Investigation workflow improvements with other tools

Kapil Thangavelu kapil.thangavelu at
Thu Jan 10 01:26:00 UTC 2013

Hi Robbie,

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Robbie Williamson <robbie at> wrote:

> So I appreciate the goal of this discussion and I also agree we should
> not alienate github users, but the current approach seems to be working
> fine, imo.  Is there really a *huge* deviation from the github process

versus the lp one...or is this just another opensource
> ideology/vim-vs-emacs-type discussion?

There isn't a huge deviation in process, it is about inclusiveness and

More to the point vs the flamewar/ideology discussion, we're trying to see
if we can do something about it.

> I recognize git/github is "where it's at", but I don't think a switch is
> worth the cost of having to migrate all the currently tracked bugs, as
> well as change juju to pull from github instead of lp.  Also, this move
> would affect the ability for someone to authenticate themselves as
> trusted juju user/charmer via existing identities in LP, thus breaking
> plans to allow more charmstore interaction by users and charmers via the
> 'juju' cli.
Much of the desire and intent for this is easing the adoption by charm
creators by allowing them to use the tools and languages their already
familiar with. Its not necessarily about migration of everything whole
cloth or even anything for that matter. Breaking it down the charm universe
comes out to three Cs all of which should be considered
independently. Consumption, Creation, and Curation.

Consumption - we got this one handled, charms are in the charm
server/store, juju users can get them easily. We should add the charm
search feature currently used by the gui and the jitsu search command line
tool to juju to make this story even better. The charm server provides a
key abstraction to whatever the backend origin is from a usage perspective.

Creation/Publishing - Is a sore point atm imo. Juju is well received at
confs and talks, but surveying those same audiences for users of bzr/lp is
a negligible intersection. Its a huge turn off that inspite of juju's
inherent language neutrality that we force people to use different vcs and
collaboration tools then what their already using.

Its always been in the plans for juju since the first line of code that it
would allow for alternate vcs origins, via some form of juju publish/upload
charm functionality.The brainstorming on the backend work on making this
viable is what kicked off this discussion. At a simple level that could
just be upload local directory ignoring vcs into the charm server but then
it requires identity/oauth to lp.

A higher level integration form that would be more feature complete with
the lp is publishing a vcs branch, which gets the identity associated with
the vcs branch, and with commits to branch rolling forward on charm version.
ie publishing would get the
owner/namespace narkisr.

None of these creation alternatives require launchpad migration, they just
be additional ingress points to the charm server or even mirrored over to
lp as an effect of publishing.

Curation -  Curation is probably the most interesting bit from an lp usage
or migration perspective. We have an lp group ~charmers that does the
quality/code review on official charms and updates them for emerging best
practices etc. For this usage we rely on lp for bug tracking, merge
proposals, identity, etc here.  Its important to keep in mind that curation
is performed only around official charms. All of those have tools have
direct analogues in github, some better some worse then lp tools, but all

> The real issue seems to be LP not supporting 'git', and this is
> something the Canonical LP team has looked into and even made plans for
> implementing, but just hasn't had the bandwidth to get started on.
> Given launchpad is opensource, I think a focus on helping with this
> effort would do much more for both juju *and* Ubuntu, than pushing
> charms to github.

LP not supporting git is a red herring. Its about the location and tools of
the prospective audience that we want to engage with.



> -Robbie
> On 01/09/2013 01:52 PM, Surenkumar Nihalani wrote:
> > +1 for github. Makes barrier to entry very low.
> >
> > On Jan 9, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Brandon Holtsclaw <me at
> > <mailto:me at>> wrote:
> >
> >> I dont have alot of time to reply now but would like to add my +1 as
> >> well for Github. I've gone over this a few times publicly on IRC so my
> >> stance should be pretty well known but I'll come back and add some
> >> bullet points as I have a bit of time.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Marco Ceppi <marco at
> >> <mailto:marco at>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     Hi Jorge,
> >>
> >>     I think Github is a great place to look for developers given how
> >>     many upstreams keep their projects there and the overall existing
> >>     community of cultivated contributors. I can see it being a
> >>     potential sore spot in the near future when trying to woo new
> >>     contributors and having a seemingly superfluous roadblock like
> >>     learning an entire new workflow stand in the way of potential new
> >>     charm contributors.
> >>
> >>     Having experienced this (and sadly still struggling with this at
> >>     times) when I first got interested in contributing to Ubuntu, I
> >>     found that learning Bazaar after many years as a Git power user
> >>     was far more tedious than I would have wanted. Thankfully, I
> >>     conquered Bazaar but I fear others might not be as diligent.
> >>
> >>     In short +1 from me and I'll get the talks of workflow by
> >>     submitting the first pull request:
> >>
> >>
> >>     Thanks,
> >>     Marco Ceppi
> >>
> >>
> >>     On 01/04/2013 01:44 PM, Jorge O. Castro wrote:
> >>>     Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>>     I just got off a quick call with Kapil T, Mark Mims, Juan Negron,
> and
> >>>     Clint Byrum where we were discussion some of the workflow issues
> with
> >>>     charms and how we can lower the bar to entry to getting people to
> be
> >>>     able to hack on charms. This quickly turned into what I'll
> summarize
> >>>     as: "Why aren't we using github, a bunch of people always ask me
> after
> >>>     a talk if we can use github and it's a turn off for people that
> they
> >>>     have to learn lp/bzr."
> >>>
> >>>     Since this is the sort of thing that will have many opinions and
> >>>     quickly grew out of the scope of a normal status call I thought it
> >>>     prudent to bring to the list for discussion.
> >>>
> >>>     We do have our charms mirrored on <
>> and we have had
> >>>     people submit pull requests. The problem is that we have two
> workflows
> >>>     for submitting charms, the default launchpad process, and the
> github
> >>>     one that we added after people kept asking about it.
> >>>
> >>>     So now the question I'd like to ask is:
> >>>
> >>>     "Do we feel that not using git and/or github is detrimental to our
> growth?"
> >>>
> >>>     On top of that we use Launchpad for code review and identity. We
> know
> >>>     that the OpenStack community is using gerrit for
> >>> and they are happy with it. We also
> have
> >>>     to think about how this fits with the store in terms of curating
> the
> >>>     store and so on.
> >>>
> >>>     I'm sure people will be really passionate about this so ...
> discuss!
> >>>
> >>>     --
> >>>     Jorge Castro
> >>>     Canonical Ltd.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>     My 2 cents is: Many cloud oss projects use github, including things
> >>>     that are really important use cases for juju, like rails, node,
> >>>     mongodb, and so on, I'm in the "go where the upstreams and
> consumers
> >>>     of the technology are." camp.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> Brandon Holtsclaw
> >> Web
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> >
> >
> --
> Robbie Williamson <robbie at>
> robbiew[]
> "Don't make me wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
>  -Bruce Banner
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