sounder Digest, Vol 81, Issue 56

Sun Apr 17 13:04:40 UTC 2011

On 11-04-17 04:36 AM, sounder-request at lists.ubuntu.com wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: Unity: Nothing can go wrong! (Samuel Thurston)
>     2. Re: Unity: Nothing can go wrong! (Fred A. Miller)
>     3. Re: Unity: Nothing can go wrong! (Samuel Thurston)
>     4. Re: 5 Out Of 11 Participants Crashed Unity In Study (Paul Sladen)
>     5. Re: Unity: Nothing can go wrong! (Fred A. Miller)
>     6. Re: Releasing every six months. Unity: Nothing can go wrong!
>        (Paul Sladen)
>     7. Re: Unity design vs. implementation: Nothing can go wrong!
>        (Paul Sladen)
>     8. Re: GNOME 3 in Ubuntu 11.04 (was: Unity: Nothing can go
>        wrong!) (Paul Sladen)
>     9. Re: 5 Out Of 11 Participants Crashed Unity In Study (David Gerard)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:23:02 -0500
> From: Samuel Thurston<sam.thurston at gmail.com>
> To: Ubuntu Sounder<sounder at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: Unity: Nothing can go wrong!
> Message-ID:<BANLkTim=XxRBjtc7Vr7nebDZOSeXmFEk9g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 3:06 PM, chris<chevhq at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Sat, 2011-04-16 at 12:50 -0500, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 3:58 AM, David Gerard<dgerard at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> On 16 April 2011 09:46, David Gerard<dgerard at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nothing can go wrong! Nothing can go wr!"&%!?%"^!%?!"""@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>>>> 5 out of 11 testers managed to crash Unity:
>>>>> http://digitizor.com/2011/04/15/crashed-unity-canonical-study/
>>>>> How far are we from release day?
>>>>
>>>> The rest of the results are pretty dismal too:
>>>>
>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-April/032988.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You know, I wouldn't mind this so much. ?I'm a stubborn user and I
>>> don't mind things being crashy, submitting bug reports, etc.
>>>
>>> However, my concern is the impact this has on the linux desktop in a
>>> larger context. ?This kind of bad press associated with the
>>> most-popular linux distro in this day and age, may be just what it
>>> took to set linux back another 5 years.
>>>
>>> Planning to release a product with an unfinished and under-tested DE
>>> is suicidally irresponsible. ? Much as I hate to say it I suspect that
>>> canonical's days may be numbered as a result of this.
>>>
>> Yes, I have been trying to make this point for some time. ?I personally
>> consider the drive to have a "release" every 6 months", could be an
>> indication of an unstable organisation. ?:-) ?Or as my wife puts it "you
>> insane lot".
> I don't think that this schedule is completely unreasonable.  The
> problem is when you make "big shifts" on this kind of timetable,
> without having prepped the work in the background.
>
> When I first heard that ubuntu would shift to unity I was skeptical
> but optimistic that multitouch and other stuff being brought in along
> with a new interface.
>
> When i heard the reasons fedora was dumping unity, i expected ubuntu
> to follow suit.  Deeply dismaying that it did not.
>
>> I do personally know several people who have dumped Ubuntu, and moved to
>> Debian stable. ?Their argument being that they want a working system
>> they can use, not something that they have to triage and fiddle with
>> constantly.
> Ugh, never going back to debian stable, having 2-year old software
> isn't why I run linux. but I think we're going to see a mass exodus
> with this release.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 19:46:54 -0400
> From: "Fred A. Miller"<fmiller at lightlink.com>
> To: sounder at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Unity: Nothing can go wrong!
> Message-ID:<4DAA2A6E.7040401 at lightlink.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On 04/16/2011 07:23 PM, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> I do personally know several people who have dumped Ubuntu, and moved to
>>>> Debian stable.  Their argument being that they want a working system
>>>> they can use, not something that they have to triage and fiddle with
>>>> constantly.
>> Ugh, never going back to debian stable, having 2-year old software
>> isn't why I run linux. but I think we're going to see a mass exodus
>> with this release.
>>
> I've stayed away from 11.4 till now. I d'led the 64-bit image, burned a
> disk, and booted it. I had understood that Unity was default. Why did
> 11.4 come up in Gnome 3? Do I have to install 11.4 to test it?!
>
> Fred
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:52:22 -0500
> From: Samuel Thurston<sam.thurston at gmail.com>
> To: sounder at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Unity: Nothing can go wrong!
> Message-ID:<BANLkTi=3ka=KWZDsfSR+rEGWUWm0SWWmuA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Fred A. Miller<fmiller at lightlink.com>  wrote:
>> On 04/16/2011 07:23 PM, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> I do personally know several people who have dumped Ubuntu, and moved to
>>> Debian stable. ?Their argument being that they want a working system
>>> they can use, not something that they have to triage and fiddle with
>>> constantly.
>> Ugh, never going back to debian stable, having 2-year old software
>> isn't why I run linux. but I think we're going to see a mass exodus
>> with this release.
>>
>>
>> I've stayed away from 11.4 till now. I d'led the 64-bit image, burned a
>> disk, and booted it. I had understood that Unity was default. Why did 11.4
>> come up in Gnome 3? Do I have to install 11.4 to test it?!
>>
>> Fred
>>
> I'm curious if you downloaded the daily build or the main beta image
> from ubuntu.com.  Either way this is a baffling development since
> gnome3 was never a serious contender for the 11.04 default desktop in
> my understanding.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 04:04:51 +0100 (BST)
> From: Paul Sladen<ubuntu at paul.sladen.org>
> To: Ubuntu Sounder list<sounder at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: 5 Out Of 11 Participants Crashed Unity In Study
> Message-ID:
> 	<Pine.LNX.4.21.1104170357390.26045-100000 at starsky.19inch.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2011, David Gerard wrote:
>> Matthew Thomas' original ..  acerb, ... I get the feeling he is ...
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-April/032988.html
> In Ubuntu we have the openness and honesty to *do* this kind of
> testing (and do not hide the results).  We have the openness and
> honesty to have publicly accessible bug reports.  We have the openness
> and honesty to discuss issues on mailing lists.
>
> Starting with facts gives the *possibility* of having informed debate.
>
> Instead of guessing, why not just take the results as factual and at
> face value?  They are the input that enables fixing bugs.
>
> 	-Paul
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 23:06:28 -0400
> From: "Fred A. Miller"<fmiller at lightlink.com>
> To: sounder at lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: Unity: Nothing can go wrong!
> Message-ID:<4DAA5934.5070704 at lightlink.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On 04/16/2011 10:52 PM, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Fred A. Miller<fmiller at lightlink.com>  wrote:
>>> On 04/16/2011 07:23 PM, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> I do personally know several people who have dumped Ubuntu, and moved to
>>>> Debian stable.  Their argument being that they want a working system
>>>> they can use, not something that they have to triage and fiddle with
>>>> constantly.
>>> Ugh, never going back to debian stable, having 2-year old software
>>> isn't why I run linux. but I think we're going to see a mass exodus
>>> with this release.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've stayed away from 11.4 till now. I d'led the 64-bit image, burned a
>>> disk, and booted it. I had understood that Unity was default. Why did 11.4
>>> come up in Gnome 3? Do I have to install 11.4 to test it?!
>>>
>>> Fred
>>>
>> I'm curious if you downloaded the daily build or the main beta image
>> from ubuntu.com.  Either way this is a baffling development since
>> gnome3 was never a serious contender for the 11.04 default desktop in
>> my understanding.
>>
> I appologize.....I said "3" but it isn't....current Gnome. I can't find
> any option for
> a Unity startup....no options at all. The image is the 64-bit iso from
> the Ubuntu site. The
> file name is: ubuntu-11.04-beta2-desktop-amd64.iso
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 04:12:26 +0100 (BST)
> From: Paul Sladen<ubuntu at paul.sladen.org>
> To: Ubuntu Sounder<sounder at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: Releasing every six months. Unity: Nothing can go wrong!
> Message-ID:
> 	<Pine.LNX.4.21.1104170405210.26045-100000 at starsky.19inch.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2011, chris wrote:
>> I personally consider the drive to have a "release" every 6 months",
> The story line in Ubuntu is actually a *two-year cycle* between the
> Long Term Support (LTS) releases.  In the intermediate releases are
> prep-work on the way to meeting each of those LTS encapsulations.
>
> In between those is the six-month release cycle aligned from GNOME.
> For developers three months of development and three months of
> debugging is about right---much longer and people get itchy fingers
> because they're bored of debugging and want to write something new.
>
> For users, the six-month development cycle is arguably where Ubuntu
> got its following from.  It provided a balance between Debian sid and
> Debian stable; going with Ubuntu meant getting fresh stuff configured
> with sane defaults without being on the absolute bleeding edge.
>
> 	-Paul
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 04:32:56 +0100 (BST)
> From: Paul Sladen<ubuntu at paul.sladen.org>
> To: Ubuntu Sounder<sounder at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: Unity design vs. implementation: Nothing can go wrong!
> Message-ID:
> 	<Pine.LNX.4.21.1104170413380.26045-100000 at starsky.19inch.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2011, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 3:06 PM, chris<chevhq at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> The problem is when you make "big shifts" on this kind of
>> timetable, without having prepped the work in the background.
> Where Ubuntu has been successful is interative development.  The Unity
> design is an interation of the design shipped in UNR/Ubuntu 10.10;
> what is unusual in this case is that the *implemenation* has been
> written from-scratch, twice.  There are now three Unity codebases:
>
>    1. Unity Clutter/Mutter (aka Ubuntu Netbook ...<= Ubuntu 10.10)
>    2. Unity Compiz (aka Unity 3D ...>= Ubuntu 11.04
>    3. Unity Qt (aka Unity 2D ...>= Ubuntu 11.04)
>
> Of the three codebases, two have been written from-scratch over the
> last release cycle.  So whilst the the Unity interface *design* is
> continuing to evolve the code implementations have not had that same
> benefit this time around.
>
> Software crashing is an implementation issue, rather than a design
> issue.   The work being done by Ayatana is continuing to evolve on an
> interative basis;  and for the next release cycle the Unity 2D/3D
> codebases will also be iterations of what has gone before.
>
>> When i heard the reasons fedora was dumping unity,
> I am not aware of Fedora having planned to ship Unity by default.  Do
> you have links/URLs to give better context?
>
>>> I do personally know several people who have dumped Ubuntu, and moved to
>>> Debian stable. ?Their argument being that they want a workingsystem
> Strangely, "having a working system" is mostly the argument why people
> run Ubuntu over Debian Unstable.  "Horses for courses".
>
> 	-Paul
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 04:38:29 +0100 (BST)
> From: Paul Sladen<ubuntu at paul.sladen.org>
> To: Ubuntu Sounder<sounder at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: GNOME 3 in Ubuntu 11.04 (was: Unity: Nothing can go
> 	wrong!)
> Message-ID:
> 	<Pine.LNX.4.21.1104170433070.26045-100000 at starsky.19inch.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2011, Fred A. Miller wrote:
>> I've stayed away from 11.4 till now. I d'led the 64-bit image, burned a
>> disk, and booted it. I had understood that Unity was default. Why did
>> 11.4 come up in Gnome 3? Do I have to install 11.4 to test it?!
> GNOME 3 is not shipped in Ubuntu 11.04;  the user needs to explicitly
> install a PPA to use GNOME 3.  Eg. unless you actually manually ran:
>
>    sudo add-apt-repository ppa:gnome3-team/gnome3
>    sudo apt-get update
>    sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
>
> ...then you are /very/ unlikely to be running GNOME 3 accidentally!
>
> 	-Paul
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 08:36:28 +0100
> From: David Gerard<dgerard at gmail.com>
> To: Ubuntu Sounder list<sounder at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Subject: Re: 5 Out Of 11 Participants Crashed Unity In Study
> Message-ID:<BANLkTimNtaPwMaLsncZ5=C+5p1d+OCkyfA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 17 April 2011 04:04, Paul Sladen<ubuntu at paul.sladen.org>  wrote:
>
>> In Ubuntu we have the openness and honesty to *do* this kind of
>> testing (and do not hide the results). ?We have the openness and
>> honesty to have publicly accessible bug reports. ?We have the openness
>> and honesty to discuss issues on mailing lists.
>
> This is true, though not directly relevant as a response.
>
>
>> Starting with facts gives the *possibility* of having informed debate.
>> Instead of guessing, why not just take the results as factual and at
>> face value? ?They are the input that enables fixing bugs.
>
> This appears contentless.
>
> Following a true statement with a contentless one does not actually
> say anything.
>
>
> - d.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
Jeeze, you guys whinge a lot. This "contentless" statement is logical 
and makes perfect sense to me,,

Hunter