[kubuntu-devel] Muon Discover

[Achim Bohnet]

On Mittwoch 08 Jan 2014 16:28:07 Aleix Pol wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Harald Sitter 
<apachelogger at ubuntu.com>wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Aleix Pol <aleixpol at kde.org> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Jonathan Riddell <jr at jriddell.org>
> > 
> > wrote:
> > >> On Tue, Jan 07, 2014 at 02:25:27PM -0800, Scarlett Clark wrote:
> > >> >    Is this the default package manager? Or Muon?
> > >> >    
> > >> >    I need all ways to bring this up eg.. command line. I have so far
> > 
> > in
> > 
> > >> > a
> > >> > 
> > >> >    search from KickOff and KickOff->Programs->Muon Discover
> > >> 
> > >> We have both Muon and Muon Discover installed by default.  Arguably
> > >> this
> > >> is application duplication and very un-ubuntu.
> > >> 
> > >> Does anyone have an opinion of whether Muon Discover is mature enough
> > >> to
> > >> stand along and for Muon to be removed from the images?
> > >> 
> > >> You can access it by KickOff -> Computer -> Software Centre too which
> > 
> > I'd
> > 
> > >> expect to be the primary method.
> > >> 
> > >> Jonathan
> > >> 
> > >> --
> > >> kubuntu-devel mailing list
> > >> kubuntu-devel at lists.ubuntu.com
> > >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
> > > 
> > > I would say that the decision is not really about maturity but about
> > > user
> > > target. I don't think an end-user should understand all the semantics
> > 
> > that
> > 
> > > Muon Package Manager exposes. If a user has the knowledge to use Muon PM
> > 
> > he
> > 
> > > has the knowledge to install it from Discover or even apt-get.
> > 
> > Indeed. The argument never was that software center or discover
> > weren't mature enough, but that they do not deal in packages. They
> > deal in applications (read: in things that have a desktop file). So if
> > you want or need to install a package (say 'bzip2') you won't be able
> > to do that with discover because of the way it is designed.
> > 
> > Personally I always found this argument silly because it implies that
> > a user knows the difference between Muon and Muon Discover and will
> > choose the correct tool for the job at hand <- so very very very
> > unlikely...
> > 
> > Really there are three groups of people we have to consider:
> > a) the user who only wants to installation an application and will not
> > ever want to install a package (by himself, support cases excluded
> > becasue those usually will offer concrete apt-get commands anyway)
> > b) the user who perhaps could be called a sysadmin and wants to
> > explicitly manage packages, but likes to do it in a GUI
> > c) the user who likes direct control but feels that a GUI slows him down
> > 
> > And here is the thing.
> > A user of group a) won't be able to graps the concept of either b) or
> > c) and have a very hard time trying to manage 'apps'.
> > A user of group b) will be able to deal with the usage paradigm of a)
> > but might not be able to do what c) does.
> > A user of group c) will be able to do manage 'apps' and 'packages' given a
> > gui.
> > 
> > Looking at the presented use cases there is no reason why muon (the
> > package manager) needs to be part of the default install. You could
> > technically even remove apt-get itself. Because b) will be able to use
> > muon-discover to install muon and c) will be able to use muon-discover
> > to install muon to install apt-get. Of course latter is not very
> > convenient so one can make an argument for keeping apt-get regardless
> > (plus I doubt you could remove it anyway ;))
> > 
> > Long story short: if someone wants a gui package manger, they can
> > manually install muon via discover or apt-get, absolutely no reason
> > why we'd need it in the default install.
> > 
> > HS
> > 
> > --
> > kubuntu-devel mailing list
> > kubuntu-devel at lists.ubuntu.com
> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
> 
> FWIW, bzip should probably be installable from Discover, since it's an
> end-user application.
> What the user won't be able to find in discover is libbz2. Arguably, -dev
> packages should be available in discover as well.

FWIW I would disagree here.  People using the command line with bzip or 
compiler&co, using -dev pkgs, can be expected to use muon or apt-get.
(let's call muon the export-mode of muon-discover ;-) Start muon and exit
muon-discover when the tobe-done 'Export Mode' button is pressed ;-) )

On the other hand: try to search for android or kdeconnect or 'network 
management' in muon-discover: it finds nothing, but that's wrong IMHO. The 
target group of muon-discover doesn't know if it's a plasma/kded plugin or a 
application (aka binary in /usr/...bin with desktop file).  

IMHO as it is, muon-discover misses an important group of 'looks-like-an-
application' that's important for newbies, so there is still a need for muon.


Achim
> 
> Aleix

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