Beta 8.10 released

[Emanoil Kotsev]

Steve, hello,
and hello to everybody here on this list again.

Steve, I had a similar discussion about the linux kernel on the linux usb-devel list, 'cause they said they don't support older kernels. "old" they mean is the recent stable release. I spent few hours in analyzing what they say and found out they are right from their point of view.

I think it is important that things move forward, so they have to move forward.

You are right when you say, they don't write things in "clear text" and few friends of mine did install kde 4 without reading what actually they get into. I read few discussion about kde 4 few months ago installed it in a vmware and came to the conclusion, that it's too early for me to move to kde4. As in windows world there has to come "service pack 4" so the thing gets stable and usable, so I think kde 4.4 is the point where I'll think about moving to it. Indeed kde 3.4 was the first version of kde I was happy with.

About the 3D stuff - it's not a linux/kde/kubuntu problem. I am one of those who are discriminated by intel chips, which do not support 3d on two monitors i.e. resolution above 2048x2048, so it's mainly a driver, manufacturer issue, especially because GL stuff is partly proprietary, but as you say you are experienced user you should know this already, so we can not blame the community, because they do what they can.

What I think you are right with, is when you say developers and maintainers do underestimate our experience. I hate it when developers make statements not knowing the background, so guys please think that you just may be writing to someone that has more experience with hard/software then you. If we put wuestions here then it is for some good reason and calling us "trolls" or whatever is not pretty kind.

In fact there are many examples where "improvments" turn to be "misprovments" so you have to be able to accept more then one (yours) opinion and think about if the things we say do not make at least a little sense.

What I'm missing is a central support place, but well linux is for free - the developers/maintainers say if you want linux support, you have to pay for it and few distributions offer it, including kubuntu I think.

I also think (based on about 9-10 years linux expereience) that (if you are not forced to use RadHat or SuSE licensed distros) the base way to go is k/ubuntu for notebooks and desktops and debian stable on servers.

The way debian organises their distros is excelent and mostly because they have something called stable which it is really stable.

I've tried debian testing on my notebook but there are things changing too often and at few points things broke, so I hope k/ubuntu offers a stable moderate release for desktop systems. The fact it is debian based makes it more atractive to me.

Steve, I think you are mostly right, but at some points I give the right to your oponents, but who am I anyway to judge on it. I just wanted to say that developers are pretty neglecting and too self confident, unable to understand the other point of view.
And this is a _big_ problem, because I don't see how mere users would start using linux distros this way. I think everybody would agree that it would be nice to have more linux users out there - how if developers and maintainers do not take care of our needs?
How if you don't think ahead of what we (users) need? 
I'm also sick of permanently fixing something and crossing fingers when I' doing an upgrade, not because I do not make a backup, but because I think some smart developer could tested something more precisely.

Anyway arguing around is the thing we all do not need and I hope both sides would agree there is a need of improvement and here comes the truth. You guys who develop stuff and maintain it _should_ agree that _you_ did not do your job at 100%.
Then you have to learn from the error and improve next time. A user can not do anything about it, so stop telling me I'm or Steve or someone else is blaming, because we have the right to and we, at least I don't make it for fun.

Steve, I still do not understand why you picked up 8.10 beta??? and then complain about. If it's beta it's pretty clear it's not someething for the everyday life?

regards

--- On Tue, 10/7/08, Steve Lamb <grey at dmiyu.org> wrote:

> From: Steve Lamb <grey at dmiyu.org>
> Subject: Re: Beta 8.10 released
> To: "Kubuntu Help and User Discussions" <kubuntu-users at lists.ubuntu.com>
> Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 2:49 AM
> Graham Todd wrote:
> > I can believe that many of the points you raise have
> not been
> > addressed, but without changing your distribution to
> something like
> > Debian, they will never be addressed until a volunteer
> somewhere can
> > devote time to do it.  People making remarks such as
> "I do not want to
> > be a beta tester" lose sight of what kind of an
> operating system Linux
> > really is: new developments are put out for us to try
> and make better,
> > so in a sense if you want to use Linux you ARE going
> to be a beta
> > tester.
> 
>     And this is the problem.  Again, this has been
> rebutted, by me, days ago.
> 
>     Just read a few URLs for me, ok?
> 
> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy
> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu
> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/desktopedition
> 
>     Tell me where in there it says we're "ARE
> going to be a beta tester."  I'm
> curious since the word beta does not appear on any of those
> pages.  However
> phrases like "ready-to-use" and "just
> works" do appear.
> 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/1998/10/msg00077.html
> 
>     Notice the distribution, the from and the date and
> consider what you're
> telling me to do quoted above.  If I wanted to do testing
> and development work
> I would still be running Debian on my (now 3) machines onto
> which I've
> installed KUbuntu.  I am on KUbuntu because I got really
> tired of having to
> fight with my display drivers to get 3D working.  Tired of
> fighting with X to
> get a display at all working.  Tired of things not working.
>  However Debian
> would be the only choice for my servers.  It still is, in
> fact, on the two I
> maintain.
> 
>     So, now to put a blunt point on it.  I am  KUbuntu user
> who has stated
> here he's personally happy to use 4.1.1 on two of his
> machines, who has 10
> years of experience in Debian, who is pointing out that in
> spite of his
> personal experience in bugs, software design and
> long-standing experience in
> Linux that the current move to KDE 4.x by KUbuntu is wrong.
>  You are telling
> that person that, in spite of the word "beta" nor
> "testing" anywhere on the
> main public pages of the Ubuntu project he should expect
> beta testing as the
> mere price of running Linux and if he really, really wants
> to improve
> things... to go to Debian?
> 
>     I hope you will consider how that sounds.  I know you
> didn't know my
> history with Linux.  I don't like bringing it up since
> most people take it as
> a dick-waving contest.  But honestly, of all the
> presumptions people are
> making about my stance being inexperienced, unwilling to
> test and unwilling to
> try KDE4 are the furthest from the truth.  Unfortunately
> when that is
> understood you see that most of the pat answers that people
> give fall flat.
> 
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