build-essential

[Matt Zimmerman]

On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 02:01:31PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote:

> <quote who="Matt Zimmerman">
> > This is starting to sound like religion.
> 
> Mostly because we decided on a particular course some time ago, and now
> we're questioning that decision on totally different terms. Thus far, the
> arguments have concentrated on "why not?" rather than "why?"...

I think I have provided at least two "why" arguments:

Why for me and other developer types: I will use it
Why for our current users: They have asked for it

You may argue that our future users won't be as interested in it, but that's
no reason to ignore the needs of our current ones.

> I think this idea about "users will expect it" comes from a very different
> mindset to what we're trying to achieve with Ubuntu. It turns out that the
> other distributions (in the majority of cases) don't ship developer tools
> with their desktops. Why? Because it's not desktop material. It's just not
> relevant.

When I have to use one of these desktops, or more often fix a problem for a
user who has one, I often end up wanting gcc.  I curse the creators of the
distribution for thinking that it is clever to leave it out.

There are a number of things that we are doing that other distributions are
not, because they are the sane thing to do.

> Presence of a compiler does not define the Linux experience, much less the
> Linux desktop experience. Look at our distro peers, look at the other
> desktop operating systems on the market (Dave raised Mac OS X's
> separation, which was the original model we were aiming for).

Leaving it out doesn't prove anything.  There is demonstrable benefit to
having it there, and almost no cost whatsoever.

It's a tool, like gdb, or vim, or telnet, all of which we already install.
Tools are useful, in a straightforward, practical way, and we should include
the tools which are most generally useful.  We are not building an abstract
idea of a desktop experience; we are building a useful operating system.  It
is about the software.

> In Warty, you can easily install build-essential from the CD. In Hoary, we
> will most likely have a k-rad thing that you can click "Developer Tools" and
> get all the fun stuff. These are not onerous tasks for the people who need
> to use developer tools.

The same argument applies to every program in Warty that doesn't have a
corresponding GNOME menu entry, but we install them, and for good reason.
There is more to a Warty desktop than the desktop.  There's Linux goodness
in there!

-- 
 - mdz