Community V. "Community

[Derek Broughton]

Mario Vukelic wrote:

> On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 00:25 -0300, Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Give me a break.  You have to know that I have a pretty good clue about
>> Ubuntu, and I never knew about "blueprints".  Dotan, who is far more
>> active than me, _also_ didn't know about blueprints.
> 
> And yet I, who probably is much less active, have known about them for
> years. I mean, it should be pretty clear that Launchpad is the central
> place to contribute to Ubuntu, and its front page menu shows the
> following items:

It's the place to _contribute_ - it's NOT the place that the average user
expects to find information about the direction Ubuntu is taking.
 
> Launchpad Home / Code / Bugs / Blueprints / Translations / Answers
> 
> Searching for "contribute" on ubuntu.com gives me the following links:
> 1. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/Contribute
> 2. http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
> 
> I didn't check, but I am pretty confident that blueprints or at least
> Launchpad are mentioned somewhere there or on the pages they link to.

I did.  Neither page mentions the blueprints, except in a brief mention
that "Brainstorm" ideas can move on to become blueprints (no link). 
Neither page mentions Launchpad.  It sure doesn't look like the entry point
for users to find out how to get involved.

What's more, I had a thought about blueprints. You tell me it's
the "official" channel for announcing upcoming changes.  In that case,
there should be a way to actually track new additions to the blueprints. 
Sorry, can't find it.  It badly needs an RSS feed.

>> but it's right handy to hide policy by
>> sticking it somewhere where nobody uninitiated will ever find it.
> 
> See, that's what I have a problem with. You wrote in some other reply
> that Ubuntu should be measured against its stated goals. Fair enough.
> But if deficiencies are found, why are you and Christopher so damn quick
> to attribute it to malice, elite cabals and whatnot? I don't see a
> reason for that.

I don't attribute it to malice at all - and I think I argued fairly strongly
against it being elite cabals.  I strongly believe that the Internet is the
prime testing ground of the adage "Never attribute to malice what can
reasonably be attributed to ignorance".  My entire argument here has been
that I see less and less interest by Ubuntu in user opinion, and while
you've argued that one can't expect developers in general to spend their
time reading the user lists, I maintain that Ubuntu can't meet its stated
goals without _somebody_ monitoring user opinion.
> 
> All I see is Ubuntu and Canonical working hard to meet their stated
> goals. 

How can they possibly meet those goals when nobody pays any attention when
users get really worked up about something like the laughable KDE4
implementation in Intrepid?

> But, again, I just don't see the reason for choosing words like "right
> handy to hide policy by sticking it somewhere where nobody uninitiated
> will ever find it." It's gotta be *somewhere*, right, and the Launchpad
> homepage is not hidden.

It's not clear to any new Ubuntu users - or even to me, after all this
discussion - that Launchpad has anything to do with Ubuntu _policy_.
 
> I don't think you demonstrated that, at all. I'd like to point out a
> summary of Brainstorm that Jono Bacon made for the devel list, to give
> devs something to work on without losing time trawling the mess that is
> Brainstorm. I linked to it in another reply in this very thread. Both
> you and Christoper chose to not acknowledge this particular post.

OK.  Acknowledged.  I just don't see it as that useful when they blithely go
ahead doing things like the KDE4 fiasco.

>> Now you've got
>> me reading the devel lists, and I'm seeing it even more clearly - user
>> feedback is irrelevant, while closed research from OEMs dictates the
>> direction of Ubuntu.
> 
> Well, devel-discuss is *specifically* the list for user - developer
> exchange. 

Since when?  Yes, lists.ubuntu.com says "users and developers", but that's
not the description that goes to news.gmane.org - which strongly suggests
somebody added that more recently. There is not much indication to _users_
that they're welcome, and considerable annoyance showing right now when
users try to add their $0.02.

> If you choose not to read or use it, I certainly am of the 
> opinion that you have no right to complain about devs not listening.

I am of the opinion that if it's really supposed to be for user-developer
exchange, it should say that clearly in the list description.
-- 
derek