However, I also think its a
> bit like religion. Its not for everyone and there are many different forms.
> Some people will get great comfort and inspiration from it, othes will not.
> For those who find it beneficial, great, for those who don't, great. 
> 
> The example you give regarding emacs and VR is a limited perspective. Write
> now, I'm writing to you using emacspeak, which also uses proprietary software.
> While we would not be able to get emacspeak bundled into emacs and while many
> hard core OSS developrs would not work on it because of this, it has not
> stopped its development and use. Likewise, finding new profitable business
> models that are self-sustaining is difficult because you really do need to
> approach things from a very different perspective, its not impossible and
> there are a growing number of successful businesses built on top of OSS. You
> and I may not be able to define or recognise such business models, but that
> does not mean it is impossible. Likewise, Dragon may have difficulty at the
> moment in recognising how to make their products profitable on the Linux
> platform, but that does not mean it cannot be done. Take a look at Oracle for
> an example of a company that is successful and has successfully moved their
> product to being supported under Linux. As I mentioned in an earlier post,
> often, companies are just not in a position to recognise the potentials of
> either OSS or supporting their product on other platforms. They may never do
> this or they may have a strategic change next week.
> 
> As I've mentioned before, in OSS and I believe in the areas of adaptive
> technology, we need to scratch our own itch. Often when I say this, the
> response comes back that the individual doesn't have the technical skill, the
> time or cannot do it because of their disability. I think this is just a total
> cop out. There are many ways of helping to scratch your own itch. Even just
> getting the issues out ther in front of people is a start. Yes, it might take
> me longer to code the program because of my disability, but maybe the result
> will be better because of my close association and understanding or simply
> because it more precisely scratches my own individual itch. My strength lies
> in programming. I would be less successful in other areas, such as convincing
> a commercial entity into porting their product to Linux, supporting an OSS
> project or raising awareness of the issues amongst others. We all have skills
> and ways to contribute. The tricky part is recognising what our skills really
> are and how they can be applied. 
> 
> I disagree with your assessment that you cannot do much because of your
> disability. You have mentioned you need someone to code because you cannot due
> to your injuries. Yet, you are able to write these messages. If you can write
> an email, then why can you not write code? I recognise it may be slow and/or
> it may be difficult, but as you have demonstrated the ability to write
> reasonably long emails, you could put that effort into writing code as well.
> I'm not saying it is easy, but it would be the best way to get what *you* want
> - at least better than waiting for someone else to do it for you. Maybe coding
> isn't the best way for you to contribute. Maybe it is design, or lobbying, or
> testing, or .......
> 
> You mentioned that you have lots of good ideas and indicate you even know how
> to solve some of the issues, but need someone to help you code. Maybe this
> would be easier to do if you document, plan and design what you want done.
> Maybe someone looking for a project will see it and think your ideas are
> interesting. Maybe others will have some suggestions and improvements to make
> or maybe someone out there is already working on similar ideas. The point is,
> get it down and out of your head and then in front of people and you are
> likely to get more real progress than is currently occuring. 
> 
> For example, if you had a clearly defined project, maybe it wold be possible
> to find participants to work on it as part of the next Google Summer of Code?
> Maybe someone will pick it up as part of a reserach or teaching project or
> maybe you will write it up in such a way that it inspires somoene to
> contribute, support or fund. 
> 
> I am quite sure there will be other reasons you can point out to why this still
> won't work and maybe many of them are valid. I don't know the precise
> circumstances you find yourself in and I'm not trying to be 'nasty' or overly
> critical. However, in all your posts I've seen so far, essentially all that
> has come across has been very winy and negative assessments of why it is all
> no good. You have indicated that you know of things that can be done to
> improve matters, but not provided anything of any real substance. Write your
> ideas up, put them on a web page and then start asking people for input and
> feedback. To make things change, you have to generate some interest and some
> motivation. Nobody is going to be as motivated to address the limitations you
> face as much as you are. If your not able to get motivated enough to change
> the situation, it is very unlikely anyone else will. 
> 
> This will probably come across as harsh, I don't mean it to be, but believe it
> needs to be said. Much of what you have written is true and it is obvious that
> you are frustrated. I'd even go so far as to say there is a strong element of
> negativity and some underlying anger in what you have written. There
> is also an element of 'hopelessness'. Parts of it even come across a little
> bitter and can sound like being resigned to be a victim. I know this feeling
> and I know how hard it can be to not let the frustrations, lack of change and
> feelings of injustice become all encompassing. I sincerely hope this is just a
> temprary downswing. Possibly there is just a need to vent a little to reduce
> the pressure - I get that and I've been there. An old boss of mine you to say
> that on some days, all you can do is hold the line. Thats fine. What we need
> to do is recongise when things are like this and acknowledge there are times
> we probably just need to let things go. 
> 
> At the end of the day, much of what you have written is true and all to
> familiar to all of us with a reliance on adaptive technology. It hasn't added
> anything new. This is possibly my main issue with what you have posted. From
> what you have written, it is apparent you have considerable first hand
> knowledge and experience in the VR field. Unfortunately, there is little of
> substance that could be used to either move things forward or assist others in
> avoiding some of the pitfalls. This is a pity. 
> 
> Perhaps the question to ask is how can we change things. What can we do as
> individuals to improve the situation. If you have ideas I'd strongly recommend
> putting them up on a website and then post to the various lists asking others
> to read and provide input/feedback. While this will almost certainly not
> result in any great fundamental change, it may just provide the inspiration or
> prevent/reduce wasted effort. If we don't want history to be repeated, it
> needs to be documented and accessible. Of course, we all also need to
> recognise that sometimes our abilities to communicate and motivate also fail,
> so try not to be discouraged if initial responses are poor or there appears to
> be little interest or acknowledgement. Instead, adapt and try again. The
> important things are never easy and we rarely succeed initially. We need to
> have confidence and belief in what we are doing and kee pushing forward. 
> 
> regards,
> 
> Tim
> 
> -- 
> Tim Cross
> tcross at rapttech.com.au
> 
> There are two types of people in IT - those who do not manage what they 
> understand and those who do not understand what they manage.
> -- 
> Tim Cross
> tcross at rapttech.com.au
> 
> There are two types of people in IT - those who do not manage what they 
> understand and those who do not understand what they manage.
> 
> -- 
> Ubuntu-accessibility mailing list
> Ubuntu-accessibility at lists.ubuntu.com
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