sane

[Willy Hamra]

sorry for that, but following a top-post.
the case here is like a doctor trying to advise his patient for better
health, "don't eat this type of food, eat that. do NOT mix these 2
types of food..." "do i have to learn all these? if i'm not ok, i'll
just pay you a visit".
well.. this CAN work, and the doctor will surely save him everytime,
but does in reality anyone risk his health that way? why would someone
choose to suffer from health problems occasionally?
Steven can prevent most of his computer issues by doing what we tell
him, but he refuses, he wants to be the chemist with
radioactive/explosive materials that wants to use them the way HE
wants, without any knowledge in chemistry.
personally, i gave up a year ago, i never bothered posting anything to
him anymore because he was flat-out refusing to stay far from programs
known to be too much for him, or listenng to the advise of reading CLI
books.
i have been an expert in a Windows system for 5 years. i considered
myself a genius in fixing them. until i got Linux, and i had to spend
weeks of downloading books and reading them to get a grasp of the
basics, then spent hours upon hours everyday in the #kubuntu channel
on IRC, mostly lurking to get more and more info about this system,
how it works, the most common problems, common advises given, until i
decided to join this list, and it proved to be my heaven. in short,
people HAVE to study for anything this complicated before using it,
and bothering with it. if a book is too boring for you, well... you're
too boring for us as well.

2009/8/21 Bruce MacArthur <bmacasuru at fastmail.us>:
> Hello, Steven --
>
> I top-post in general reply to your last two messages.
>
> Dis-like -- even "hate" -- me as you may choose.  That is entirely your
> choice.  But I strongly advise you to avoid using such words as "sadist"
> and "killer" -- especially when you have previously issued threats of
> violence that are only slightly "conditional".
>
> IF you knew how to read PROPERLY, you would know that I have NOT been
> the least bit abusive of you on the list.  I did not WANT to be
> personally abusive.  All that I did was tell the TRUTH -- and SINCERELY
> attempt to present to you a constructive alternative approach to (and
> understanding of) learning that MIGHT have worked for YOU.  If you
> disagree, I request that you give me some specifics (as opposed to mere
> feelings).
>
> In any event, you would be wise to simply avoid using my name (in ANY
> form) in any future messages.  PLEASE do not ACT as a fool would act in
> this specific respect.
>
>
> On Thursday 20 August 2009 08:10:28 pm Steven Vollom wrote:
>> On Saturday 15 August 2009 12:37:12 pm John L Vifian wrote:
>> Trim
>> >
>> > Some of the things you have had the opportunity to learn in the last
> bout
>> > of emails are:It is not a response of anger, just my opinion
>> >
>> > The difference in left and right clicking a file in dolphin
>>
>> Thank you I do this now.
>>
>> > what 'less' is and how to use it in a rudimentary fashion
>>
>> I have tried to use less, but it never has provided me with anything I
> can
>> understand.
>>
>> > How to turn line numbers on in 'less'
>>
>> But I could not understand the less nor when or how to use it.
>>
>> > How to turn line numbers on in kate
>>
>> I do that and am very grateful, it helps a lot.
>>
>> > when to use sudo and when to use kdesudo
>>
>> I believe I use them properly now.
>>
>> > how to search this list's archives with google
>>
>> I don't think I will ever be able to do that about computer issues.  I
> haven't
>> given up, I try every day.  I get diverted by links, and don't seem to
> know
>> when to apply the link or not.  If you click on every link in an
> explanation
>> and every link in every link from the initial page you go to, there
> become
>> more links than there is time to read them.  I have not yet figured out
> how you
>> do that task.  Certainly you can't follow them all; there is always
> new links
>> in the next page.  Almost every time I search a topic, the first thing
> done in
>> perhaps the first sentence is a link to something to read before
> continuing
>> with the page that is supposed to teach you what you need to know.
> When I
>> click on the link, in or close to the first sentence there is a link to
>> something else.  In both cases there are many links in the lines that
> follow.
>> I become confused very fast.
>>
>> > what the command cd does
>>
>> I change directory when I remember it is needed.  Using the command
> line is a
>> very new thing for me.  I don't get enough practice.
>>
>> > what a path is
>>
>> I know what a path is and use it all the time.
>>
>> > what happens when you open kate with a non-existent file name
>>
>> I may understand this now, but it is new memory.
>>
>> > what happens when you run less with a non-existent file name
>>
>> I still don't understand the use of less.  And after you read Bruce's
> last two
>> emails, you might understand how difficult it is to re-ask a question.
>> Apparently I am required to understand the first explanation.  So what
> do you
>> do if you still don't understand?
>> >
>> > you should be able to open a file in a different directory with less
> or
>> > kate. For instance there is a file named dpkg.log which is in the
> 'log'
>> > directory which in turn is in the 'var' directory.
>>
>> Is there a way to trace a path going backward?  How?
>>
>> > You should be able to
>> > construct a command line to open it using both less and kate.  Try
> it.
>> > Note you don't need to use either kdesudo or sudo and shouldn't.
>>
>> I am confident I can now do that in kate, but it is new understanding.
> I still
>> don't understand less.  If I am correct, I only need to use kdesudo or
> sudo in
>> kate or dolphin is if I want to make changes.  I can read the data.
> In the
>> past, I have read documents using the word processor.  That I have
> used a lot.
>> Kate is something very new to me.  I still don't understand less.
> When I read
>> the help on it, I became more confused.
>> >
>> > This is all very basic stuff, and you need to figure out a way to make
> it
>> > understandable to yourself
>> >
>> > > He said open kmail and type 's' and then what I want and it would
> locate
>> > > what I need from my email records.  That would be great if I knew
> where
>> > > in the kmail application I type the command in.
>>
>> Now that I have found how to use the 's' instruction, sure, I feel a
> bit
>> stupid, but when it was first explained, I had not yet used the search
> line in
>> the kmail opening page.  Additionally it sounded like a command line
>> instruction.  It never occurred to me that by simply pressing the 's'
> on the
>> keyboard it would or even should open a window.  I have made enough
> mistakes
>> and been warned enough to be careful when you type a command.
>>
>> Perhaps there are other times I have typed a letter command without
> needing to
>> type it in a search line or command line, or any place, then hit enter
> to get
>> the result.  When I got the 's' to work, it was an exciting surprise
> and made
>> me laugh.  I was very happy.
>>
>> I realize now that I have been through some pretty advanced procedures
> with
>> your help.  When I learn that this stuff is beginning information, I
> amaze
>> myself for what I have done.
>> >
>> > You don't type it in anything.  The one caveat being that if you
> have more
>> > than one window open in kmail that the active window has to be the
> one
>> > showing your mail folders.  Just type 's'.
>> >
>> > You can also do the same by clicking "Edit" in the menubar and then
>> > clicking "Find Messages..."
>>
>> I found Find, but not Find Messages.  It is new for me.  I will
> experiment.
>> Thanks!
>>
>> > or you can use the icon with the binoculars
>>
>> I couldn't find any Binoculars; is it on the kmail open window?
>>
>>
>> > which for me is on the same line is the existing search field.
>> >
>> > > When I typed in the word 's kdesudo' in the search line and
> pressed
>> > > enter, your email came up.  I was expecting to see an email that
>> > > contained the word kdesudo.  I know there are some in my saved
> emails.
>> > > That is an example of how I would like to use the search bar.  Can
> it be
>> > > set up to do as I prefer?
>>
>> So you understand, I was not trying to enter the command kdesudo, I
> was trying
>> to search for the things in the folders that talked about kdesudo.  I
> wanted
>> to confirm what I knew or should know about kdesudo.  I realize now
> that when
>> you don't have a folder highlighted, the 's' instruction does nothing.
> Before
>> I typed kdesudo in the search line, and I was interpreting the term
> search
>> like I could search the folders, I typed in an 's' and pressed enter.
> Nothing
>> happened that led to what I would have expected. Kdesudo was my second
> try for
>> information.
>>
>> I am way ahead of thousands of silent people unwilling to be called
> stubborn
>> or stupid by asking dumb questions.  But I will bet that most of those
> who
>> need the list are not using it for the embarrassment they will have to
> endure.
>> You are around knowledgeable computer people.  I am around people who
> want to
>> learn how to send an email, or find the answer to a question.  They
> would love
>> to do what I am doing, but don't want to experience the rudeness of
> Bruce.
>> >
>> > To my knowledge the search field only searches the subject line of
> the
>> > emails in the current folder, and can't be configured to do
> otherwise.  It
>> > also has the annoying habit of opening the current email in a new
> window
>> > regardless if it matches the search.
>>
>> All of you who know my reputation on the list are probably unaware how
> far I
>> am from basic information, just because I have tackled many
> complicated tasks,
>> with an enormous amount of help, I agree, but I, like one of you has
> said,
>> have built my own computer since getting on the list.  I have
> installed
>> numerous applications using the CLI.  When I started, I did not know
> how to
>> even open a shell or know the many different terms used for naming it.
> And if
>> you paid any attention at all to my description of the use of Google,
> there
>> are millions of people who are confused about when to go on the link
> as
>> opposed to continuing reading the page for your answer.  There is no
> end to
>> the links to follow in the first line or two of any link.  If you read
> all the
>> links on the first line of a page, you will never be able to get to the
> second
>> link of any page either, then the third.  There isn't enough years in
> a
>> lifetime to get to the end.
>>
>> For the life of me, I don't know how you do that, other than you know
> what the
>> link is about and don't need to divert.  For me and so many others
> every link
>> is something new, so you can never get to the end of the transfers.
>> >
>> > >...  Eventually I get
>> > > it, your way too, it just takes a lot longer with a lot of
> repetition.
>> > > In reality, if you bang on a square peg enough times, eventually
> the
>> > > corners will come off and it will fit in a round hole.
>> >
>> > Steven do you learn by doing?  Do you learn by observation?  Are you
>> > willing to spend time learning things even if you don't immediately
> see any
>> > useful application of the stuff you are learning?  Would you be
> interested
>> > in some sort of tutoring?
>>
>> Absolutely, that is about the only way I can learn.  That is how I
> have
>> learned the little I know.  As Bruce would say, it takes 25 times for
> me to
>> learn.  Well that is an exaggeration, but without instruction that you
>> understand, it takes repetition, so your mind can grasp what must be
> happening
>> when you do the work.
>>
>> If, for instance, there had been practical need for me to remember and
>> understand how to change directories using cd, the activity would have
> settled
>> in, but until I understood that cd stood for change directory and that
> there
>> was a difference between the term directory, folder and file, it was
> just
>> something I did, because someone told me to do it.  An inexperienced
> person
>> sees a manila folder in his mind when any of the three terms are used,
> until
>> he understands their function.
>>
>> My daughter uses a computer daily.  She has a very important job.  But
> they
>> use Windows.  She knows how to get what she wants and needs and yet
> only
>> understands a small part of what I have learned.  I crave what you
> offered.
>> When I search a thing like cd, it is explaining how to change
> directories when
>> I didn't have the foggiest understanding of what I was changing.
>>
>> When I learned to understand cd, I had installed an application called
>> avimerge.  I had to learn how to cd, just to put the pieces together.
> When I
>> understood that -o meant output and -i meant input, I no longer forgot
> the
>> necessary command to merge avi's.  When I learned that there could be
> no
>> spaces between the letters of a command, excepting you put the words
> in
>> quotes, I learned how that must be done, and the space that is
> necessary
>> between the quotes separating two quotes.  But when I really learned,
> and
>> after several edits in the command, was when the numbers started
> flying.  When
>> that happened, I laughed for more than 5 minutes, and that is a lot of
> joy.
>> With the little I know about computers I can make the commands for
> merging and
>> splitting without thinking.  When I install Jaunty, there is but a
> brief pause
>> when the Sun agreement comes up.  For a while it was experimenting to
> get the
>> right item highlighted and approved, but after about a hundred
> installations
>> it gets pretty rote.  Same with kmail.  Wget is one thing I am still
> confused
>> about, but I have used it several times by cut and pasting.  I am sure
> in time
>> I will understand it too.
>>
>> When I was editing this email, I got the inclination to include the
> previous
>> paragraph.  To read for better understanding, take a look at the last
> line of
>> the second paragraph above.  It should have continued from
> there.------
>> Sometimes it appeared to be a folder, sometimes it appeared to be a
> file.  No
>> distinction came early enough in training to keep me from looking like
> a fool
>> when already I have installed applications or packages or programs,
> all that I
>> had to learn about, when all were programs in windows.  Repaired
> broken
>> applications, reinstalled the OS.
>>
>> And right now with my limited knowledge, I have a reasonably stable
> copy of
>> Karmic working on this computer and can install Jaunty on my newer
> computer in
>> just 14 minutes including installing the necessary updates.  I can
> configure
>> kmail as fast as any other human, I have done it so many times, but it
> is
>> broken right now, and the only solution I know is to reinstall it.
> The ISP
>> is working properly and configuration is perfect, but the computer will
> not
>> communicate with the ISP.  And although it has been explained before,
> I do not
>> know which files and folders to save so that I won't lose my emails if
> I
>> reinstall or my folders which are more important to me, or my
> addressbook.  If
>> and when I ask for help on this issue, I will probably annoy a very
> good
>> friend, Goh Lip who walked me through it and Eberhard too.  I am so
> sorry, but
>> I lost my records in one of the reinstalls and will have to try the
> archives
>> for the list, to see if I can avoid re-asking the questions.  And
> Bruce, who
>> shouldn't be wasting his time on my posts will probably there with a
> two page
>> scathing.
>>
>> The last time I needed to use kate to edit the sources I was able to
> correct
>> the problem, but quite frankly was experimenting a bit when I knew it
> was
>> dangerous, because I was in sudo, and corrected the mistake by
> comparing the
>> line with the error, to other lines in the list. I didn't know if I
> could
>> delete anything without screwing things up.  I didn't know if removing
> the '>'
>> that was all it took to fix the problem or would cause permanent damage
> to the
>> application.  I just gambled and removed it.  Shortly after I did
> that, I got
>> a reply to an email where I showed line 58, which I might add changed
> from the
>> original line 62 when the problem first surfaced.  It wasn't until
> today that I
>> realized that the sources.list was the same as the kpackagekit GUI
> version of
>> the same directory or folder, I am still not sure which it is,
> directory or
>> folder.
>>
>> You have no idea how many people there are in worse condition than me
> and want
>> to change that situation.  How many of you would want to be openly
> embarrassed
>> like I was with Bruce?  How many of you would even ask a basic
> question?  You
>> are fortunate, you can not be humiliated like that by a practicing
> sadist.
>> You have too much experience and knowledge to have to face him.
>> >
>> > If you are going to continue using the command line you really need
> to have
>> > some basic grasp of what the commands are doing, or you should stop
> using
>> > the command line at all.
>>
>> But by quitting just because it is difficult would destroy one of my
> main
>> objectives.  I have learned more than you know and less than you
> assume.  I
>> have been working blind most of the time.  And when I ask too many,
> what you
>> all consider stupid questions, a Bruce surfaces and tries to break my
> spirit.
>>
>> With my minute knowledge, I use the CLI 99.9% of the time.  And now
> that I
>> know that sources.list is sources.list instead of sources.lst, and
> that it is
>> the same as the one in the GUI, I will start learning how to enter
> PPA's and
>> get Keys using the command line, until that becomes easy.
>>
>> It won't be another year and I will be more like you than I am like
> myself.
>> That is providing I don't get filtered from help.
>>
>> > Most things can be accomplished in the GUI and it
>> > should be extremely rare that  you would actually need to use the
> command
>> > line.
>> I believe that most users are incompetent because of the GUI.  The GUI
> make
>> everything easier,  except to fix something.  And for those who don't
> have much
>> extra money, they can't afford technical help.  I wouldn't have had a
> chance
>> without this list.
>> >
>> > > Is the search I need a boulean (sp) search.  I heard that was the
> google
>> > > browser search type?
>>
>> When I used that term, I was under the impression that Google used a
> boulean
>> search, and it was the best.  I suspected it might be an excellent way
> to
>> search through emails, and if it was an application, perhaps I could
> add it to
>> my computer.
>>
>> Bruce and Donn appear to be important servants of the list, but they
> do not
>> measure up to the quality of the others, at least not to someone of
> lesser
>> experience.   I personally don't want any future help from either of
> them.
>> They are too cruel.  Thanks if you are willing to continue to help me.
> I so
>> appreciate most of you.  This tutorial idea is great, but remember I
> have
>> tried a bit of that too, and when I did, even it was too far over my
> head.
>> Nonetheless, I have learned a lot from the List, and I think I might
> be able
>> to handle them now.
>>
>> When many of you were where I am, you were working on 25mhz computers
> with 8mb
>> of ram.  You barely needed a hard drive, and are partly responsible
> for
>> creating some of the confusing terminology that exists as common
> today.
>> Consider how difficult it might be to enter when I did.  I suppose some
> would be
>> with 200mhz computers and 35mb of ram and a 500mb HDD.  But you get
> my point.
>>
>> I am very happy with where I am  today.  I am planning to move back to
> San
>> Diego in the near future.  When there, I will teach my children and
>> grandchildren what I know to try help them through the learning curve.
> I am
>> so very grateful to you who have a heart and a little compassion and
> not so
>> much killer instinct in your nature.
>>
>> Much love and gratitude,
>>
>> Steven
>> >
>> > ??? what are you trying to ask here?
>> >
>> > John Vifian
>>
>> --
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>
>
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-- 
Willy K. Hamra
Manager of Hamra Information Systems