Control file in tertiary description - “fully supported”

[Erich Eickmeyer]

Hi Marcia,

To answer your kernel question, we make no modification to the generic
linux kernel carried in Ubuntu, nor would we. Ubuntu has several kernel
"flavors" in the repositories to choose from, so there's no real reason
to do so. For instance, Ubuntu Studio carries the lowlatency flavor of
the kernel as it strives to have the lowest amount of hardware latency
possible for audio production.

Additionally, to become and remain an official Ubuntu flavor, each
flavor must use exactly the packages that are in the Ubuntu
repositories and not add additional repositories of their own. A
general idea of what it takes to become and remain an official flavor
is outlined here: RecognizedFlavors - Ubuntu Wiki. You can think of
official flavors of Ubuntu as respins of Ubuntu using the tooling and
infrastructure provided by Canonical, similar to how Fedora has
community-provided spins and labs done using Red Hat's tooling and
infrastructure.

Most of the time, a flavor is based on the desktop environment, but
there are two exceptions to this currently, formerly three: Edubuntu
and Ubuntu Studio, and formerly Mythbuntu. Mythbuntu was based around
the MythTV project, and Ubuntu Studio is for content creation and
creativity, and is the project I have been leading for over five years
as my background is in audio/video production as well as photography.

More answers in-line.

On Mon, 2023-08-14 at 00:17 -0400, Marcia Wilbur wrote:
> Hi 
> 
> Thanks for the response.
> 
> “Edubuntu does not develop its own tools other than for
> administration. Developing any actual applications beyond that is
> outside of our scope and is outside of the scope for most Linux
> distributions to develop their own software. You'll notice very few
> Ubuntu flavors develop any original software except administrative
> tools.“
> 
> Oh Ubuntu. Very few open to flavors develop any original software,
> except administrative tools.
> Makes sense. And I believe it from what I’ve seen.

It's not that Ubuntu doesn't allow it, but there's no sense reinventing
the wheel when your job is to maintain the distribution.

> So no contributing to the projects that you use? It sounds like you
> don’t do any of that, you maintain the distro. I see.

I typically contribute with bug reports and what-not, but I'm not a
very skilled coder. I write bash scripts and can reconfigure desktop
environments, make debhelper build a .deb package, and update the seed
files to keep the .iso images building and current. I guess that is
maintaining the flavor of the distro, but maintaining Ubuntu as a whole
takes dozens of people.

> So let me introduce myself. The software I develop it’s called
> respin. It’s a distro customization tool for Debian based systems. I
> took over the abandonware remastersys project in 2015. While serving
> as leader, dev for respin, the software was used for many respins,
> including one by Yale privacy lab and was the subject of a
> presentation at libreplanet in 2019.
> 
>  In fact, distros do develop apps around their focus. But rereading
> your message I see you mentioned Ubuntu apps, don’t develop apps,
> usually except for administration.
> 
> Other times the added value is in the organization and gathering of
> particular software for the spin.

This is especially true for Edubuntu and Ubuntu Studio, since they're
not based on re-spinning Ubuntu for a particular desktop environment
(even though Studio uses KDE's Plasma Desktop like Kubuntu). Edubuntu
and Ubuntu Studio are specifically reaching a target audience or
various target audiences. Edubuntu's goal is to be Ubuntu but for
schools, teachers, students, or any education community. Ubuntu
Studio's goal is to be for any content creator and to be able to be
molded and shaped into whatever that content creator needs it to be,
which requires a moldable/shapable desktop environment like KDE's
Plasma Desktop.

> Do you modify the kernel specifically for edubuntu or do you use an
> out of the box kernel as well?

Answered above.

> I’ve worked with a few corps and a lot of people making custom
> distros and maintaining a distro is time consuming for sure. 
> 
> I’m wondering what your current strategy is regarding abandoned or
> deprecated packages, included in the meta pkg. 

Believe it or not, germinate, the Ubuntu (or Debian?) system for
creating the metapackages from seeds, is very good at taking care of
that. Each time it is run, it will automatically remove items from the
seeds that have been removed from the repository. It's extremely
intelligent. So, when I modify a seed and run the 'update' command in
the 'edubuntu-meta' source package, it will look at the repository and
determine if any additions can be added or if anything needs to be
removed and do so automatically and add a changelog entry to correspond
with those changes. It's automated and very intelligent.

This Thursday (the 17th) is Feature Freeze / Debian Import Freeze,
prior to which I will be doing one final run of that update (unless
something happens and I need to do it again later) for 23.10. By then,
we should be finalizing what 23.10 will be looking like, and from then
until Beta Freeze in September we'll be working on filing bugs and
getting bugfixes in via patches or further syncs from Debian, if
necessary.

> Have you needed a strategy or do you simply use well-established
> projects to reduce the risk of deprecation or abandonment.

We mostly try for well-established projects, but it's hard to predict
what is going to heppen in the future. I call that "spherical-glass
vision."

> I mean, I’m not surprised by this at all in that Ubuntu, is a
> Community of its own. 
> 
> I had hoped to hear something like maybe you encourage people to
> contribute to projects that you use, because this would be some
> contribution as well.

Typically, when people ask to contribute, it's real difficult because
they introduce themselves and expect me to plug them in. Unfortunately,
that's unrealistic because, for instance, Edubuntu is the sum of its
parts, most of which are upstream projects. Back to your Dia example,
it's primarily developed at Apps/Dia/Development - GNOME Wiki!. 

> Maybe I’m just not familiar with canonical’s contributions to the
> community but I wanted to see if there were any contributions to
> educational software or original ed apps coming from canonical.
> 
> So I guess the answer is no. Canonical does not have any original
> educational project included in edubuntu, the pkgs named Ubuntu-edu
> are all third party driven projects without contribution. 

Currently, no, however Edubuntu, and seeing Ubuntu in education in
general, was one of Mark Shuttleworth's original goals back in the
early days (citation needed, I know). The founder of Edubuntu, Oliver
Grawert, works for Canonical to this day mostly on the Snap project,
and he's someone I consider a friend.

> I do want to thank you for your time and I appreciate all your time
> and effort! I know it’s not easy, maintaining a distro, especially
> when you’re using all these third parties. It can become time
> consuming. 

It can be, and we do it on a time-available basis. As stated in the
release announcement/release notes, it's very much a "labor of
love". Edubuntu 23.04 Released - Flavors - Ubuntu Community Hub

> At koc we coordinated with teachers, staff, volunteers, and others to
> evaluate and select software for the labs.
> 
> However, edubuntu seems like a great option for quick installs in a
> lab for underserved children.
> 
> I think you answered my questions with the exception of the kernel
> question.
> 
> Thanks

I do hope I answered your questions now. Feel free to reach out on the
mailing list!

Erich

> 
> On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 10:50 PM Erich Eickmeyer
> <eeickmeyer at ubuntu.com> wrote:
> > Hi Marcia,
> > 
> > Responses inline:
> > 
> > On Sun, 2023-08-13 at 22:28 -0400, Marcia Wilbur wrote:
> > > Hi Erich,  and thank you for the quick response.
> > > 
> > > In 2017, I was working on a project with kids on computers. They
> > > had previously been using Ubermix. 
> > > 
> > > What I noticed when I was evaluating the packages Ubuntu-edu-
> > > tertiary for example, was a deb archive categorized for a
> > > particular grade level, with other projects and software packages
> > > that had nothing to do with Ubuntu or ubuntu dev with the
> > > exception of putting  the flowers in the bag and rolling up a
> > > Deb.
> > > Not minimize the effort, but I wanted to know if there was
> > > anything contributed to those projects or anything original from
> > > Ubuntu devs.
> > > I’m sure gathering a list of decent software for students take
> > > some evaluation and coordination
> > 
> > 
> > From myself and Amy, there's nothing contributed to the included
> > applications. The extense of our work is here: Git : Code :
> > “Edubuntu Developers” team (launchpad.net)
> > 
> > > Have you done user experience testing or participation to
> > > generate that list?
> > > Just wondering. I do have a background in UX.
> > 
> > 
> > With our son being in elementary school while we were bringing
> > Edubuntu back and now entering middle school, we're able to
> > extrapolate his experience as a data point and he acts as a student
> > consultant. The 23.10 release is likely to look slightly different
> > in terms of what is installed by default and is very much work-in-
> > progress. For 23.04 we pretty much took what was already in the
> > seeds and evaluated from there.
> > 
> > > So my question was, when I saw all the KDE tools and apps,  other
> > > than finding, and categorizing good tools for students in that
> > > age range does the ed ubuntu community contribute to any of those
> > > projects, or does ed Ubuntu have its own projects/tools for
> > > education?
> > 
> > 
> > Edubuntu does not develop its own tools other than for
> > administration. Developing any actual applications beyond that is
> > outside of our scope and is outside of the scope for most Linux
> > distributions to develop their own software. You'll notice very few
> > Ubuntu flavors develop any original software except administrative
> > tools.
> > 
> > > Or maybe it’s just a few people on the project like you and your
> > > wife trying to still provide educational packages for Ubuntu?
> > 
> > 
> > This is mostly what's accurate.
> > 
> > > How many people do you have actively contributing to your effort?
> > 
> > 
> > We really only have about 3-4 currently: my wife (leading the
> > project), me doing the technical work (and obviously answering the
> > technical questions), and our son consulting on the student
> > experience and doing a lot of testing. We also have one person
> > contributing via website maintenance currently and as needed until
> > Canonical's Information Support department finally gets a full-
> > fledged website up and running for us as this one is just
> > temporary. You can see this on https://edubuntu.org.
> > 
> > Oh, and since this is on a mailing list, remember to reply to all
> > so that your response makes it back to the mailing list. Thanks!
> > 
> > Erich
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 9:59 PM Erich Eickmeyer
> > > <eeickmeyer at ubuntu.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Marcia
> > > > 
> > > > There's a lot to unpack here.
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, 2023-08-13 at 21:07 -0400, Marcia Wilbur wrote:
> > > > > Hi. I couldn’t help but notice the description in the control
> > > > > file of the tertiary Deb.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Where it states, this package depends on all the educational
> > > > > software for tertiary grade level education that is fully
> > > > > supported by canonical in the edubuntu community
> > > > > 
> > > > > What exactly is meant by fully supported? 
> > > > > What kind of support have you provided in the past?
> > > > > Maybe dev or qa for  defects or bugs?
> > > > > 
> > > > > For example, one of the packages listed in the control file
> > > > > as recommends not depends, but recommends, is Dia.
> > > > > 
> > > > > How do you support a user who is having a problem finding an
> > > > > option? Do you send them to the dia support or do you manage
> > > > > this yourselves? Do you contribute developers for bugs or
> > > > > defects? Do you have a bounty program or perhaps donate to
> > > > > the project?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I’m just wondering what is meant by fully supported. thanks
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > First of all, a little history.
> > > > 
> > > > That control file was revived and largely unedited from its
> > > > original form from 9+ years ago, and when it was originally
> > > > written, all of the software may very well have been fully
> > > > supported by Canonical. Unfortunately, I wasn't around at that
> > > > time, so I can't speak to that. However, I can speak to where
> > > > it is at currently.
> > > > 
> > > > Edubuntu, formerly known as Ubuntu for Education, was spun-off
> > > > into a community project around 2009 and is no longer developed
> > > > by Canonical. Additionally, in 2014, its final version (14.04)
> > > > was released before it went into a "maintenance mode" of sorts
> > > > and was deprecated until my wife and I revived it. Part of that
> > > > revival included bringing back much of what existed previously,
> > > > including the control file for the metapackages (the source is
> > > > edubuntu-meta) which is created from a seed. Getting the seed
> > > > to build into the .iso image and the metapackages was priortity
> > > > more than getting the descriptions updated.
> > > > 
> > > > Edubuntu, however, is not its own project as it is a flavor of
> > > > Ubuntu and doesn't exist as a separate distribution from
> > > > Ubuntu. Ubuntu's repositories exist as follows:
> > > > 
> > > > * Main (officially supported by Canonical, Free and Open Source
> > > > Software)
> > > > * Universe (Community Supported, Free and Open Source Software)
> > > > * Multiverse (Community and Canonical Supported, Non-Free
> > > > [proprietary] Open Source Software)
> > > > * Restricted (Proprietary/3rd-Party Supported Trusted Software)
> > > > 
> > > > Edubuntu is built from a mix of Main, Universe, and Multiverse.
> > > > For instance, Dia is found in the Universe repository
> > > > (community support), but gnome-calculator is found in the Main
> > > > repository (Canonical support).
> > > > 
> > > > Items listed as Depends and Recommends in control files of
> > > > packages simply list what packages are in relationship to each
> > > > other. Recommends are simply soft-dependencies, meaning they
> > > > can be removed without breaking the package that soft-depended
> > > > (recommended) them. If they were listed as Depends, then if
> > > > they are removed they also remove the package that depended
> > > > them. This is outlined in the Debian Packaging basics
> > > > here: Chapter 7. Basics of the Debian package management
> > > > system By the way, as a packager myself, this is something I
> > > > had to spend a couple years learning.
> > > > 
> > > > Bugs get filed via Launchpad and (hopefully) get reported to
> > > > the upstream developers, but that's not always guaranteed.
> > > > Sometimes bug triagers, if they remember to do so, will
> > > > recommend to the reporter to file the bug upstream to Debian
> > > > (since the vast majority of our packages come sync'd from
> > > > Debian each development cycle), and if it's not just Debian and
> > > > Ubuntu that's affected, then to the upstream developer. Part of
> > > > getting a bug fixed, and reporting a bug, is to be willing to
> > > > go all the way to report the bug. The vast majority of the time
> > > > people will report bugs to the distribution and consider it
> > > > "not my problem anymore, it's theirs to fix now" when that's
> > > > not true because at that point they're still consuming. If one
> > > > wishes to contribute by reporting bugs, that's how they
> > > > contribute, not consume.
> > > > 
> > > > I hope that helps clarify. I'm sorry if the descriptions were
> > > > confusing, we can definitely get that cleared-up before 23.10.
> > > > Remember, 23.04 was the first release in 9 years and it's not
> > > > even a long-term support release.
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > Erich Eickmeyer
> > > > Project Leader - Ubuntu Studio
> > > > Technical Lead - Edubuntu
> > 
> > 

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