[lubuntu-devel] State of PPC

Sun Jul 24 02:36:47 UTC 2016

Greetings,

I wanted to clear things up to make sure we're all on the same page.
Basically, I want to clarify what Nio and Walter have said on various
threads (if these are the points they are getting at, correct this email
if I'm wrong).

The Lubuntu team LOVES the PowerPC users. We love that you guys decide
to use Lubuntu. As Walter said, it holds a special place in his heart,
and while I haven't had the same experiences as him, i386 holds a
special place in my heart (but that's for a different day). So I'd like
to give you a little insight on how we release milestones.

We have testers, just like you (you could call them users as well) that
test the images for us. Nio tests on real hardware, I tend to test on
VMs, but I have an i386 machine I plan on using in the future, and
hardware testing is *essential* for releasing a final release of any
kind. These testers report the tests on the ISO QA Tracker[1].

We then go through the completed tests, and if there are no critical
bugs, we mark as done. We also add the bugs attached to the release
notes. It's a pretty nice system, and I really like it.

What has been happening with PPC is that people report problems on the
mailing list, say that it works, etc. but it isn't on our minds to check
the mailing list for possibly week old reports that might not be true
any more (we might have fixed bugs, emphasis on any more). So if nothing
is on the tracker for PPC, we unfortunately have to make the decision to
say, "well, because it seems like nobody tested PPC, we aren't going to
release an image." Also, sometimes that isn't even our decision. When
the global release team (for all flavors) sees that it isn't reported on
the tracker, they won't copy the ISOs to the release folder. So in a
technical way, it's not that we don't care about the mailing list, we
*literally* can't release PPC images if they aren't reported on the
tracker. I appreciate that they are tested, but please, use the latest
image (which I'm fairly confident y'all are doing, but just in case you
aren't) and report them on the tracker. If you have a problem, please
report it. I'm not going through these mailing list threads and
reporting bugs from your emails because I don't have a PowerPC machine
to confirm on (I would if I could). When we fix a bug and want to get it
into 16.04 through a verification process, nobody checks PowerPC.

And yet there are complaints when I make a statement such as:

> This is because we received *zero* testing for PowerPC in 16.04.1. If you want these images in the future, make sure they are tested. :)

The reason being, nobody has taken the time to report on the tracker,
write the bugs, and go through the process to actually bring it to our
attention and allow us to release. We appreciate that the testing is
done, just please report it more officially on the tracker.

Let me make this clear, thank you for bringing up issues and talking
about PPC on the mailing lists. Just please, someone report a bug if you
have a problem.

And when the team puts out a call for testing, please test so we know it
works. And report your results on the tracker. :)

One thing that doesn't go through our mind on release day is to cite
bugs that aren't reported. That's why, if you see bugs are reported and
are on the release notes for the previous release, if you install the
image on your PPC machine, please comment on the bug and let us know
your results. Even something generic like:

"This issue still exists on the Yakkety Alpha 2 image."

helps us a lot. Also, when you write about a problem on the mailing
list, please couple it with a bug. Then, if you have a PPC machine,
confirm that bug. :)

You may be asking, "I have a PPC machine with image X (not the Xenial
image, an example release) on it, how do I confirm bugs?" Subscribe to
the Lubuntu Packages Team bugs[2](you have to be a member of the Lubuntu
Packages Team), so you can receive a notification when someone reports a
bug. Then, you can confirm it on your PPC install. It also helps if you
go through bugs and say something like:

"This bug affects the Yakkety Alpha 2 image."

Maybe even do it on bug day[3]. ;)

We love you guys. We really do. Just please follow through with getting
bugs reported and images checked. Fritz, you said that there's a
community for PPC on Lubuntu. We have Alpha 2 coming up this week and
14.04.5 coming up the week after that. Please, ask some people in the
community to give us a hand. Even if it's one tester and one machine, if
someone with a PPC machine completes the tests on the tracker, we can
release. If not, then please don't cry when we don't release the image,
because nobody followed through. And for all the people with PPC
installs, don't, after release, say, "oh wait, hey, you forgot PPC!" and
then test, expecting us to release. That's the reason we put out calls
for testing *before* the release. To get *testing* . :)

To answer Fritz's email with the information I just gave:

> OK, I posted a request for Lubuntu PPC testers on the Apple User forum . . . sans your quoted material . . . .  I'll see if that stirs up anything . . . in a "formal" sense of the word.

Great! I'm glad! :)

> In the meanwhile I visited the QA tracker, and the report that "zero" testing has been done is not entirely accurate, as it looks like "erhard-f" filed some bug reports and passed some aspect of Lubuntu . . . which in comparison to the other options is not that much different . . . .
> 
> Looking around, the only Lubuntu Xenial QA slot that is still "testing" is now, the "daily" other "final" and the ".1" have been "archived."  Looking somewhere else the Lubuntu PPC options have a line strike through them . . . so technically the only tests left to be done are the "daily" iso???

That is because we released 16.04.1 on Thursday. We archive released slots.

> So, I'm typing this in my iBook G4, running Lu 16.04, other than the fan blowing all of the time it has to think, it's fine--ready for primetime in PPC-land.  My new phone company, the one that took over Verizon landline has my DSL throttled down to less than 2 MB/sec . . . I don't have time to play with downloading a daily, my install went well with the beta . . . for sure I mentioned this at various junctures . . . doesn't seem like there is any test to do for the beta . . . updated/upgraded as of today???

Great. :)

> I vote for kicking it out and see how many people download the PPC iso . . . it's kind of wimpy to have it be this close to release, but then, not . . . .  Hopefully there will be some boost from the sub-forum . . . .

See what I said before. We already released 16.04.1. Sorry. There's
always 16.04.2, Yakkety Alpha 2, and 14.04.5. Just look out for the
calls for testing. :)

To respond to another one of Fritz's emails:

> This is one of those "downward spiral" situations, wherein devs say, "Nobody is testing, where I'm looking for tests . . ." and PPC users respond, "Nobody is replying to my efforts to test . . ."

See what I said above.

> I have posted here numerous times about issues that have come up while I have been testing the Beta and Alpha PPC versions of Lu Xenial.  I know that I CC'd SQ and wxl here recently about the "known bugs" issue, but got no response to it. I **know** that I posted some tests for U-MATE Xenial on the actual QA for Beta . . . but, then checking back found that those posts were no longer listed, I believe when it shifted to Beta 2 or something.

My nick is tsimonq2 BTW. ;)

Do you always write a bug? If you include a bug, someone is likely to
say, "we are looking at this bug" or "we have this on our radar" but if
you just report an issue and expect someone to file a bug for you or if
you just send an email, we can't do anything about it unless someone
takes a couple minutes and files a bug.

> But, I am pressed for time in the big city life, and so don't have the time to go through each of the testing steps of the QA, and/or the filing of bug reports, so that then a comment can be mentioned, etc.

I'm sorry for calling you out on this, but you have time to write an
email saying, "I'm having X Y Z issue" explaining it in detail, but you
don't have the time to go to launchpad.net, find the package, click
"Report a bug," and say the exact same thing?

About the QA, I understand, but it's then up to other PPC users to test
the milestone images, look at the bugs, and maybe say, "hey, I remember
Fritz saying something on the mailing list, let me confirm this issue"
and report it on the tracker.

> As could be witnessed on the ubuntu Apple user subforum, the Alpha1 guys are breathing new life into PPC, and perhaps don't know that "the devs are only looking at the QA tracker for guidance about how PPC is being 'tested.'"  Many people have given up on the devs over the years I have been playing with PPC linux . . . because the devs aren't looking elsewhere for their feedback . . . .

Well maybe it's because nobody takes the time to report anything in the
proper places instead of just on the social networks and forums. If they
just took five minutes to do that, everybody could be thankful. So don't
blame us, that's not our issue. That's an issue that everybody who says
that should help fix.

And for the record, when I post release announcements on Facebook,
Reddit, Twitter, and elsewhere, *I* respond when users say, "I'm having
an issue with X Y Z." I either link them to a bug report saying, "we're
working on it," I tell them, "I can confirm this and I filed a bug,
thank you so much for telling us about this," I ask them, "can you
clarify Z for me?," or I say, "I'm really sorry, but I can't confirm
this given your current setup. Could you please file a bug?
https://launchpad.net/link/to/package/+filebug." I just make sure that
they know we're listening and understand. In fact, could you link me to
some of these forums? Maybe I should link the release announcements
there and respond to responses on that. I could also look at some
threads and instruct people on filing bugs and reporting issues that a
bunch of people are having in a way we can see it.

And the fact of the matter is that when people complain, "the devs
aren't paying attention!" or "the devs don't care," we do. We want to
make sure that Lubuntu is better for everyone. We just don't have the
time to scour the internet for people claiming, "it works!" or "we have
this problem" on release day to be able to follow through where the
people writing didn't. We want to release. So the time that person spent
grumbling about the problem and how it is a big issue could be time
spent reporting it. All it takes is *one* person reporting a problem in
the correct channels to get it fixed. In fact, take a look at our
release announcement:

> How do I get support?
> Our support channel is #lubuntu on freenode IRC. If you don’t have an IRC client, click the link in the earlier sentence, type in a nickname, press start, state your question and press Enter to speak. We also have the lubuntu-users mailing list. You do not need to subscribe to the mailing list to ask a question. Send an email to lubuntu-users AT lists DOT ubuntu DOT com.
> 
> How do I contribute?
> We always need more help! If you would like to contribute, head over to our Getting Involved page. We need help with Reporting bugs, Translations, Tests/QA, Code & patches, Artwork, Documentation, and Marketing/Press. If you have any questions about contributing, please join #lubuntu-devel on Freenode or email the lubuntu-devel mailing list at lubuntu-devel AT lists DOT ubuntu DOT com.

I think I've gotten the point across and I hope we're on the same page.
Sorry if this rant seems a bit harsh, but it's the reality that we are
facing today. Let me know if you have any questions.

[1] http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
[2] https://bugs.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-packaging
[3] http://lubuntu.me/lubuntu-bug-day/

-- 
Simon Quigley
tsimonq2 at ubuntu.com
tsimonq2 on Freenode